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Hi guys. Ive seen a lot of posts while researching stuff on this and other forums about kit bashing and I have a question about it. Can you kit bash a model and it still be legal to use in gameplay? Example: I dont know the rules but can you put dual pistols on a model? What about giving the model a weapont hat didnt come with the model itself? Like replacing a powerfist or powersword with something like a chain sword?

If the models codex says it can have the things you're putting on it, you can.

If you put dual pistols on a model, then its not a legal build.
Best to build the kit like it is, unless you want to do conversion.
i myself put dual plasma pistols on a tactical marine.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
If you put dual pistols on a model, then its not a legal build. .

Well, unless it's something that has access to dual pistols...

 insaniak wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
If you put dual pistols on a model, then its not a legal build. .

Well, unless it's something that has access to dual pistols...

Riiiiiight.

Mate, do whatever you like really, if your not massively into competitive play then chances are whoever you play couldn't care less about whether or not your model has dual pistols if you point out at the start of the game he only has a bolter or whatever. It's your hobby, do what you like with it.

The Gunslinger special rule is there for a reason. To give you even more of a reason to kit your guys out with Dual Pistols. The Badass factor alone is enough for me.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
If you put dual pistols on a model, then its not a legal build. .

Well, unless it's something that has access to dual pistols...

Riiiiiight.

Moritat Consul Legion Centurion - Legion Astartes: Crusade Army List, p17. Comes with a second bolt pistol, both of which can be exchanged for other types of pistol.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
If you put dual pistols on a model, then its not a legal build. .

Well, unless it's something that has access to dual pistols...

Riiiiiight.

Pro tip...know your stuff before mocking your betters.

Of course you can kit bash models; it's a major part of the hobby.

Legal Smeagal. These are your minis. Do what you want. Don't let ANYONE tell you that you can't do something.

Rule Of Cool takes precedence over ANYTHING. If you think it looks cool then do it. If you think it looks cool for your mini to have 2 pistols then do so. Games Workshop says there is things as "counts as". That is basically using any mini and saying it's something else. You don't need to have What You See Is What You Get. WYSIWYG for short. Only anal people are like that.

When I make my minis, I do what I feel at the time and what I think looks great. I don't care if it's WYSIWYG. That is why we have rules as "counts as" so we can use our imaginations. I have done the 2 pistol dude. It does look cool.

Anyone who says otherwise is WRONG. If they say so, ask them where their ammunition is. Ask them where are their grenades. Ask them why they don't have the proper grenades modeled. Ask them why they didn't model their psychic powers on their minis. There is SO MUCH a mini has rules for that is not modeled that a double wielding pistol dude should make no difference.

Only time it would make a difference is if you say double wielding pistol dude has a flamer then your other double wielding pistol dude has a rocket launcher, then you keep changing what has what. Don't be That guy.

Most people will be ok with it. Others are just to anal like I said before and then will not have answers but excuses why their armies are not exactly WYSIWYG.

I play leagues and tournaments, my army has to be WYSIWYG so that's how I built everything. I guess every TO out there is wrong. I don't model my psychic powers because they change every game and there's no way to represent them on the model. That's probably the dumbest reason I can think of to say stuff doesn't need to be WYSIWYG. Psychic powers, really? If that's the best logic you can come up with I don't even know what to say anymore.

 honeybadger33 wrote:
Hi guys. Ive seen a lot of posts while researching stuff on this and other forums about kit bashing and I have a question about it. Can you kit bash a model and it still be legal to use in gameplay? Example: I dont know the rules but can you put dual pistols on a model? What about giving the model a weapont hat didnt come with the model itself? Like replacing a powerfist or powersword with something like a chain sword?

For this I ask two questions: Does the codex allow the model to take it normally? If you can spend the points to get two pistols/ a powerfist go ahead. Second How do you want to run the model? Unless you pin/magnetize (both are useful and worth learning) you will be stuck running it the same way every game.

As long the pieces fit and look good and it at the least close to wysiwyg to the point everyone knows what it does after an initial explanation you'll be fine.

 flukezor wrote:
The Gunslinger special rule is there for a reason. To give you even more of a reason to kit your guys out with Dual Pistols. The Badass factor alone is enough for me.

Oh, the gunslinger rule!!!

Kit bash anyway you like.

If I remember right the rule is that so long as its made of GW parts its a fair model.
But then the other rule is feth the rules and make something really cool and badass.

I guess it depends on where and with whom you'll be playing.

At home or independent gaming store, with friends: it's up to you. You can build your models as you like. You can even use blank bases with pieces of paper on them, if your friends are okay with that.

Casual pick up games at an independent store: Generally, you should find flexible opponents, and as long as you talk things over with your opponents first, almost anything should be okay (no blank bases, though). Best to err on the side of clarity when possible, though.

A league with prizes, or tournament at an independent store (same for big event tournaments): Models should really be what you see is what you get, and follow the codex rules, i.e. no dual pistol tactical marine. Though, you're certainly free to kitbash as much as you want here within that, and use model parts from any manufacturer as long as they fit what they represent.

Any kind of game at a GW store: They'll definitely frown on you using other companies' minis. But I don't think they'll care if you use the odd non-gw part mixed in to mostly-gw minis, like a spellcrow gun or maxmini head.

If it's a legal loadout, its a legal model.

 Toofast wrote:
I play leagues and tournaments, my army has to be WYSIWYG so that's how I built everything. I guess every TO out there is wrong. I don't model my psychic powers because they change every game and there's no way to represent them on the model. That's probably the dumbest reason I can think of to say stuff doesn't need to be WYSIWYG. Psychic powers, really? If that's the best logic you can come up with I don't even know what to say anymore.

