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Losing a unit to the Dreadclaw is not the same as a deep strike mishap. When you place a unit for deepstrike, you are managing the risk of mishapping. The Dreadclaw can eat your dred just for fielding it in the first place.

Everyone except Peregrine understands that, but this is the second time that has been explained and the response remains the same.

It's almost like he is contrary on purpose..

@Peregrine.
Here's the point though you risk losing the dread AND still have exactly the same chance of loosing a 300+ unit that you would anyway.
So if you can recover from a 300point deficit, by loosing a unit in an ordinary fashion, then how pray, are you going to recover from loosing said 300pt unit AND the dreadclaw dread? You usually handicap yourself by 600pts Peregrine or just suggest that others do, otherwise they don't understand what the term expendable means?

As to the pod being worth something afterwards. What's it going to do? Cause D6 st5 hits a turn whilst having to be in melta/assault range to do so (and also risking penning itself)?Transport other units? It arrives turn 1, a unit will be able to embark on it turn 2, it can then move 6" and then disembark its cargo turn 3. So you've paid 100pts to potentially give a unit a 6" extra move on T3. Great investment that!


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Oh and peregrine - I play renegades. My units are cheaper than IG and orks.

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Do you also have a house rule that units over a certain point value can not suffer a "destroyed" mishap when deep striking? What about a rule that your favorite unit can ignore failed saves until the final turn of the game, since it's no fun if your best stuff dies too early?

Deepstriking a monolith (for example) near cover is your own choice. Deepstriking in the open is almost always an option. And as it is, the risk of mishaps is much less. This doesn't give you a choice aside from taking it or not taking it. It is literally a 1/6 of a chance of loosing it, not based on any tactical decisions of deepstiking too close to units or cover.
Also your opponent has invested absolutely nothing in killing it - unlike what they have to do to kill ANYTHING else.


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 Jancoran wrote:
a mobile SCORING unit for 65 points that allows you to drop and kill?

Like I say, live by the sword, die by the sword. With great risk comes great reward.

Every unit scores in 7th. And there are many, many units in the game which are not immobile and cost less than 100pts, so I don't see what you are getting at.

This is a risk you cannot mitigate/change in any way. It does not care about tactics or how you plan on using it. It is a straigh 1/6 roll. It is not affected by skill in the slightest.



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I ask you this:
Is a ferrum dreadnought with destroyer of cities and dedication of khorne for example, in a dreadclaw broken at 285pts? Is it even that competitive? Then why should it suffer from a 1/6 chance of dying before the game even begins?
Would you accept having to roll a 1/6 for every landraider to see if it blows up before a game begins? Or would that be just a little silly?

Or do you actually think this is a fair rule? Because if you do, there is absolutely no point in us discussing this, because we are so diametrically opposed and I cannot even begin to understand the thinking of somebody who thinks it is a remotely balanced rule. In fact if anybody thinks this balanced, I would have to seriously question their judgement of balanced.

Hi I play orks and you are complaing about something par for the course for us. Our looted truck is something we don't normally get like your drop pod and comes with painful drawbacks like half our stuff. Nobody makes you use it and I personally wouldn't let you use it because you feel entitled to change the rules to suit your vision of how something should be. I would like 30 point terminators and BS 3 orks, how does that sound?

Poly Ranger wrote:
@Peregrine.Here's the point though you risk losing the dread AND still have exactly the same chance of loosing a 300+ unit that you would anyway.

Sure, but the odds of suffering both of the unlikely losses are fairly small. And that's just part of the game. You can roll badly and suffer major losses that "shouldn't happen", and you have to deal with it.

And perhaps if you're so concerned about the possibility of losing a 300 point unit on the first turn you shouldn't put a 300 point dread in the pod? I'm pretty sure that CSM have cheaper dread options available if 300 points is too much of a risk.

As to the pod being worth something afterwards. What's it going to do? Cause D6 st5 hits a turn whilst having to be in melta/assault range to do so (and also risking penning itself)?Transport other units? It arrives turn 1, a unit will be able to embark on it turn 2, it can then move 6" and then disembark its cargo turn 3. So you've paid 100pts to potentially give a unit a 6" extra move on T3. Great investment that!

