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 Deadshot wrote:
Ferrus wasn't Machine. Only his hands were metal but he was born with flesh.

From hints in the HH series it sounds like the Big E bargained with the Dark Gods for souls (re: can't create life from nothing concept popular in fantasy) to make the Primarchs, but then betrayed them and as a result they sent Argel Tal to scatter them and mess up the great plan.

I don't think that *actually* happened - and the point of view of that 'vision' was pretty biased and skewed too!

 Psienesis wrote:
On the subject of Primarchs being "more than mortal":

... there's a whole lot of dead Primarchs, Horus included (and is noted for being a particularly-permanent shade of dead). For all their super-human gifts, immortality and invulnerability don't seem to be two of them.

well few of them died to suitably common means of death.

How many were felled by a bullet?

How many were killed by magical swords possessed by daemons?

 Alpharius wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Ferrus wasn't Machine. Only his hands were metal but he was born with flesh.

From hints in the HH series it sounds like the Big E bargained with the Dark Gods for souls (re: can't create life from nothing concept popular in fantasy) to make the Primarchs, but then betrayed them and as a result they sent Argel Tal to scatter them and mess up the great plan.

I don't think that *actually* happened - and the point of view of that 'vision' was pretty biased and skewed too!

The vision sounds to me like one of those Back to the Future type things where you go back in time to make sure the events that lead to your present occur. Ie; It gives a clear reason for why what happened happened and why there is no "documented" explanation. Not to mention, time flows differently in the Warp, especially with the Dark Gods pushing you in the right direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
On the subject of Primarchs being "more than mortal":

... there's a whole lot of dead Primarchs, Horus included (and is noted for being a particularly-permanent shade of dead). For all their super-human gifts, immortality and invulnerability don't seem to be two of them.

well few of them died to suitably common means of death.

How many were felled by a bullet?

How many were killed by magical swords possessed by daemons?

0

Either 1 or 0. Depends on how M'Shen killed Kurze. Likely it was a Ctan Phase Sword which instant kills stuff dead so not exactly conventional.

Again, only 1. Ferrus was killed by that.

Sanguinius was killed by another Primarch while possessed by numerous Gods.

Horus had his soul fethed off by the Big E.

Guilliman had his throat cut to the bone, but that cutting was done by a Daemon Fulgrim so not exactly conventional.

And either Alpharius or Omegon, if either, were killed by Guilliman in ways not described.

I think Dorn was killed by lasguns after the Heresy ended.

Dorn's just MIA by C:SM. Supposedly died by a capital ship blowing up, but all they found was a hand.

A C'tan Phase Sword isn't some magical, insta-killing vorpal blade, it just ignores non-Necrodermis armor. So M'Shen took Curze's head off with some xeno-tech sword, much how Martin Sheen took Kurtz's head off with a machete in Apocalypse Now, and his power armor (plus any extra Chaos magics put on it) provided him no protection.

Dorn died during a boarding action on a spaceship. Whoever killed him is not known, implying that it was some mob of faceless mooks.

Khan got bagged by Dark Eldar. While he may or may not be dead, rumors of his survival in the arenas are just that: rumors. It doesn't seem, given the story, that the Dark Eldar intended to kill him... but, since they were able to capture him, and keep him captive all these years, it would suggest that killing him is well within their means.

That Fulgrim was a Daemon when Guilliman failed to protect his neck doesn't really say anything. The blade used to deal the blow was coated with a poison supposedly fatal to Space Marines... but there's nothing particularly "magical" or unusual about that. There's plenty of poisons in the galaxy that are fatal to Space Marines.

 Psienesis wrote:
A C'tan Phase Sword isn't some magical, insta-killing vorpal blade, it just ignores non-Necrodermis armor. So M'Shen took Curze's head off with some xeno-tech sword, much how Martin Sheen took Kurtz's head off with a machete in Apocalypse Now, and his power armor (plus any extra Chaos magics put on it) provided him no protection.

Dorn died during a boarding action on a spaceship. Whoever killed him is not known, implying that it was some mob of faceless mooks.

Khan got bagged by Dark Eldar. While he may or may not be dead, rumors of his survival in the arenas are just that: rumors. It doesn't seem, given the story, that the Dark Eldar intended to kill him... but, since they were able to capture him, and keep him captive all these years, it would suggest that killing him is well within their means.

