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I'm going to a comped tournament in April, the main restrictions being minimal duplication (outside of troop slot), only one named HQ, no CtA allies, and battle brothers reduced to AoC. I'm aware that many people will be running Imperial knights, and was wondering if any fellow Daemon players had advice on how best to deal with them?

I'm thinking of running something like
Fateweaver
Khorne Herald (Hatred Loci, Greater, Lesser) on Jugger
Tzeentch Herald (ML3, Exalted) on Disc
2 Horror Squads
Seekers
Screamers
Flesh Hounds
Daemon Prince (ML3, Wings, Armour, Greater, Exalted)

The current solutions I've come up with are,

Hope to roll Touch of Uncreation(Toc)(fleshbane/armourbane) or Cleaving Strike(CS) (double Str on 6's to hit) on Khorne Herald, alternatively could take 3 lesser rewards for higher odds of CS

Could take 2 Greaters and Lesser on the DP, hope for ToC w/Staff of Change (+2 Str), could potentially roll for Iron Arm as well.

DP rolls all on Telekinesis, looking for Crush, Obj Mechanicum, Psychic Maelstrom as means to potentially hurt the IKs.

Hope for misfortune on HoTz or Fatey, then hopefully mass attacks from either Flesh Hounds or Screamers will chip off some hull points.

Roll for sacrifice on horrors/HoTz to summon more Khorne Heralds, take 3 lessers and hope for CS.

Fateweaver, Bolt of change hope for a high roll or hope to roll up Molten Beam, from the Pyromancy roll.

Prescience the screamers and hope for above average armour pen rolls.

Summoning/Incursion from horrors/HoTz/Fateweaver, summon plague bearers or plague drones and hope they can get some 6's to pen when they charge/get charged.

I feel like most of these strategies are largely dependent on, roll well otherwise you're in trouble. I think that a combination of psychics from Fateweaver and the DP (assuming some good rolls on telekinesis), could potentially bring one down over the course of a game, especially using the fact that the Ion shield gets moved in the shooting phase to negate it entirely. But I feel like against more (up to 4 in fact) I'm going to struggle to do anything more than just try to avoid a potential tabling.

The nice thing about the Grim and other psychic support is that you can have it be one whoever you need. Screamers aren't ideal vs a knight, but Nurgle drones are awesome with touch of rust, and you can give them at least a 3++ and probably a 2++. Those Knights will melt

Just be wary of the D

1 on 1, if your TOs allow non-codex sources, grab the newest White Dwarf and a Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage for your HQ. The Knight will need 5 to hit and then a 6 to take it out. The Bloodthirster should kill it afterwards.

You forget, B' lakor: S7 with armourbane. Also slaanesh D-Prince with Lash + misfortune or iron arm.

I rather send in about 7+ screamers with cursed earth and grimoire. Me take a while but the could kill it..

belakor pretty much.

skarbrand can do it too,

Fly around it? Seriously, why even engage? With witchfire powers and flight it can't really hurt you while you shoot it to bits from multiple sides.

Tarpit with summoned units if need be. I would not risk a prince or GD in combat with it unless I had to.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
belakor pretty much.

skarbrand can do it too,

Be'lakor is an option, however the tournament have ruled only one special character in a HQ slot, so it's a toss up between Fatey and Be'lakor, they have also house-ruled invisibility to be WS1 and BS1 rather than only hit on 6's. I think Fatey does more for the army as a whole (I was also thinking of taking the fighter ace upgrade on Fatey and hope for the +1 inv), but its defo worth considering.

 Massaen wrote:
Fly around it? Seriously, why even engage? With witchfire powers and flight it can't really hurt you while you shoot it to bits from multiple sides.

Tarpit with summoned units if need be. I would not risk a prince or GD in combat with it unless I had to.

One of the all knight lists I've seen going to the tournament is rocking a Questoris Knight Styrix, which apparently has a 5 shot Str8 Ap3 gun, and gains skyfire if it stands still (gulps!)

