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 Eldarain wrote:
Is changing flight modes listed as a form of movement/requiring you to have not yet moved or merely done during the movement phase?

It's done "[a]t the start of its move".

It also lasts until the start of your next turn.

this thread sure is fun to read ;D

 luke1705 wrote:
All this thread boils down to at this point is this:

Is deep strike a move?

If it is, then FMC cannot change flight modes because they have already started their move by deep striking, and they are locked into swooping because they have to declare their mode before starting their move, and deep strike necessitates swooping to be utilized for that kind of deployment.

If it isn't, then the FMC hasn't started its move yet, and is free to change flight modes. Note that this would have much wider implications than just the Daemonkin Codex.

3rd possibility: "arriving" via deep strike isn't, but subsequent "deployment" from deep strike reserve is (because it is a variant of moving onto the table from reserves).

This means DSing FMCs arrive swooping but may immediately change modes at the start of their deployment "move".

This is a copy paste of my previous poste. I think it got skipped over cause i took awhile to write it and people were reading the bottom. If you read the previous post I did skip this.

I just wanted to add my 2c I couldn't get to sleep so I got rules reading.

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike(sometimes Deep Strike reserve)."
I believe this to mean that it is refering to the fact that placing them in Reserve at the beginning of the game and wanting to deep strike them is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve.

Immediately after this sentence it says
"Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."
I believe this to be units that you have started with on your army list for units such as Legion of the Damned.

Now lets assume your FMC had to begin the Game in reserve. Before turn 4 that would mean your FMC would potentially take 3 turns to get into combat from earning the Bloodthirster.

Another interesting thing to point out is Blood Tithe happens before Reserves are done and checking whether your Reserves arrive is before the movement phase but coming from reserves counts as moving because you see if any, all or none of your reserves come on, move your reserves onto the board, then you can move every other unit. I believe the transition from to see if your reserves arrive and having your reserves put on the board is the transition between Reserves and Movement phase. But the Blood Tithe is before this. Blood Tithe summoning is not put into reserves and then they appear. I also believe under deep strike where it says. "In the movement phase during which they arrive." Would make things easier if it actually said during which the turn they arrive. Alas it doesn't.

It's all confusing. GW needs more FAQ releases. I'll be coming back to this to see how far it's progressed when i wake up. sorry for a long post

Edit: Another thing I forgot about is when I started reading this before it become about FMC deep striking. Is yes Chaos Sorcerers can be put into units with Mark or Daemons of Khorne, however if he has a Mark he can only join units with Daemon of Khorne. On top of that Daemons of Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Nurgle with the IC special rule may join units with the Mark of Khorne but not Daemons of Khorne. Only 2 units with both are Warp Talons and Possessed so they can't join them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

Sigh. Despite the fact that this hasn't changed in a long time, people still fail to understand how Reserves work.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

We know the unit arrives this turn.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not in a later phase, but when they arrive.

This means that when the roll is successful, the unit moves on. Not later in the turn in a different phase.

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

The Deep Strike rules state that you can move no further. This means that Deep Striking is movement. As I showed earlier in the thread.
Please cite permission to move a unit twice.

Its still a bit dubious whether Deep Strike occurs during the Start of Turn phase, or during the Movement phase. Rolling for reserves occurs at Start of Turn, but only specifies that the models arrive 'this turn'. Then Deep Strike says 'during the movement phase that they arrive...' and 'counts as having moved' ...

FFS GW why can't you just write a damn 'Control Phase' or 'Maintenance Phase', or write Deep Strike rules independent from reserves as there seem to be more deep striking from not-reserves than from reserves these days.

How is it dubious? I quoted the rules that say the unit arrives, and when it arrives it's moved on.

Not in a later phase. Not at some random time during the turn.

On the joining a unit thing. You can't join a unit with a different mark. And you can't join a unit with a different daemon of X rule. You also can't join a unit with daemonic instability if you don't have it.

This rules out a lot of things. However you can for example join a soreror with the mark of nurgle to daemonkin flesh hounds without breaking any of those restrictions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Herald of slaanesh and nurgle have the daemonic instability rule ,so can never join a non codex daemon unit or a codex daemon unit of a different alignment.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Do you have a quote for that because the Deep Strike rules actually say "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." (Emphasis mine)
This clearly demonstrates that normally, Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase. Otherwise it would say something along the lines of "In the Movement phase during the turn on which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further.." You only make the actual roll for Reserves during the start of turn phase.

Sigh. Despite the fact that this hasn't changed in a long time, people still fail to understand how Reserves work.

At the start of your second turn, you must roll a D6 for each unit in your army that is being held in Reserve – these are known as Reserve Rolls. If the roll is a 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn.

We know the unit arrives this turn.

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below.

When they arrive, deploy them. Not in a later phase, but when they arrive.