Or you could put a unit in the pod on turn 2, go into flyer mode and leave the table, then come back to deliver that unit at the end of the game for a last-turn objective grab (while simultaneously claiming/denying a different objective with the pod itself). I'm not saying it's the best unit ever later in the game, but don't act like it's just a pretty scenery piece with no rules value after turn 1.


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 Azreal13 wrote:
Everyone except Peregrine understands that, but this is the second time that has been explained and the response remains the same.

No, I just don't see a meaningful difference between dying before the game begins and dying 30 seconds after the game begins on the first shot of the game. Either way the unit dies before it has a chance to make any meaningful contribution to the game. There's a lot of nitpicking over the precise manner in which a unit dies uselessly because of a bad roll, but that's about it.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
That's still a dred gone to waste for nothing. Can the dreadclaw make up the 300+ points that it and the dred are worth on its own?

Can a plasma squad make up its points if all of the plasma guns roll 1s on the first turn? This is not a game where your units are guaranteed to perform well enough to justify their point costs.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
Losing a unit to the Dreadclaw is not the same as a deep strike mishap. When you place a unit for deepstrike, you are managing the risk of mishapping. The Dreadclaw can eat your dred just for fielding it in the first place.

And you can manage the risk of losing your dread by putting a cheaper unit in the pod, making sure your strategy accounts for the chance of losing it, only putting an expensive single-model unit in the pod when you know you absolutely need to deep strike it and can afford the risk, etc.

@ Orock
I have not said I would change the rules in games I play (although I do believe they need changing). Not once. I have not said I would houserule it. Nowhere in this thread have I said that.

As I've said before what I have done is thus:
-Share information from a FW reply.
-Stated that I believe this makes the pod unusable to transport dreads.
-Declared that I think the rule is rediculous.

Do you disagree with me on any of these points? Because that is all I've done.

I also believe there are ork rules which are too random. But that is not the point of this thread. The 'well there are other silly rules so it doesn't matter' defense does not stop this being a rediculous rule.

Also termis should be around 30pts (33 imo), but again - not the point.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Everyone except Peregrine understands that, but this is the second time that has been explained and the response remains the same.

No, I just don't see a meaningful difference between dying before the game begins and dying 30 seconds after the game begins on the first shot of the game. Either way the unit dies before it has a chance to make any meaningful contribution to the game. There's a lot of nitpicking over the precise manner in which a unit dies uselessly because of a bad roll, but that's about it.

That's not the issue here though, is it?

You're saying that having a Dread eaten by a Pod is the same as a DS mishap.

Twice now people have pointed out that it isn't the same, because a DS mishap is something that is in the hands of the player to mitigate, whereas Daemonic Possession is entirely arbitrary, and so bad as to essentially render the unit worthless for one of what many may consider it's primary uses.

It is like saying that someone losing a motor race because another car shunts them off the track is the same as someone losing the same race because they take a corner too fast and crash. The former is totally controlled by outside factors, the latter is far more in the hands of the individual.

Peregrine - I'm not going to use it to transport a dread. That is the entire point I'm making. From my first post. It is a rule which completely destroys any reasonable way to transport a dread. You don't have to tell me that I'm not forced to or that it's my own risk - I agree, I won't be using it.

Also if we are now talking about the dreadclaw picking up a unit turn 2, to fly away and come back end game to score on an objective... so not only have you lost the dread and are taking the dreadclaw away, but are now advising to take yet another unit away from a force which is already at a distinct points disadvantage?

And yes it is all down to 'rolling badly' but by taking a dread in a pod you are dramatically increasing the likelyhood of your 'rolling badly' affecting the game, for no benefit that you haven't already paid 100pts for.


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Oh and 1 more thing - remember the dreadclaw has to deepstrike. So if you are using your deepstrike defense still (which I disagree with), it has the 1/6 roll AND risks mishapping. Unlike any other deepstrikers.

