rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I did read your post, and yes, you did attempt to address it. Unfortunately, as I said, all you managed to establish is that reserves arrive that turn, not that they arrive before the Movement phase. But why are you even continuing to discuss Reserves? You've already conceded that units summoned via the Blood Tithe aren't coming from reserve so it's really not relevant to the issue of the of the Bloodthirster being summoned this way. However, just to draw a line under this issue, I'll run you through the RAW.

I wasn't the first person who brought it up. I was responding to you arguing about Reserves.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/641693/7715421.page

Well, the rules state that they move "onto the table as described below". Let's then look below where the rules say "When a Reserves unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player’s table edge". So when do we move units? In the Movement phase. The rules also state that "A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve". This is because it has missed the start of the turn phase, having entered play at the start of the Movement phase. We already know Deep Striking units arrive during the Movement Phase; why would it be any different for units in Reserve moving on from the board edge?

So you are actually contending that Reserves that arrive on T4 arrive at a different time than those on turns 2 and 3? And Ongoing Reserves also arrive at a different time than normal Reserves?

In actual fact, the way the Reserves rules are written is very compatible with them arriving during the Movement Phase and there are no rules or conflicts suggesting that this isn't the case. The only explicit restriction is that you must move all your arriving Reserves before moving your other units but this is not at all incompatible with the Reserves arriving during the Movement Phase; indeed if they were arriving during the start of the turn phase this instruction would be redundant and unnecessary.

The fact that it's redundant doesn't mean anything.
It's a reminder more than anything else - that you can't move a unit out of the way and then move Reserves on.

I also love how you snipped part of my post out that addressed literally every word you typed in this one before you even typed it.

Do Reserves arrive on turn 4 at the same point in the turn that they do on turns 2 and 3? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.
Do Ongoing Reserves arrive at the same point in the turn as regular Reserves? If you say no, be prepared to back up your answer with rules. I'd love an answer to this question.

1. Apologies for not addressing your post straight away, however, I have a life outside of internet forums and can't be on here all day every day.

Even though you replied to other comments twice before now? Yeah, okay.

2. I thought we had agreed that Reserves were irrelevant to the topic under discussion, namely a Bloodthirster being summoned via the Blood Tithe and whether or not it can change flight modes in the turn in which it arrives. Yet you still continue to discuss Reserves, in fact it's the only thing you seem able to discuss.

No, we never "agreed" to that - you made that assertion after you brought it up and I showed you that you were wrong.
It's not irrelevant, no matter how much you want to pretend it is.

3. I'm going to choose not to answer your questions, and not because my answers would "prove me wrong" (they wouldn't). Firstly, the answers would be as irrelevant as the questions themselves, but also because your entire post offers nothing of merit in terms of the rules debate. You haven't presented any new arguments discussing the topic, in fact you haven't offered any arguments at all. All you have posted are a few questions that have nothing to do with a Blood Tithe Bloodthirster. To be honest I had expected some semblance of a reasoned response, but your posts are starting to sound like Flingitnow's and quite frankly smack of desperation. If you have a fresh argument regarding the rules that you can back up with citations, please do present it, but just to respond with questions is weak in terms of presenting a case.

I've presented the rules, you've ignored the citations. Instead of discussing rules, you simply tell me I'm wrong. When I find an alternate method of explaining to you (asking questions) you pretend it's irrelevant and want to ignore it.
Poor debate form sir.

Finally, I've shown in this thread, over the course of several posts, with citations and explanations, how the RAW allow a Bloodthirster being summoned via the Blood Tithe to change flight modes during the same turn and therefore charge the next turn.

That's incorrect - you've posted citations and assertions, but they do not match with the actual rules, especially since you must ignore rules to get your assertions to be correct.

Nothing you've posted (or any other posts) has proven this to be incorrect; if you can come up with any new (and valid) points please let me know and I'll have a look but until then there's it's fairly clear that there's little point in discussing it further. You've obviously decided for some reason that you don't like the fact that the Blood Tithe Bloodthirster can do this by RAW and will argue against it no matter what, even though your counter-arguments to date have involved irrelevant topics, unsafe assumptions, and the outright ignoring of some rules.

a) Insinuating bias when there is none is rude.
b) Cite a single rule my arguments ignore. Just one please - or retract the statement.
c) You've asserted and literally failed to prove that the Blood Tithe'd Thirster is unique in its arrival prior to the movement phase. As a matter of fact, this isn't true. This is why the Reserves argument is relevant - this "uniqueness" is core to your argument and trivial to debunk, but you'd rather ignore that.