This means that when the roll is successful, the unit moves on. Not later in the turn in a different phase.

So to reiterate, the Bloodthirster arrives before the movement phase and is not yet considered to have moved - going back to the Deep Strike rules they tell us the unit "count as having moved in the previous Movement phase". So if the model is on the table at the start of the movement phase and hasn't yet moved it can surely elect to change flight modes at the start of its move as per the FMC rules.

The Deep Strike rules state that you can move no further. This means that Deep Striking is movement. As I showed earlier in the thread.
Please cite permission to move a unit twice.

Sigh. You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. And in any case I don't even know why you're clouding the issue by bringing reserves into it. Summoning via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Reserves. If it did the rules would state the summoned units are considered as arriving from Reserves like the rules for Conjured units.

So even if Deep Striking is movement, that movement is considered to happen in the movement phase as the rules state. This isn't any different for Blood Tithe summons. The difference is that the Blood Tithe summons arrive during the previous phase (start of turn) and can therefore elect to change flight modes at the start of that move.

And it's quite easy to move twice in a turn - it's called a Run move.

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sigh. You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. And in any case I don't even know why you're clouding the issue by bringing reserves into it. Summoning via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Reserves. If it did the rules would state the summoned units are considered as arriving from Reserves like the rules for Conjured units.

Oh I can help with that: BRB135, "Arriving from Reserves":
"[...] At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, the unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn"
a bit further down on the same page: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any ariving Reserves, before any other units can move"...all at the start of the turn, no mention of a movement phase whatsoever.

as for why deep strike always necessitate reserves and equals deep strike reserves, look at page 162. I won't repeat the quote, you will find all relevant information here (spoiler): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

Kisada II wrote:
Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

There is no duration restriction. It only says "it always counts as being in Swooping mode" when arriving. it's just a default state.

Nothing is locked until modes are declared: "At the start of its move, a Flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" (BRB 68)

This would be the deployment "move" immediately after "arrival" from deep strike reserves (BRB 135).

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

There is no duration restriction. It only says "it always counts as being in Swooping mode" when arriving. it's just a default state.

Nothing is locked until modes are declared: "At the start of its move, a Flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" (BRB 68)

This would be the deployment "move" immediately after "arrival" from deep strike reserves (BRB 135).

It's basically in Swooping Mode until the start of your next move. Since it always counts as being in Swooping mode when arriving, you'll have to wait until your next move to declare that it's going to be gliding instead.

 Nehekhare wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

Sigh. You still haven't managed to provide a quote to back up your claim that reserves arrive before the movement phase. All you've managed to establish is that they arrive that turn. And in any case I don't even know why you're clouding the issue by bringing reserves into it. Summoning via the Blood Tithe has nothing to do with Reserves. If it did the rules would state the summoned units are considered as arriving from Reserves like the rules for Conjured units.

Oh I can help with that: BRB135, "Arriving from Reserves":
"[...] At the start of your third turn, roll for any units remaining in Reserve. If the roll is a 3 or more, the unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn"
a bit further down on the same page: "Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any ariving Reserves, before any other units can move"...all at the start of the turn, no mention of a movement phase whatsoever.

as for why deep strike always necessitate reserves and equals deep strike reserves, look at page 162. I won't repeat the quote, you will find all relevant information here (spoiler): http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

Yeah there's also no mention of the start of the turn phase, unless you're counting those coming in automatically on turn 4.

The view that arriving via deep strike always involves coming from reserves is a common misconception arising from being unable to distinguish between the act of deep striking and being placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the game. Just consider Gate of Infinity. Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
The view that arriving via deep strike always involves coming from reserves is a common misconception arising from being unable to distinguish between the act of deep striking and being placed in deep strike reserves at the start of the game.

I think you have hereby proven yourself as unable to distinguish between being placed in Reserves "at the start of the game" and units "starting" or "beginning the game" in deep strike reserves.

 Tonberry7 wrote:
Again, units summoned via the blood tithe aren't coming from reserve otherwise it would say so.

I'm not saying they do.

I'm saying that any argument that allows Blood Tithe'd FMCs to assault the turn after they arrive can be used for any Deep Striking FMC.

The problem with your entire argument is that it hinges on Blood Tithe'd FMCs as "special" and that they can ignore rules because you want them to.

 Nehekhare wrote:

Kisada II wrote:
Still need to address the FMC rule that flight modes are locked in until the start of your next turn.
And the duration of the Swooping restriction from arriving via Deep strike

To be clear: I want this to work, I would love to see the return of the bloodthirster

There is no duration restriction. It only says "it always counts as being in Swooping mode" when arriving. it's just a default state.

Nothing is locked until modes are declared: "At the start of its move, a Flying monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn" (BRB 68)

This would be the deployment "move" immediately after "arrival" from deep strike reserves (BRB 135).