I usually agree with you Perrie, but here you are just hands down wrong.

As others have said, mishaps are actually within your ability to control, and if it dies to a first turn lascannon hit then it at least absorbed said lascannon (not to mention that this risk is something pretty much all vehicles share).

There's a lot of random stuff that's no fun, like Codex Daemons random table that can randomly explode an enemy psyker or heavily damage enemy units for nothing either player did. The CD player can at least buy rerolls for his own units. Why is a Dreadclaw 1 in 6 so much worse, seeing as you don't even have to put a very expensive dreadnought in it?

Do you also think there should be a house rule that important units can never suffer "destroyed" results on the mishap table? What about unfortunate results on the damage table? Should I be able to force you to re-roll the damage result if your random lascannon shot destroys my 250 point tank on turn 1?

I sure do. If both players agree to it. That's why it's a houserule and not a rule. The whole crux of this thread is because the rule is such crap that no one would use it (as you say, why the hell would you stick a 300pt dread in a dreadclaw), well, some people want to be able to use their 300pt dread in a claw (because it's pretty obvious by the rules that that's one of their intended functions). And maybe their opponents think its pretty dumb that they suddenly get a 300+point handicap advantage because of a single d6 roll before the game even starts. If both agree that the game would be more fun if the rule was houseruled, then there ya go.

If both players though it was more fun that vehicles were only ever stunned instead of destroyed, then theyre perfectly within their rights to houserule that too.

Spetulhu wrote:
There's a lot of random stuff that's no fun, like Codex Daemons random table that can randomly explode an enemy psyker or heavily damage enemy units for nothing either player did. The CD player can at least buy rerolls for his own units. Why is a Dreadclaw 1 in 6 so much worse, seeing as you don't even have to put a very expensive dreadnought in it?

That's the entire point - you cannot put an expensive dread in it or you risk loosing it which defeats the purpose of it being able to carry a dread.
The 1/6 roll is worse because it happens before the game, takes nothing away from the opponents firepower, means you auto-lose an expensive unit and cannot be mitigated in any way. And as I mentioned above the fact that there are other ridiculous rules does not mean we cannot say that this is not a ridiculous rule.

 Peregrine wrote:
Your house rule is nothing more than "make my unit more powerful", which puts it in the same category as making my lasguns STR 4 because I want to kill more with them.

If you and I were playing I would suggest this rule to you, for no points, sometime around deployment.

After reading this thread I think that the dreadclaw has some of the best rules available and I would love to own four.

Should we just say 'well pyrovores are awful for their points so there is no point in discussing other units that are awful for their points'? Because that is the same as saying that we shouldn't be bothered about this daft rule because there are other daft rules in the game.


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pelicaniforce wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Your house rule is nothing more than "make my unit more powerful", which puts it in the same category as making my lasguns STR 4 because I want to kill more with them.

If you and I were playing I would suggest this rule to you, for no points, sometime around deployment.

After reading this thread I think that the dreadclaw has some of the best rules available and I would love to own four.

The dreadclaw is absolutely amazing when carrying infantry. I strongly recommend it for this role. Just never carry a dread inside it.

I think the dreadclaw kind of sucks for non infantry anyways. For 100pts more than a bare naked brute+claw, you can have 2 more dreads that deepstrike and have IWND. Way better investment IMO.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Twice now people have pointed out that it isn't the same, because a DS mishap is something that is in the hands of the player to mitigate, whereas Daemonic Possession is entirely arbitrary, and so bad as to essentially render the unit worthless for one of what many may consider it's primary uses.

The "ability to mitigate" deep strike mishaps is highly overrated. In theory you can aim for the middle of nowhere and avoid any significant risk, but in reality a deep striking unit that lands in a nice safe spot is probably throwing away the entire value of deep striking. So if you want to have a useful deep strike you're probably bringing the chances of losing the unit (whether by mishap or by arriving in a useless location) up to a level a lot closer to the 1/6 chance of losing the dread.

