Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Trying to decide how to assemble my new Fire Raptor, and I'm torn between taking quad heavy bolters or quad auto cannons with maleficent ammunition (grants rending). I like the thought of being able to pen AV 12 vics with the autocannon, but the extra shots with rending could prove more useful in the long run. What would you take?

Mostly depends on what you need. Rending AC are better vs av14 as they can pen it. Rending heavy bolters are better vs everything else.

Note that its not quad auto cannon but a twin linked auto cannon

so its 2 shots, twin linked, rending or 6 shots, twin linked, rending - both have the same AP

The decision is essentially about the following question - is more shots better than a higher strength.

If you are using the fire raptor to engage infantry, light vehicles or other aircraft - I believe the quad HB to be the way to go. Engaging medium/heavy armour on the ground - go the auto cannons

AV10:
s7 rending ---------------------------------------------------1/6 to glance, 1/2 to pen (rending does nothing)
s5 rending - 1/6 to glance, 1/6 to pen - 3 x shots - 1/2 to glance, 1/2 to pen (rending does nothing)

AV11:
s7 rending --------------------------------1/6 to glance, 1/3 to pen (rending does nothing)
s5 rending - 1/6 to pen - 3 x shots - 1/2 to pen

AV12:
s7 rending -----------------------------------------------------1/6 to glance, 1/6 to pen (rending does nothing)
s5 rending - 1/18 to glance, 1/9 to pen - 3 x shots - 1/6 to glance, 1/3 to pen

AV13:
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------------ 1/6 to pen
s5 rending - 1/18 to glance, 1/18 to pen - 3 x shots - 1/6 to glance, 1/6 to pen

AV14:
s7 rending -------------------------------------- 1/18 to glance, 1/9 to pen
s5 rending - 1/18 to glance - 3 x shots - 1/6 to glance

EDIT: Math shows that quad bolters vs vehicles/buildings are better vs everything in raw killing power other than av14 cause cannon has chances to pen it.

Your math is both wrong and biased. Wrong, in your fractions are wrong, and biased in the fact that you show "actual" chances for glance/pen for HB, but not ac.

Autocannons by far. The ability to engage heavy tanks is going to be worth more than the 2 fewer shots against infantry.

How's it wrong and biased. I just didn't count the actual ammount of shots - instead just multiplied HB results by 3 cause it has 3 times more shots. I wasn't counting the chances of doing N ammount of damage with each weapon. I was comparing the 2 weapon's effectiveness. And it's shown pretty well imo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH, found a mistake - forgot to include glances against av10 with bolter. So, they're better vs everything other than av14 cause can't pen - even though, they do more HP damage.

If the Fire Raptor had QUAD autocannons, I'd use those without even thinking.

As they are DUAL autocannons, the HBs become more interesting

 Massaen wrote:
Note that its not quad auto cannon but a twin linked auto cannon

so its 2 shots, twin linked, rending or 6 shots, twin linked, rendings

I'll double check when I get home, but I'm 90%sure that they are quad autocannons. When I read it last night I saw 'Heavy 4'. I'll check to be sure.

str 7 and str 5 shouldn't have the exact same chance to glance AV14. one just requires a six, the other requires a six followed by a three.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Autocannons by far. The ability to engage heavy tanks is going to be worth more than the 2 fewer shots against infantry.

It's actually 8 fewer shots.

Since the OP talks about Malefic ammunition, this is about the Chaos Fire Raptor. And the AC in that one are Heavy 4, twin-linked (CSM get the same as Space Marines but better - there is a first for everything!).
And to answer the question; don't take the rending upgrade. The points costs is just insanely high.

greytalon666 wrote:
str 7 and str 5 shouldn't have the exact same chance to glance AV14. one just requires a six, the other requires a six followed by a three.

Yep, you're right! So, it's 1/18 to glance, 1/9 to pen while quad bolters have 1/6 to glance. Edited the math post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, if it's 4-shot than divede bolter results by 2.

Aleinikov wrote:
Since the OP talks about Malefic ammunition, this is about the Chaos Fire Raptor. And the AC in that one are Heavy 4, twin-linked (CSM get the same as Space Marines but better - there is a first for everything!).
And to answer the question; don't take the rending upgrade. The points costs is just insanely high.

Oh, I thought it was the same of SM. In this case, autocannons

I wouldn't take rending period. It's too expensive for such little benefit

Alright, with the book in front of me, I was right andwrong. They're not quad autocannons, but a "Reaper Autocannon Battery", which is essentially 4 Autocannons haha.

My apologies for not clarifying I meant the Chaos Fire Raptor. I've not seen the rules for the Loyalist variant and assumed they were the same...

Upgrade to the Reaper Autocannon Battery and leave the Malefic ammunition at home.

Seriously Forgeworld, y you price rending so high!

Ok, new math for 4-shot AC vs 6-shot HB:

AV10:
s7 rending ----------------------------------------------------- 1/6 to glance, 1/2 to pen (rending does nothing)
s5 rending - 1/6 to glance, 1/6 to pen - 3/2 x shots - 1/4 to glance, 1/4 to pen (rending does nothing)

AV11:
s7 rending ---------------------------------- 1/6 to glance, 1/3 to pen (rending does nothing)
s5 rending - 1/6 to pen - 3/2 x shots - 1/4 to pen

AV12:
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------------- 1/6 to glance, 1/6 to pen (rending does nothing)
s5 rending - 1/18 to glance, 1/9 to pen - 3/2 x shots - 1/12 to glance, 1/6 to pen

AV13:
s7 rending --------------------------------------------------------- 1/6 to pen
s5 rending - 1/18 to glance, 1/18 to pen - 3/2 x shots - 1/12 to glance, 1/12 to pen

AV14:
s7 rending ---------------------------------------- 1/18 to glance, 1/9 to pen
s5 rending - 1/18 to glance - 3/2 x shots - 1/12 to glance


Puts the 4-shot AC ahead at vehicle hunting against any AV.

T2
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------ 2/3 regular, 1/6 rend, ID
s5 rending - 2/3 regular, 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1 regular, 1/4 rend, ID

T3
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------ 2/3 regular, 1/6 rend, ID
s5 rending - 2/3 regular, 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1 regular, 1/4 rend

T4
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------ 2/3 regular, 1/6 rend
s5 rending - 1/2 regular, 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1 regular, 1/4 rend

T5
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------ 2/3 regular, 1/6 rend
s5 rending - 1/3 regular, 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1/2 regular, 1/4 rend

T6
s7 rending ------------------------------------------------ 1/2 regular, 1/6 rend
s5 rending - 1/6 regular, 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1/4 regular, 1/4 rend

T7
s7 rending -------------------------------- 1/3 regular, 1/6 rend
s5 rending - 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1/4 rend

T8
s7 rending -------------------------------- 1/6 regular, 1/6 rend
s5 rending - 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1/4 rend

T9, T10
s7 rending -------------------------------- 1/6 rend
s5 rending - 1/6 rend - 3/2 x shots - 1/4 rend

Not surprisingly, bolter comes ahead of an AC against models with toughness value due to larger ammount of rends thanks to 3/2 more rate of fire. This matters more against targets without invul save, ofc.

The conclusion is simple: rending AC is better at vehicle hunting while rending HB is generally better against models with T value. However, INV save takes away part of HB advantage granted by rending.
If you don't take rending, go for AC.