Nothing is locked in until modes are declared, but the rules declare it's in swooping mode when it arrives.
You keep stating that it's just the "default state" like it's a special state that exists outside of all rules but can you give some rules to back this up?

In my book it doesn't read "It always counts as swooping when it arrives but this swooping is considered to have happened in the previous turn so you can change it this turn"

The rules seem clearly intended for using moving in from reserves (that deployment move you keep mentioning), otherwise the rule literally does nothing at all.

By your interpretation it arrives in "Swooping mode" (different from the only definition for swooping mode for FMC's because that one lasts until the start of the next turn) but then makes a deployment move which then MUST declare it's mode because it's starting a move, so where is this "default state" getting applied and for what purpose. Everyone stating that it's just in case someone doesn't say which mode they are in, but that wouldn't apply because upon setting it on the table (deployment move) they MUST declare?

So either the rule has does nothing what so ever and only exists to create confusion and arguments, or it puts you in swooping mode for that deployment which would then last until the start of your next turn.

Just a little thing to add...

I actually just quickly combed Deep Strike Reserve through all the epubs that GW produces and what I've found is that on the rules where they clearly intend you to be coming from reserves, such as Planet Strike Objectives, Conjuration psychic powers, Descent of Angels Warlord Trait, and so on, they've explicitly stated Deep Strike Reserves. Places where they do not intend reserves (Grav-chute insertion, Skies of Blood, Veil of Darkness, etc.), they have only said Deep Strike.

 minionboy wrote:
Just a little thing to add...

I actually just quickly combed Deep Strike Reserve through all the epubs that GW produces and what I've found is that on the rules where they clearly intend you to be coming from reserves, such as Planet Strike Objectives, Conjuration psychic powers, Descent of Angels Warlord Trait, and so on, they've explicitly stated Deep Strike Reserves. Places where they do not intend reserves (Grav-chute insertion, Skies of Blood, Veil of Darkness, etc.), they have only said Deep Strike.

They've also said Deep Strike is sometimes called Deep Strike Reserves, so their wording tends to be all over the place.

To go further on this, you Arrive from reserves when you make the roll, are summoned or whatever, your move is the deep strike placement, or the move onto the table. Reserves is clear that your reserve move is walking on, or deep striking.

Here is a thing that can potentially hold this together.
The Rule Intereceptor allows you to shoot at a unit that has arrived from reserve after the movement phase.

Someone mentioned this before. Stormraven Gunships have a special rule called Skies of Fury.
If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark but they do as follows:
Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved that turn adn deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. If the unit scatters, every disembarking model must immediately take a Dangerous Terrain tests. If any of the models cannot be deployed, the entire unit is destroyerd. Models that disembark using the skies of fury special rule cannot charge in the turn that they do so.

So lets say you disembark like this the turn after the stormraven arrives. This would mean that the models disembarking would somehow be classified as coming in from reserves but this can't be true because they are technically classified as on the board.

Kisada II wrote: the rules declare it's in swooping mode when it arrives.
The rules seem clearly intended for using moving in from reserves (that deployment move you keep mentioning), otherwise the rule literally does nothing at all.
So either the rule has does nothing what so ever and only exists to create confusion and arguments, or it puts you in swooping mode for that deployment which would then last until the start of your next turn.

The rule simply sets a default state to apply when there would otherwise be none at all, and if you read carefully, you'll see that it does only apply to "arriving" FMCs, not "moving" (which, as per the rules for reserves, happens after arrival and allows for change of modes). There would be more arguments without such a state (such as: what happens when the FMC scatters onto other models...mishap or ignore, neither or both?).

minionboy wrote:
I actually just quickly combed Deep Strike Reserve through all the epubs that GW produces and what I've found is that on the rules where they clearly intend you to be coming from reserves, such as Planet Strike Objectives, Conjuration psychic powers, Descent of Angels Warlord Trait, and so on, they've explicitly stated Deep Strike Reserves. Places where they do not intend reserves (Grav-chute insertion, Skies of Blood, Veil of Darkness, etc.), they have only said Deep Strike.

The rule simply sets a default state to apply when there would otherwise be none at all, and if you read carefully, you'll see that it does only apply to "arriving" FMCs, not "moving" (which, as per the rules for reserves, happens after arrival and allows for change of modes). There would be more arguments without such a state (such as: what happens when the FMC scatters onto other models...mishap or ignore, neither or both?). 

Arriving by DS is moving the rules are 100% clear on this. So we are forced to declare the FMC is swooping before it moves onto the table. How long does that declaration last. Using actual rules not made up stuff.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving by DS is moving the rules are 100% clear on this. So we are forced to declare the FMC is swooping before it moves onto the table. How long does that declaration last. Using actual rules not made up stuff.