So unless GW issue a rules errata, I'm going to continue to summon Blood Tithe Bloodthirsters and then charge them in the next turn. And no, this won't be HIWPI or a House Rule, but a perfectly permissible tactic fully compatible with the RAW as they stand.

I can't help it if you decide to cheat, but please don't present that as actual rules as they're written - because they're not. As I've (and others have) shown.

So, you have nothing resembling a relevant argument to add then? I didn't think so. Thank you for proving my point, it seems we're finished here. 

I did enjoy your accusation of cheating though. Cheating does involve breaking the rules though - which I'm not.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, you have nothing resembling a relevant argument to add then? I didn't think so. Thank you for proving my point, it seems we're finished here. 

I did enjoy your accusation of cheating though. Cheating does involve breaking the rules though - which I'm not.

I assume this is you conceding. There is nothing unique about the Blood tithe summoning beyond not starting in reserves nor rolling for arrival. You go ahead with your houserule when you summon then move your BT and then charge the following turn. Don't be surprised if your opponents give you funny looks or call you on your cheatingg. But good luck with your future endeavours.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, you have nothing resembling a relevant argument to add then? I didn't think so. Thank you for proving my point, it seems we're finished here. 

I did enjoy your accusation of cheating though. Cheating does involve breaking the rules though - which I'm not.

I assume this is you conceding. There is nothing unique about the Blood tithe summoning beyond not starting in reserves nor rolling for arrival. You go ahead with your houserule when you summon then move your BT and then charge the following turn. Don't be surprised if your opponents give you funny looks or call you on your cheatingg. But good luck with your future endeavours.

 Ignatius wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, you have nothing resembling a relevant argument to add then? I didn't think so. Thank you for proving my point, it seems we're finished here. 

I did enjoy your accusation of cheating though. Cheating does involve breaking the rules though - which I'm not.

I assume this is you conceding. There is nothing unique about the Blood tithe summoning beyond not starting in reserves nor rolling for arrival. You go ahead with your houserule when you summon then move your BT and then charge the following turn. Don't be surprised if your opponents give you funny looks or call you on your cheatingg. But good luck with your future endeavours.

Don't break a YMDC tenant and accuse people of cheating just because they aren't convinced by your argument.

Have we got a consensus yet ladies and gents? 

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, you have nothing resembling a relevant argument to add then? I didn't think so. Thank you for proving my point, it seems we're finished here. 

I did enjoy your accusation of cheating though. Cheating does involve breaking the rules though - which I'm not.

I assume this is you conceding. There is nothing unique about the Blood tithe summoning beyond not starting in reserves nor rolling for arrival. You go ahead with your houserule when you summon then move your BT and then charge the following turn. Don't be surprised if your opponents give you funny looks or call you on your cheatingg. But good luck with your future endeavours.

Don't break a YMDC tenant and accuse people of cheating just because they aren't convinced by your argument.

So got any argument as to why a summoned BT is different from one that arrived from DS reserve in terms of what actions they can take? Anything?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Have we got a consensus yet ladies and gents? 

In terms of RaW yes we have a Consensus. However some people think their made up wish list of rules that they can move the same turn they arrive by DS take precedent over RaW.

RaW there is nothing different between a Blood Tithe thirster and one that arrived by DS reserves. They arrive at the same time and nothing in the Blood Tithe summoning rules changes what actions you can make regardless of what people want them to say.

 Formosa wrote:
thanks for the reply fling, now seriously get off the bleeding internet for 10 mins and relax, have a smoke or whatever, your posts are oozing anger and frustration, go listen to always look on the bright side of life, that always does it for me mate!

thanks for the reply fling, now seriously get off the bleeding internet for 10 mins and relax, have a smoke or whatever, your posts are oozing anger and frustration, go listen to always look on the bright side of life, that always does it for me mate!

pg 110 Khorne Daemonkin Codex
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
As the Daemonkin shed blood they draw Khorne’s burning gaze; whether the sacrifice is
theirs or their foes’ matters not.
A Khorne Daemonkin army generates Blood Tithe points during the course of each battle;
the controlling player must keep a record of how many points his army accrues. A Blood
Tithe point is generated each time one of the following events occurs during the game
(this may mean that you earn multiple Blood Tithe points simultaneously):
• A unit containing at least one model with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule is
completely destroyed, or destroys an enemy unit.
• A character with the Blood for the Blood God! special rule is slain, or slays an enemy
character in a challenge.
The maximum number of Blood Tithe points an army can have at any one time is 8; any
additional points generated are lost. The controlling player can choose to expend Blood
Tithe points at the start of any of his turns. To do so, pick one reward on the Blood Tithe
table opposite that has a value equal to or less than your number of Blood Tithe points.
When one or more Blood Tithe points are expended, any remaining points are lost,
though more points can be generated later in the game as normal.