Remember, not everyone has design-mistake drop pods like loyalist marines. Some of us have risky deep strike options that make a 1/6 chance of losing a dread look pretty safe.

 Robisagg wrote:
I think the dreadclaw kind of sucks for non infantry anyways. For 100pts more than a bare naked brute+claw, you can have 2 more dreads that deepstrike and have IWND. Way better investment IMO.

It's probably why the rules are the way they are. The writer probably felt that it had more flavor this way than to say "no dreds". Unfortunately, what you get is a clumsy rule that doesn't quite serve a real purpose, IMO

 Peregrine wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Twice now people have pointed out that it isn't the same, because a DS mishap is something that is in the hands of the player to mitigate, whereas Daemonic Possession is entirely arbitrary, and so bad as to essentially render the unit worthless for one of what many may consider it's primary uses.

The "ability to mitigate" deep strike mishaps is highly overrated. In theory you can aim for the middle of nowhere and avoid any significant risk, but in reality a deep striking unit that lands in a nice safe spot is probably throwing away the entire value of deep striking. So if you want to have a useful deep strike you're probably bringing the chances of losing the unit (whether by mishap or by arriving in a useless location) up to a level a lot closer to the 1/6 chance of losing the dread.

Remember, not everyone has design-mistake drop pods like loyalist marines. Some of us have risky deep strike options that make a 1/6 chance of losing a dread look pretty safe.

The dreadclaw also deepstrikes, so if you want to use that logic then it suffers from the same problem on top of the 1/6 chance of being eaten. Therefore your own thread of reasoning demonstrates even further how much of a rediculous rule this is. And as most units do not have to deepstrike they don't have to risk it. A dreadclaw does.


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 Robisagg wrote:
I think the dreadclaw kind of sucks for non infantry anyways. For 100pts more than a bare naked brute+claw, you can have 2 more dreads that deepstrike and have IWND. Way better investment IMO.

If it didn't eat dreads it wouldn't be too bad, as they would get to assault from the pod and be protected by it before they do. Mayhem pack is probably more efficient though.

Poly Ranger wrote:
The dreadclaw also deepstrikes, so if you want to use that logic then it suffers from the same problem on top of the 1/6 chance of being eaten. Therefore your own thread of reasoning demonstrates even further how much of a rediculous rule this is. And as most units do not have to deepstrike they don't have to risk it. A dreadclaw does.

It doesn't have the same risk because the passengers (the only part you care about) can disembark 6" from the pod itself. This allows you to leave a much bigger margin for mishap protection and still get the passengers into the same location. Alternatively, since the pod is an assault vehicle, you can just keep the passengers embarked until next turn (with the pod as a meatshield to keep them safe) and add a 6" move to that 6" disembark distance.

Contrast this with something like an IG melta stormtrooper squad, which has to aim to land within melta range or it probably dies before it can contribute anything. That makes the scatter dice a huge danger. Scatter closer to the target and it's a mishap. Scatter away from the target and they're out of range. And there's no re-roll on the scatter dice or other mishap protection available to prevent those outcomes. That makes a mere 1/6 chance of losing the unit a pretty safe alternative!


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Poly Ranger wrote:
That's the entire point - you cannot put an expensive dread in it or you risk loosing it which defeats the purpose of it being able to carry a dread.

It doesn't defeat the purpose of being able to carry a dread, it just makes it dangerous. You personally might not believe that a 1/6 chance of death is an acceptable risk for the benefits of deep strike, but other players might come to the opposite conclusion.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:
I think the dreadclaw kind of sucks for non infantry anyways. For 100pts more than a bare naked brute+claw, you can have 2 more dreads that deepstrike and have IWND. Way better investment IMO.

It's probably why the rules are the way they are. The writer probably felt that it had more flavor this way than to say "no dreds". Unfortunately, what you get is a clumsy rule that doesn't quite serve a real purpose, IMO

Those infantry units could have more potential than an assault dread too. If you're going for an assaulty dread, you may as well use a maulerfiend. Not too much more expensive, plus siege crawler and magma cutters/tendrils. You lose 1 WS, but the addition of a 5++ is really nice

Right Peregrine, it looks like we're going in circles here. You think it is a fair and balanced rule. I don't. We're just going to have to agree to disagree, as it looks like neither of us can credit what the other is saying.