Yeah I think flying round annoying him with witchfires could work, then just go for the last turn contest (hoping I have enough stuff left alive to do so).

Oh try blood slaughterers. Many ws5 S10 attacks at I4. A pack will kill a knight. Needs grimoire or invisibility support to survive intact .

One of the all knight lists I've seen going to the tournament is rocking a Questoris Knight Styrix, which apparently has a 5 shot Str8 Ap3 gun, and gains skyfire if it stands still (gulps!)

That's a 30k unit using a 30k formation with 30k rules. Are you sure your tournament is 40k?

SJ

Summon seakers and movement block them so they can't go anywhere

You sure do love your seekers. What do you do when you have to play the scouring?

I hate Knights personally, and rather look at them and GW releasing all these massive models like Wraithknights and especially the Riptide rather....disappointed. Personally I feel like the game is devolving into a rock paper scissors gamestyle, where Knights are your rocks and anything but Paper (Or melta spam) is basically your go to playstyle, but paper is also tattered and possibly not functioning properly. Looking at Daemons and they are supposed to have some form of Anti armor within it, on a D roll for Greater Gifts or functionally sacrificing MCs which cost upwards of 350+ points just to "Potentially" strip a hullpoint.

And I say Potentially because Most Daemon MCs are garbage in comparison to the other ones out there on a basis of % luck rolls.

You get you're Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, give him double Greater rewards and Psyker ML3 and you dont roll jack for your Abilities, you have a 350 point waste of time. You look at a Riptide, you give him what he needs, he costs less, and functions 3x better with more survivability and defensive capabilities than pretty much anything in the Dex.

If you MUST fight a player bringing Knights, just go pure Summoning with 3 Nurgle Princes and Max Squads of Pink Horrors summoning More and more Pink Horrors. Drop Plague Bringers in his Deployment Zone and bog him down for a Great Unclean One to walk in and wack it to death or dont even bother sending in Melee Oriented units at all.

Your best bet is playing by the Scenario. Which adds to even more grins when your opponent gets mad his big bad robots couldnt kill all your units and table you

 krootman. wrote:
Summon seakers and movement block them so they can't go anywhere

I just realized the full implications of this. You can literally encircle a knight with 5 seekers so that it can't move at all. free units FTW

Again, White Dwarf. New D - thirst error with Greater Rewards.

I just throw a bunch of plaguebearers at it, and belakor if I -really- need it. Plaguebearers are an excellent tarpit, just be careful on spacing to mitigate stomp losses

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Again, White Dwarf. New D - thirst error with Greater Rewards.

??? You must mean the new Bloodthirster with Str D correct?

Yeah I was checking him out, but being reduced to I1 Means you are subjected to being Stomped and possibly hit by your opponent first. In the case of Knights you are most definitely getting stomped before you get to attack. Which is kinda stupid if you think about it, since Bloodthirsters are enately expensive to begin with, the fact they thought they would be too strong at Initiative with the plethora of Shooting attacks out there that would otherwise push wounds easily via Poison (DE Im staring you down right now >.&gt or simply pushing wounds via Fire Warriors or Riptides / Crisis Suits. There are still far too many ways to erase a FMC that is Assault Oriented, even the 3+ armor save is outdated for him at this point, or for that matter, MOST Khorne Daemons (Im looking at the now pathetically horrible Bloodcrushers) there just isn't a point in my oppinion of Taking the D-Thirster (that sounded terrible) simply because he would die more often than not before getting to hit anything Gargantuan or Knight Sized.

Against just Knights, it's 150 points less expensive just bare for the D-thirster.

At I4, the Knight will be hitting first but will need 5s to hit because of WS4 to WS10. 1 of those hits should get through. If he doesn't get a 6 immediately, it's D3 wounds that may or may not be saved by an Invul save.

The D-thirster will kill him back at the same time as stomps. Again, if he doesn't roll a 6, D-thirster could probably survive.