Pg 111 Khorne Daemonkin Codex
"when a rule indicates a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board."

pg 162 BRB
"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve. When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

"In the Movement phase during which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one"

pg 26 BRB

Conjuration Conjuration powers can summon units across great distances, call new allies to the fray, or even create them from the raw stuff of the Warp. Each conjuration power specifies the type and number of models to be conjured. Unless stated otherwise, the new unit cannot take any additional options or upgrades. If you do not have enough models to place the entire unit on the board, place as many as you can – the excess are destroyed. When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike, within the power’s maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes. If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves, it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play. If the new unit is a Psyker, generate its psychic power( s) as soon as the conjuration is manifested; the new unit cannot attempt to manifest conjuration powers on the same turn it was itself conjured. If the new unit has any random powers/ abilities that would normally need to be generated before the start of the game, generate them at the same time. Unless otherwise noted, conjured units are scoring units.

 FlingitNow wrote:

So, you have nothing resembling a relevant argument to add then? I didn't think so. Thank you for proving my point, it seems we're finished here. 

I did enjoy your accusation of cheating though. Cheating does involve breaking the rules though - which I'm not.

I assume this is you conceding. There is nothing unique about the Blood tithe summoning beyond not starting in reserves nor rolling for arrival. You go ahead with your houserule when you summon then move your BT and then charge the following turn. Don't be surprised if your opponents give you funny looks or call you on your cheatingg. But good luck with your future endeavours.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Dude. Having a different opinion to you isn't making stuff up or wishlisting. Sometimes it's reading something and interpreting it a different way.

The RAW argument is simple. There is no rule , written down anywhere at all that prevents something brought in via blood thithe moving after it arrives.

Find a rule that prevents movement. Quote it , and we can finish this argument. All this stuff about reserves is totally irrelevant.

Your assumption is wrong then, just like your assumptions about the rules in this case. And I've had absolutely no issues so far with opponents, playing by the rules, because it's easy to demonstrate that this is correct in terms of RAW.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Dude. Having a different opinion to you isn't making stuff up or wishlisting. Sometimes it's reading something and interpreting it a different way.

The RAW argument is simple. There is no rule , written down anywhere at all that prevents something brought in via blood thithe moving after it arrives.

Find a rule that prevents movement. Quote it , and we can finish this argument. All this stuff about reserves is totally irrelevant.

So do you believe the same is true for FMCs that arrive by DS? If not explain what the difference is using rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Your assumption is wrong then, just like your assumptions about the rules in this case. And I've had absolutely no issues so far with opponents, playing by the rules, because it's easy to demonstrate that this is correct in terms of RAW.

Cool if the people in your area are fine with you making up rules to suit yourself and you enjoy playing that way then crack on. So what about the Blood Tithe rules make it any different to arriving by DS reserve? You agree they bith arrive at the start of your turn as the rules explicitly state this (so if you disagree you must mark your posts HYWPI according to forum rules).

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I don't agree because the rules don't explicitly state this. If they did you would be able to provide a straighforwards quote. The reality is you've just made that up and provides just one example of your incorrect assumptions. What the rules actually say is that you make the roll at the start of your turn to see if the Deep Strike unit arrives that turn. The unit then arrives by Deep Strike in the movement phase as the Deep Strike rules state. The difference with the Blood Tithe summons is that it is given explicit permission to arrive immediately, in the start of turn phase, overruling this part of the Deep Strike rules because codex > rulebook.

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

 Formosa wrote:
I spoke to my guys about it and while they agree it can't change flight modes they have decided that's pretty naff and will allow it, since I'm the only deamonkin player I opted out of the decision, so hwipi is that it can, even though I don't think it can.

Democracy!

 BlackTalos wrote:
By HIWPI: The FMC rule for Deep Striking is assuming you are flying onto the field. Blood Tithe works for a non-FMC Daemon ("summoning"). I do not see why it would be forced to Swoop when being summoned. They might FAQ when pigs fly

 FlingitNow wrote:
Reserves page 135  

"At the start of your second turn you must roll..."  

"If the roll is less than 3, it remains in Reserve and automatically arrives at the start of your fourth turn."  