That Fulgrim was a Daemon when Guilliman failed to protect his neck doesn't really say anything. The blade used to deal the blow was coated with a poison supposedly fatal to Space Marines... but there's nothing particularly "magical" or unusual about that. There's plenty of poisons in the galaxy that are fatal to Space Marines.

If there's no body they aren't dead. Dorn's hand was found. Khan went missing. They could be dead. Could be alive.

Daemon Fulgrim. That is not conventional means. No more than decapitation is.

 Psienesis wrote:
A C'tan Phase Sword isn't some magical, insta-killing vorpal blade, it just ignores non-Necrodermis armor. So M'Shen took Curze's head off with some xeno-tech sword, much how Martin Sheen took Kurtz's head off with a machete in Apocalypse Now, and his power armor (plus any extra Chaos magics put on it) provided him no protection.

Dorn died during a boarding action on a spaceship. Whoever killed him is not known, implying that it was some mob of faceless mooks.

Khan got bagged by Dark Eldar. While he may or may not be dead, rumors of his survival in the arenas are just that: rumors. It doesn't seem, given the story, that the Dark Eldar intended to kill him... but, since they were able to capture him, and keep him captive all these years, it would suggest that killing him is well within their means.

That Fulgrim was a Daemon when Guilliman failed to protect his neck doesn't really say anything. The blade used to deal the blow was coated with a poison supposedly fatal to Space Marines... but there's nothing particularly "magical" or unusual about that. There's plenty of poisons in the galaxy that are fatal to Space Marines.

A Necron blade is explicitly magical as it's bs magi-tech that somebody phases through dimensions to cut through anything short of Necrodermis (which also implies that Necrodermis is extra-dimensional esoteric weirdness).

It's explicitly not magical because it's built from a technology base that features no warp technology.

It also cuts through Necrodermis just fine. The problem is that a C'tan wearing Necrodermis has enough mastery over the living metal that makes up the phase sword that when it gets pierced by a phase blade, it can then hijack the living metal and absorb it to affect repairs (otherwise, warscythes wouldn't work on C'tan since they're the same tech).

 Furyou Miko wrote:
It's explicitly not magical because it's built from a technology base that features no warp technology.

It also cuts through Necrodermis just fine. The problem is that a C'tan wearing Necrodermis has enough mastery over the living metal that makes up the phase sword that when it gets pierced by a phase blade, it can then hijack the living metal and absorb it to affect repairs (otherwise, warscythes wouldn't work on C'tan since they're the same tech).

Oh no, all Necron is magi-tech, it's just different magi-tech. After all these are the guys with scythes that can blow up planets and can hop around other dimensions like nobody's business.

Magic is a function of the Warp.

You'll have to find another term to refer to Sufficiently Advanced Technology.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Magic is a function of the Warp.

You'll have to find another term to refer to Sufficiently Advanced Technology.

If I want to invoke Clarke's Third Law, I'm going to bloody-well do it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

A Necron blade is explicitly magical as it's bs magi-tech that somebody phases through dimensions to cut through anything short of Necrodermis (which also implies that Necrodermis is extra-dimensional esoteric weirdness).

I get what you mean, but there is an in-universe difference between "technologies that are basically magical objects" and "stuffs that make from/utilize (Warp) Magicks". That makes a huge difference when discussing, in-universe, whether or not the Primarchs are made from Warp magic, and if killing one requires stuffs that use warp energy. Your everyday unobtainium or Minovosky Particles don't mess with Warp Daemons, so archeotech/futuristic tech should be considered different from magitech when dealing with 40K fluff.

In other words, 'Magic' is 40k jargon for 'warp-based stuff'. It's a shibboleth of sorts - it means something totally different outside our sociolect.

Given that the Necrons have no psykers, sorcerers, daemon-summoners or anything of the like, and are implied to be the diametric opposite of Chaos (the Necrons being unyielding, complete stasis and Order vs the wholly-unrestrained freedom and anarchy that is Chaos)...

... no, their tech isn't magical. It only appears to be so because it is far beyond the understanding of humanity.

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that the Necrons have no psykers, sorcerers, daemon-summoners or anything of the like, and are implied to be the diametric opposite of Chaos (the Necrons being unyielding, complete stasis and Order vs the wholly-unrestrained freedom and anarchy that is Chaos)...

... no, their tech isn't magical. It only appears to be so because it is far beyond the understanding of humanity.

So it's magic, for all intents and purposes.

All right.

Except that "magic" is a shibboleth meaning "warp-based technology" in context.

Honestly, am I the only one who gives a monkey's uncle about linguistics in this place?