And you can take him twice for two HQ slots and still have room for other things on the list like Flesh Hounds to tie up shooty units.

It's basically my new list right now for 1850

D-Thirster
Lord of Change

11 Horrors
11 Horrors

3 Squads of 18 Flesh Hounds

Soul Grinder.

It is honestly doing very well. The weaknesses of my triple hound list against Knights have been essentially eliminated.

 GoliothOnline wrote:

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Again, White Dwarf. New D - thirst error with Greater Rewards.

??? You must mean the new Bloodthirster with Str D correct?

Yeah I was checking him out, but being reduced to I1 Means you are subjected to being Stomped and possibly hit by your opponent first. In the case of Knights you are most definitely getting stomped before you get to attack. Which is kinda stupid if you think about it, since Bloodthirsters are enately expensive to begin with, the fact they thought they would be too strong at Initiative with the plethora of Shooting attacks out there that would otherwise push wounds easily via Poison (DE Im staring you down right now >.&gt or simply pushing wounds via Fire Warriors or Riptides / Crisis Suits. There are still far too many ways to erase a FMC that is Assault Oriented, even the 3+ armor save is outdated for him at this point, or for that matter, MOST Khorne Daemons (Im looking at the now pathetically horrible Bloodcrushers) there just isn't a point in my oppinion of Taking the D-Thirster (that sounded terrible) simply because he would die more often than not before getting to hit anything Gargantuan or Knight Sized.

In a vacumm, yes, but the D thirster needs support. Grimoire, invis, shrouding- all tools to let him do his job. Screening is also important. Throw a chaff unit in first, eat attacks.

Even alone, the knight is going to be hitting on 5s, and praying for a 6. It's rough, but not undoable. That being said, tarpit the knight with lesser daemons, and then use the d-thirster to delete everything else from the board. For 275 points a 8A on the charge D weapon is AWESOME

Hmm never thought about using screen units to eat attacks first. Ill have to rethink my approach then

Now heres a question, if invisibility states you cannot be targeted by templates altogther, if your Hounds / Thirster is invis, and in CC lets say your opponent wants to try and Stomp your NOT invis unit. Now, because the Template unfortunately hits the Invis unit due to being under the template because you have 5 hounds in a line and Your thirster is simply behind them but in Combat, does he get hit or is he immune and also granting immunity from Invis to the hounds since there is no possible way to place said Stomp template without hitting the Thirster? (Just per say)

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Hmm never thought about using screen units to eat attacks first. Ill have to rethink my approach then

Now heres a question, if invisibility states you cannot be targeted by templates altogther, if your Hounds / Thirster is invis, and in CC lets say your opponent wants to try and Stomp your NOT invis unit. Now, because the Template unfortunately hits the Invis unit due to being under the template because you have 5 hounds in a line and Your thirster is simply behind them but in Combat, does he get hit or is he immune and also granting immunity from Invis to the hounds since there is no possible way to place said Stomp template without hitting the Thirster? (Just per say)

Invis doesn't say "can't be targetted by templates". It says "Must snap fire and rolls to hit on 6+ in combat". It is the snap fire rule that prevents templates and blasts from being fired at Invisible units, not invisibility itself.

As such in combat you aren't snap firing (because you aren't shooting) so you can still stomp invisible units.

 luke1705 wrote:

 krootman. wrote:
Summon seakers and movement block them so they can't go anywhere

I just realized the full implications of this. You can literally encircle a knight with 5 seekers so that it can't move at all. free units FTW

It's pretty amazing, and it forces them to waste a key turn killing a free unit. Depending on the mission you are playing, but it's a very viable tactic.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Oh try blood slaughterers. Many ws5 S10 attacks at I4. A pack will kill a knight. Needs grimoire or invisibility support to survive intact .

Bloodslaughterers are I4? Oh man I should have ordered 2 of them!