Ongoing Reserves page 136  
"Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of the their controlling player's following turn"

I don't think you understand codex vs rulebook. The codex gives permission to arrive during start of the turn, the rulebook tells you that you arrive during the start of the turn. This is not conflict. Conflict is when they say different things not the same thing.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Tonberry7 wrote:
I don't agree because the rules don't explicitly state this. If they did you would be able to provide a straighforwards quote. The reality is you've just made that up and provides just one example of your incorrect assumptions. What the rules actually say is that you make the roll at the start of your turn to see if the Deep Strike unit arrives that turn. The unit then arrives by Deep Strike in the movement phase as the Deep Strike rules state. The difference with the Blood Tithe summons is that it is given explicit permission to arrive immediately, in the start of turn phase, overruling this part of the Deep Strike rules because codex > rulebook.

My 2 cents on this is on the "Deep Strike via Blood Tithe" = / = "Deep Striking from Deep Strike Reserves" side of things, which i can agree to with all the "immediately" wording, and my own view that "arriving by Deep Strike" does not force any involvement of the Reserves rules. I'm happy observing rather than arguing though.

But i would make sure anyone still reading is fully aware that:
- Being in "Deep Strike Reserves" does not equal "arriving by Deep Strike".

"Deep Strike Reserves" =/= "Deep Strike"

I insist !

Rules support: Blood Angels Codex; Drop Pods

Drop Pods and Units embarked upon them must be held in Deep Strike Reserves

Passengers are in "Deep Strike Reserves", however it is impossible for them to be "arriving by Deep Strike".

No, the rulebook says they arrive in the movement phase. As I've cited several times, but which you still continue to ignore.

 FlingitNow wrote:


So do you believe the same is true for FMCs that arrive by DS? If not explain what the difference is using rules.

So pretty clear Deep Striking units arrive in the movement phase, and cannot move any further. FMCs get told they are in swoop mode and have no opportunity to change it. 

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Now the blood tithe specifies that it happens at the start of turn, and that a 'new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike .. " Immediately means it happens at the start of turn, not the movement phase. So the line quoted above, which specifies the movement phase, cannot apply by RAW.

So as I said the RAW argument is straightforward.

Is it the best way to play it? No idea, and not my problem. I can't afford any bloodthirsters :(

 BlackTalos wrote:


Although i agree with the view and conclusions, i'm not sure you can disregard "In the movement phase during which they arrive" as easily as you think.

Sure, they're arriving immediately by Deep Strike, but the rules from "Arriving by Deep Strike" must still all apply, including the above.
How does the above apply for an arrival before the movement phase?

Could you take: "In the movement phase during which they arrive" to mean that, upon arrival that turn (start of Turn), the movement phase ("one phase later") would still have the restrictions that follow (No movement)?

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:


Although i agree with the view and conclusions, i'm not sure you can disregard "In the movement phase during which they arrive" as easily as you think.

Sure, they're arriving immediately by Deep Strike, but the rules from "Arriving by Deep Strike" must still all apply, including the above.
How does the above apply for an arrival before the movement phase?

Could you take: "In the movement phase during which they arrive" to mean that, upon arrival that turn (start of Turn), the movement phase ("one phase later") would still have the restrictions that follow (No movement)?

Well you are told to apply the whole 'Arriving by deep strike' section and not given any permission to change those rules.

So for each line you must judge if it applies or not.
If a line starts, "In the movement phase during which they arrive" I will disregard that line, as it is not the movement phase.
This isn't necessary the best interpretation, but its the only one I can logically make.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Am i reading it as this? Possibly, but it seems more "right" (personal interpretation after all....) :
'In the movement phase during [the Turn in] which they arrive, Deep Striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking Transport vehicle if they are in one'

(It is implicit that they are arriving, that Turn, by Deep Strike - it would be hard to disagree "they are not arriving that Turn" or "they are not arriving", when? by BTithe at the start of the Turn)

Captyn_Bob wrote:
That is a valid interpretation, and certainly the first one I came to, but it does involve you ignoring part of the rule, and rewriting it in your head.

 FlingitNow wrote:

No, the rulebook says they arrive in the movement phase. As I've cited several times, but which you still continue to ignore.

A restriction on actions you may take in the move phase you arrive does not mean you arrive in the movement phase. Particularly when all the rules tell you that you arrive at the start of the turn. Please mark all your posts HYWPI if you're arguing that DS reserves do not arrive at the start of the turn. Until you admit that the rules are correct when they tell you that you arrive at the start of the turn we can not engage in discussion as you are refusing to discuss RaW.

So which is it? Do DS reserves arrive at the start of the turn or is the rulebook wrong?

 BlackTalos wrote:
Arguing whether movement is allowed or not in the ensuing movement phase would be another topic IMO....