I'm afraid you made up the arriving part yourself. the rest is correct.

"deployment" is a move, "arriving" is not. The reserve rules (BRB 135) make that very clear:

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

INTERPRETATION:
"Arrive" only means a unit is now ready to be deployed (determined either by rolling for reserves or by effects that cause units to "arrive immediately", eg. summoning).
It thus also means the unit is technically either still in Reserves, or now placed in Reserves (in case it didn't exist before).
This is when FMCs arriving via deep strike are in Swooping mode.

There is no restriction whatsoever about how long this mode must be kept, only that it "counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68) at arrival.
Just like it would be in gliding mode at the start of the turn if it chose to use it last turn.

Immediately after arrival, the unit is deployed. This is a move as per the reserve rules above.
Because it is the very first "move" made by a deep striking FMC, it may now change flight modes from the default swooping to gliding, which is kept until next turn:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

And a deep striking FMC has no opportunity to move the turn it arrives in, hence the relevance of the default state.

 Nehekhare wrote:
Immediately after arrival, the unit is deployed.

You mean as part of arrival. When a unit arrives, do X means that X is part of arriving.

This is a move as per the reserve rules above.
Because it is the very first "move" made by a deep striking FMC, it may now change flight modes from the default swooping to gliding, which is kept until next turn:

So where's your permission to move twice in a turn? Deep Striking is absolutely a move, and you're attempting to do another move.

 Nehekhare wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Arriving by DS is moving the rules are 100% clear on this. So we are forced to declare the FMC is swooping before it moves onto the table. How long does that declaration last. Using actual rules not made up stuff.

I'm afraid you made up the arriving part yourself. the rest is correct.

"deployment" is a move, "arriving" is not. The reserve rules (BRB 135) make that very clear:

"When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table. The player can then proceed to move his other units as normal. Note that you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move."

INTERPRETATION:
"Arrive" only means a unit is now ready to be deployed (determined either by rolling for reserves or by effects that cause units to "arrive immediately", eg. summoning).
It thus also means the unit is technically either still in Reserves, or now placed in Reserves (in case it didn't exist before).
This is when FMCs arriving via deep strike are in Swooping mode.

There is no restriction whatsoever about how long this mode must be kept, only that it "counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68) at arrival.
Just like it would be in gliding mode at the start of the turn if it chose to use it last turn.

Immediately after arrival, the unit is deployed. This is a move as per the reserve rules above.
Because it is the very first "move" made by a deep striking FMC, it may now change flight modes from the default swooping to gliding, which is kept until next turn:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn." (BRB 68)

Cool just a few concequences of your argument. First Coteaz IBEY rule never works as it is triggered by arrival within 12" and according to the deployment not being part of arrival argument you would never arrive on the board. Also my statement remains true you are declared swooping just before deploying (i.e. moving) onto the table and are thus stuck swooping until the start of your following turn.

Alright, I think I have come up with an answer to satisfy pure RAW

Under FMC right under the header it states:

"Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules."

The Daemonkin codex states the BT arrives by deepstrike, no more no less. Under deep strike it states:

"When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve)."
-so, the first condition "When placing a unit in Reserve" is not met and therefore the condition "called Deep Strike Reserve" is not applied

Under FMC deployment there is actually no case for special deployment to a FMC that is performing 'Deep Strike', so technically the FMC follows the deployment rules for a Monstrous Creature and at this point swooping nor gliding can be declared as this rule has not been triggered yet because it has not moved yet (which is the trigger for the flight change rule)

Under flight modes it says "Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes: Swooping or Gliding."

Deep strike counts as a move (many good arguments made from your previous posts) so at this point the 'Changing Flight Mode' comes into effect:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until
the start of its next turn."

So, at the start of the 'deep strike move' Swooping or Gliding is declared, this lasts until the start of the next turn.

Comments?

My only comment is that you should have read the thread before posting.

rigeld2 wrote:
My only comment is that you should have read the thread before posting.

Can you please point me to where someone in the whole thread has the same idea that a FMC uses MC rules for deployment because 'Deep Strike' is not a case under FMC deployment rules? And thus swooping or gliding can be declared before the deep strike move? Cause I read the whole thread before posting and pretty sure it is an original idea (though I could be mistaken)

EDIT - The special point I am making here is several times it was mentioned that there is not 'deep strike' option under FMC deployment rule...but there IS if you consider that the FMC is a MC and so deep strike would just follow the normal rules for a MC deep striking, which would mean that swooping is not declared for the rest of the turn

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641693.page#7706381
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/641693.page#7713698

While not literally the same argument, your argument also hinges on arriving by Deep Strike not triggering the restriction to arrive Swooping. Which is what's been argued.

Arguing that they're MCs for this is both incorrect and irrelevant.