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 Robisagg wrote:

 Squidmanlolz wrote:

 Robisagg wrote:
I think the dreadclaw kind of sucks for non infantry anyways. For 100pts more than a bare naked brute+claw, you can have 2 more dreads that deepstrike and have IWND. Way better investment IMO.

It's probably why the rules are the way they are. The writer probably felt that it had more flavor this way than to say "no dreds". Unfortunately, what you get is a clumsy rule that doesn't quite serve a real purpose, IMO

Those infantry units could have more potential than an assault dread too. If you're going for an assaulty dread, you may as well use a maulerfiend. Not too much more expensive, plus siege crawler and magma cutters/tendrils. You lose 1 WS, but the addition of a 5++ is really nice

Maulerfiends are probably a better bet as you say (plus look a steal at 125pts). The issue I have with them (on paper - never actually used one) is their initiative 3. Means that almost all other walkers and most MCs hit first.

MCs barring DK are usually s6, so to pen theyre needing to Smash - only getting one attack, which has a 1/3rd chance to miss at best and a 1/3rd chance to fail to pen and then you get a 1/3rd chance to save the result.

 Peregrine wrote:


Contrast this with something like an IG melta stormtrooper squad, which has to aim to land within melta range or it probably dies before it can contribute anything. That makes the scatter dice a huge danger. Scatter closer to the target and it's a mishap. Scatter away from the target and they're out of range. And there's no re-roll on the scatter dice or other mishap protection available to prevent those outcomes. That makes a mere 1/6 chance of losing the unit a pretty safe alternative!

This might be actually the most accurate comparison to losing a dread before turn 1. if RNGesus isn't on your side you're losing a bunch of points and/or all the potential value that those points you spent could have generated. Putting basically anything in a pod means that you're sending an unit to die, at least when podding behind enemy lines. If I drop my company veterans too far from a MC or a tank's rear and they scarrer out of melta range a similar situation happens. I'm losing a of the value that those combi-meltas and meltaguns could generate and the veterans will just become very expensive cannon fodder.

There are multiple levels of danger when deploying units in this way. If you don't feel like gambling with your expensive units then don't. Find out what is the acceptable risk level that you're willing to deal with and craft your list accordingly. Personally, I'm just going to continue dropping suicide squads into enemy territory because it's almost always worth it to bet ~180 pts in a 1500 pt list to try to wipe out enemy armor and to draw fire away from advancing units.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
MCs barring DK are usually s6, so to pen theyre needing to Smash - only getting one attack, which has a 1/3rd chance to miss at best and a 1/3rd chance to fail to pen and then you get a 1/3rd chance to save the result.

Was also thinking of wraithknights (st10), wraithlords (st8), c'tan with/without godshackle (st8/7) and DP of Khorne with AoBF (st9). You're right though - shouldn't have used the word 'most'.


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Also let it be noted that those aforementioned stormtroopers are not paying 100pts to try and avoid the risk. A dreadnought in dreadclaw is. But doesn't get to avoid them anyway.

wraithlords are I3, so that is less of an issue than the one stated (I drop), and both the c'tan and khorne DP AND blood thirsters et al all go before an I4 dread regardless.

I would gladly be able to pay 20-30pts and be able to deepstrike the dread without the pod. As I can mitigate the DS mishap by placing the unit strategically but with lower risk. Then I've not payed 100pts and risk loosing the dread on a 1. I'm not worried about DS.


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nosferatu1001 wrote:
wraithlords are I3, so that is less of an issue than the one stated (I drop), and both the c'tan and khorne DP AND blood thirsters et al all go before an I4 dread regardless.

Good point. So it's only against walkers it's at a disadvantage really then. I may look into acquiring one!