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

One of the all knight lists I've seen going to the tournament is rocking a Questoris Knight Styrix, which apparently has a 5 shot Str8 Ap3 gun, and gains skyfire if it stands still (gulps!)

That's a 30k unit using a 30k formation with 30k rules. Are you sure your tournament is 40k?

SJ

The rulespack can be found here

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dusscee96xapi0q/Vanquish2015rulespackV1.pdf?dl=0

it's a comped 30k/40k event.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
I hate Knights personally, and rather look at them and GW releasing all these massive models like Wraithknights and especially the Riptide rather....disappointed. Personally I feel like the game is devolving into a rock paper scissors gamestyle, where Knights are your rocks and anything but Paper (Or melta spam) is basically your go to playstyle, but paper is also tattered and possibly not functioning properly. Looking at Daemons and they are supposed to have some form of Anti armor within it, on a D roll for Greater Gifts or functionally sacrificing MCs which cost upwards of 350+ points just to "Potentially" strip a hullpoint.

And I say Potentially because Most Daemon MCs are garbage in comparison to the other ones out there on a basis of % luck rolls.

You get you're Slaaneshi Daemon Prince, give him double Greater rewards and Psyker ML3 and you dont roll jack for your Abilities, you have a 350 point waste of time. You look at a Riptide, you give him what he needs, he costs less, and functions 3x better with more survivability and defensive capabilities than pretty much anything in the Dex.

If you MUST fight a player bringing Knights, just go pure Summoning with 3 Nurgle Princes and Max Squads of Pink Horrors summoning More and more Pink Horrors. Drop Plague Bringers in his Deployment Zone and bog him down for a Great Unclean One to walk in and wack it to death or dont even bother sending in Melee Oriented units at all.

Your best bet is playing by the Scenario. Which adds to even more grins when your opponent gets mad his big bad robots couldnt kill all your units and table you

Agreed, I personally really dislike Imperial Knights (and Wraithknights), when 7th hit it basically took a dump all over Daemons and their ability to deal with any form of armour.

I'm considering ditching the DP in favour of Nurgle Herald and plague drones, be about the same points cost but has the advantage of automatic 6's to glance on the plague drones (waaay more attacks and wounds).

Best way I've found theoryhammering pure Daemons is to swarm it with summoned Screamers. S5 Armourbane may not be much but it's a hell of a lot more than the rest of the army gets.

CSM allies can help too.

Ohh this is for Vanquish! . I can;t go (baby due) but my theorycrafting went along the lines of belakor + bloodslaughterers = Profit.

Fateweaver and the a few DPs can simply roll up tzeentch and beam that sucker to death since they wont get their shields to block in the psychic phase.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Ohh this is for Vanquish! . I can;t go (baby due) but my theorycrafting went along the lines of belakor + bloodslaughterers = Profit.

Yeah I thought about Be'lakor but I think Fatey brings more to the army overall (reliable grimnoire roll for one). I think blood slaughterers looks interesting, a pair of them w/impalers is within the price range of a landraider, deepstrike them in, impale a knight and get that first turn charge when it gets tracked in.

I need to get IA13, can I take them with a Daemons army, or would I need a CSM detachment?

 A GumyBear wrote:
Fateweaver and the a few DPs can simply roll up tzeentch and beam that sucker to death since they wont get their shields to block in the psychic phase.

While bolt of change is pretty good, the other 2 powers are terrible and I wouldn't really want to waste his rolls on it, Fatey will defo be shooting out beams though.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Fateweaver and the a few DPs can simply roll up tzeentch and beam that sucker to death since they wont get their shields to block in the psychic phase.

Where'd you get that rule from?

 Udo wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Fateweaver and the a few DPs can simply roll up tzeentch and beam that sucker to death since they wont get their shields to block in the psychic phase.

Where'd you get that rule from?

The ion shield facing is established before the game begins, and immediately before the shooting phase. As the psychic phase occurs before the shooting phase...

I think I mentioned this tactic in my first post.