Anyways come on. We are playing with plastic toy soldiers. You going to tell someone you are not going to play plastic toy soldiers with them just because he made a mini with dual wielding pistols?

Davor wrote:
There is SO MUCH a mini has rules for that is not modeled that a double wielding pistol dude should make no difference..

Of course, the other way to look at that is: There is so much a mini has rules for that is not modeled that deliberately ignoring WYSIWYG should be avoided wherever possible for fear of making things even more confusing for your opponent...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jollydevil wrote:
If I remember right the rule is that so long as its made of GW parts its a fair model.

There is no such rule.

The issue you run into when building whatever model you happen to feel like is that things can get confusing for your opponent. If your models carry chainswords but they're supposed to be power fists, I'd be fine with that in a casual game. However, that would be if, and only if, every single chainsword in your army was a power fist.

I'm not saying you'd be intentionally trying to dupe your opponent, but it's pretty darn annoying when an opponent doesn't model WSISWYG. I once had a guy field 6 crisis suits. None had their weapons attached, yet they all had a different weapon loadout. Let's just say he did some pretty dirty stuff and I don't play against that kind of army anymore. It's just all too common that weapons that aren't modeled seem to magically change between turns sometimes, even if it's just the person genuinely forgetting which is which.

So yes, it's okay to take a bit of freedom in your modeling, but make sure that it is 100% certain at any point in the game who actually has which weapons, without your opponent having to constantly ask "now does this one's sword count as an axe or a fist?"

I would say go nuts within the confines of the rules. Look in my sig at my exocrine kitbash. Then go look up what the exocrine is supposed to look like. They are NOTHING alike in terms of aesthetics. BUT, mine has a pair of scything talons and what can easily be read by my opponent as the bioplasmic cannon an exocrine is supposed to come with.

Wysiwyg is not important because of tournys or rules or whatever. It's a courtesy you extend to every person you play with. Consider that on the table a player has a lot of their own rules to pay attention to plus all the crap from their enemies codex they might not be really familiar with. Being able to look around the table and read the units to make tactical decisions is important. Having to remember all the crap that is proxies by the enemy is both inconvenient and can be frustrating. Again, wysiwyg is a courtesy. It makes it easy for everyone involved.

"Oh it can be confusing". I can never understand this. When a lot of people memorize all the charts, never look at a codex for rules, can memorize what units take damage and keep track of ammo etc a double wielding pistol is confusing? Something is wrong there.

Just be upfront and honest. Don't make excuses. Some people prefer WYSIWYG others don't. The problem is when you tell someone THEY HAVE TO becomes a problem.

When you are in a tournament then yes you have to abide by those rules. If you are talking what is in the Big Rule Book, I don't recall seeing a rule in 7th edition saying you have to be WYSIWYG. I know in previous versions of 40K GW encourages "counts as". GW encourages converting. Unless that has changed in 7th edition there is no rule saying you have to.

If you are not in a tournament then we shouldn't be saying what someone can or can't do. If you don't want to play them, just be upfront about it. Don't make excuses on why it has to be "your way" (not directed at anyone) and not the other person's way.


*edit*

Just saw your post Lance. Very well said.

Davor wrote:
"Oh it can be confusing". I can never understand this. When a lot of people memorize all the charts, never look at a codex for rules, can memorize what units take damage and keep track of ammo etc a double wielding pistol is confusing? Something is wrong there.

I don't think its fair to say that because SOME people are uber nerd rules lawyers and memorize everything that it shouldn't be confusing for everyone else. 1 model is no problem. 1 unit with all the same change, basically the same thing. 1 or more units with multiple changes, well... Now I think your just being rude in your expectations of others.

Edit

I just saw that you just saw my post. Thank you!

Who is talking more than one unit with multiple changes? The original question was one mini and making it a duel wielding pistols. What is so wrong with that?

If we are talking multiple changes, that is a different story then.

That's the problem they were discussing. One model is not an issue but a lot are. Try keeping track of 4 guys with different load outs all in different squads and none of them are wysiwyg

Davor wrote:
Who is talking more than one unit with multiple changes? The original question was one mini and making it a duel wielding pistols. What is so wrong with that?

If we are talking multiple changes, that is a different story then.

Just, generally saying how kitbashing/conversions should go. It's good to lay down the ground rules for general courtesy.

If just plain modeling: do what you want.
WYSIWYG modeling is preferred for ease of game play, if two pistols do not make the model to appear to work differently than normal, then OK.
Anything different than that gets into the realm of getting opponent permission.
Consistency of the conversions help too so if you do something "not normal" it is at least easy to remember since there are not multiple versions (i.e., bolter-bolt pistol, hand flamer - las pistol, plasma pistol and needler...).

You wouldn't see many ork players without the ability to kitbash to save on really dumb pricing, such as the stupidly expensive mek guns, for a whopping 18 to 30 points on the field.

here is an example of a kitbash. Parts from all over, yet clearly representing something in game. You cant just add 5 weapons on something and use em.

mek guns, made 5 for the price of a trukk, one gun, and left over parts I had. Kitbashing is great for flavoring your army.

Awesome guns. Honestly kit bashing has been by far my favorite part so far. And nids are just plain awesome for it. A little green stuff and a knife can combine any nid piece with any nid piece and it all looks good.

By the way, there are many instances where a model doesn't come with all the loadout options. In these cases, you have no option but to kitbash (grav guns on bikes, for example).

I think in a friendly game, most units should be as WYSIWYG. Not every unit has to be exact, but if every unit is a guessing game, your opponents can make tactical errors that are frustrating. It's one thing to say a power sword is a power axe; it's another to say a heavy flamer is a lascannon. Just be reasonable, and try to keep your opponent's fun in mind.