On a side note - I really need to start editing rather than adding.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Also let it be noted that those aforementioned stormtroopers are not paying 100pts to try and avoid the risk. A dreadnought in dreadclaw is.

No it isn't, because the dread can't deep strike without the pod. You're paying 100 points for the ability to deep strike at all, a 3 HP AV 12 shield around the dread until you can charge (if you only care about melee), some extra "shooting" attacks, and the ability to transport another unit on a later turn if necessary or just claim/contest objectives. Nowhere in the rules were you promised a safe option for deep striking your dread.

But doesn't get to avoid them anyway.

See previous post about why a unit that arrives by deep strike within a transport and then disembarks faces a much lower mishap risk than one that has to arrive directly and doesn't get the 6" movement.

I was saying it doesn't get to avoid the risks, as in the 1/6 roll. It still is as risky despite paying 100pts to avoid such deployment risks.

I am fully aware that there is nowhere in the rules that promised a safe option of delivery (I think you've forgotten the OP I made and most of the posts afterwards - I'm pretty sure I've actually been saying the rules give a DANGEROUS delivery method... I have haven't I? Or am I seeing things? I'm rather confused by that comment now). I never expected one as even normal marine Pods with Inertial Guidance Systems still have a chance of going off the table if you are unlucky, and the dreadclaw doesn't even have inertial guidance, so it deepstrikes like everyone else. But a 1/6 roll on top of that before the game begins is my issue. Especially with expensive cargo.

DS mishaps aren't auto-deaths, like the 1/6.
-You have to roll a miss on the scatter dice
-The arrow has to be pointing in the direction of a unit or terrain
-You have to roll the correct distance on 2d6 to land over said unit/terrain
-You roll a 1 on the DS mishap table

Compared to
-You roll a 1 in deployment

That means if you chose to deepstrike a unit into a space which meant that if it scattered 2-12 inches in ANY direction for 360d it would still mishap, you would STILL only lose the unit 2/3x1/6 = 1/9 of the time. So if you placed your Deepstrikers in the riskiest possible position in the ENTIRE GAME, you STILL have less chance of loosing them than the dread.


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Now I've done the maths it highlights how broken this rule is even compared to DS in it's absolute worst possible scenario. Please do not ignore this point

Poly Ranger wrote:
It still is as risky despite paying 100pts to avoid such deployment risks.

But you aren't paying 100 points to avoid the risks, you're paying 100 points to get to deep strike at all.

I am fully aware that there is nowhere in the rules that promised a safe option of delivery (I think you've forgotten the OP I made and most of the posts afterwards - I'm pretty sure I've actually been saying the rules give a DANGEROUS delivery method... I have haven't I? Or am I seeing things? I'm rather confused by that comment now).

Then why did you say that you're paying 100 points to avoid the risks?

That means if you chose to deepstrike a unit into a space which meant that if it scattered 2-12 inches in ANY direction for 360d, you would STILL only lose the unit 2/3x1/6 = 1/9 of the time. So if you placed your Deepstrikers in the riskiest possible position in the ENTIRE GAME, you STILL have less chance of loosing them than the dread.

This analysis misses the fact that a unit can be destroyed in all but name by a bad roll that doesn't result in an explicit "destroyed" result on the mishap table. If the squad of melta stormtroopers scatters out of melta range then it's probably going to be killed next turn without accomplishing anything. So you've just spent ~100 points to absorb a bit of shooting, which is pretty close to getting nothing at all for those points.

Once you stop looking at only explicit "destroyed" results and consider the general concept of "threw my unit away and got little/nothing in return" then a mere 1/6 chance of losing the unit looks pretty safe. For example, deep striking IG units can be a frustrating exercise in hoping the dice don't screw you too badly, but you just have to accept that the price of delivering a unit right to its target is the significant chance of wasting that unit with a bad roll. And the results of bad dice are just as annoying as the results of failing that 1/6 roll and having the pod eat your dread. The subtle differences in the exact manner in which the unit is wasted really don't matter.

Ah, so a 50% chance to get to try again next turn is "effectively" the same as being destroyed and having zero chance of doing so? Really?