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Okay, so recently a game called Pillars of Eternity was launched, after a very successful Kickstarter campaign. I thoroughly enjoy this game. It's everything good about my childhood gaming distilled and is a magical and fun experience. Sadly, the game itself is only tangentially related to the topic at hand.

At a certain point of backing the kickstarter you are allowed specific rewards. At the $500 dollar level you were allowed -

The Complete Kickstarter Obsidian Pack: signed COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX (cloth map, elite cloth patch, and printed manual included) + your name and a personalized message on a MEMORIAL STONE IN-GAME + full color PROJECT ETERNITY *HARD COVER* COLLECTOR'S BOOK SIGNED by the development team + A GOLD PLEDGE SPECIAL THANKS in the credits + T-SHIRT + DIGITAL DOWNLOADABLE COPY OF PROJECT ETERNITY + DIGITAL DOWNLOADABLE SOUNDTRACK + A GOLD PLEDGE VIP FORUM BADGE. Your name will also go on our top pledger plaque in our office, so we can always remember your special contribution.

- so basically there are a multitude of tombstones you can click on, and they will have a list of the backers and a short message they wanted.

One of these 367 odd tombstone message was

"Firedorn Lightbringer-



Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed.



He once was alive, but now he is dead.



The last woman he bedded, turned out a man,



And crying in shame, off a cliff he ran"

And the internet shat itself.

https://twitter.com/icequeenerika/status/582161950202863616

There is a campaign on Twitter to have this removed, it is being decried as transphobic, it is being called transmisogyny - which I don't know if that is a real thing. I find it insane. If the punchline had been Firedorn beating the individual to death ... maybe. But if someone presents as a woman and you take them to bed and they turn out to be a man, you are wrong for being upset? I do not get this at all. And moreover, Totalbiscuit did a segment where he talked about this in what I felt was a reasonable and nuanced tone,

https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/pillars-of-transphobia

Which was answered by the hashtag campaign...

(spoilered for language)



I... am flabbergasted. For those of you who have not played the game - once again - there are occasional tombstone icons that pop up in graveyards and such, which you can choose to click on and read. Each is a series of backer names and messages. I, like probably 99% of folks clicked through two or three and then never clicked on them again because the information is pointless and irrelevant from a gameplay perspective. It is mind boggling to me that a campaign of such vitriol and ridiculousness can be spawned from something so inane and frankly once again irrelevant. You would have to try so hard to search through the game to find this one thing to be offended about that it breaks my brain.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So reading back through I guess I never asked the question I was thinking - can anyone explain to me why this is a big enough deal to care about and what is so terribly bad that there are campaigns to boycott an otherwise brilliant game for not refusing to host a backer's rather infantile but fairly harmless joke.

Anything people can lash on to decry others is the new hunting grounds. I read something awhile ago that said in this day and age the biggest winner is determined by the person who is the most offended. It's become a common theme for people to be offended by anything.

Don't get me wrong, transphobia and LBGT rights are a very big and serious issue, but then you get gak like this where people are making mountains out of molehills.

Seriously, this is a joke limerick, and not a bad one at that, but it's a joke in a credits scene in a game, not a new bill passed by Indiana where stores can refuse to serve LGBT customers.

Pick your battles people.

For the last two quarters living in the transgender dorms and one quarter of a class about Transgendered (which does not make me aa expert at all) a lot of it is fear. for not even the last couple of decades, transgendered was bearly a thing, swept under the rug. They hid it. but now we live in a world where being Trans is both fine and not fine. They made some headway, but they are loosing it.
But.........it is also a lot of sjw trying to look to get offended too.

It reinforces the false notion of binary sexuality and the idea that a man can be "tricked" by a "trap". This is weapons grade bull-onium and has been disproved many times, starting with Kinsey in the 50's.

It IS transphobic and is, as you say, infantile. Since it is so inconsequential to the gameplay and causing such negative attention to the game itself it should be an easy call to remove it.

Someone on the internet is offended?

Color me shocked.

 feeder wrote:
It reinforces the false notion of binary sexuality and the idea that a man can be "tricked" by a "trap". This is weapons grade bull-onium and has been disproved many times, starting with Kinsey in the 50's.

It IS transphobic and is, as you say, infantile. Since it is so inconsequential to the gameplay and causing such negative attention to the game itself it should be an easy call to remove it.

But....it was also promised to a backer they would put it in.

It sounds like a bunch of SJW's getting offended over nothing. Should we censor everything that might be offensive? I'd rather be an adult about this and admit that this message came from some random dude on the internet, so who gives a feth.

It's the internet, everyone is a crusader for a cause when all you need to do is a silly petition. It's kind of sad that this is the point we are at. I found it humorous and didn't take it as having any sinister meaning, it rimed and the innocent me got a slight chuckle out of it. People just overreact about silly things in my opinion.

It's almost as if trans-people are prone to be mentally ill and suffer from low self esteem.

Maybe they just need to edit it with the appropriate pronouns...

 Bromsy wrote:
So reading back through I guess I never asked the question I was thinking - can anyone explain to me why this is a big enough deal to care about.

Since the original tweet was retweeted less than 800 times, I think the answer is that functionally, no one cares about this.

This feels like outrage about a nearly non-existent outrage. Nonetheless, we now have another thread to post all of our hilarious references to SJWs, checking privilege, and tumblr.

I keep saying it: Self-righteous outrage is the new opiate of the masses.

I mean, I don't know what else to say. People won't be happy until you can't kill children in games, everyone can be gendered up to a degree to the point that you just have a text box describing what gender you want to be, and limericks are illegal.

I'd argue that it's the hypothetical fault of the hypothetical person in question for not properly identifying themselves as such prior to the encounter.

 Ouze wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
So reading back through I guess I never asked the question I was thinking - can anyone explain to me why this is a big enough deal to care about.

Since the original tweet was retweeted less than 800 times, I think the answer is that functionally, no one cares about this.

This feels like outrage about a nearly non-existent outrage. Nonetheless, we now have another thread to post all of our hilarious references to SJWs, checking privilege, and tumblr.

I do not twitter hard enough to know how to find these things out. Thus, I depend on creating threads here so people can inform me of relevant details such as this. I will stand by the 'shutthefrontdoorTotalBiscuit' pound sign thingy as being totally inappropriate no matter how many people signed off on it and it being a generally reprehensible sentiment for anyone to espouse.

Fair enough.

Whembly would be able to answer this better than I since he uses Twitter a lot more but I don't think this is an actual thing yet (i.e. not a "trending topic"). Perhaps it will be at some point.

I don't think the developers could have reasonably be expected to read every single message inserted into the game by backers - there were a lot, right? - for anything other than the most obvious blacklisted words and phrases.

 feeder wrote:
It reinforces the false notion of binary sexuality and the idea that a man can be "tricked" by a "trap". This is weapons grade bull-onium and has been disproved many times, starting with Kinsey in the 50's.

Oh? More information please. I assuming you are saying that it's been proven that it is impossible for someone who is biologically male to pass themselves off as female up until the point of going to bed. I'm intrigued and would like to hear more.

 Ouze wrote:
Fair enough.

Whembly would be able to answer this better than I since he uses Twitter a lot more but I don't think this is an actual thing yet (i.e. not a "trending topic"). Perhaps it will be at some point.

I don't think the developers could have reasonably be expected to read every single message inserted into the game by backers - there were a lot, right? - for anything other than the most obvious blacklisted words and phrases.

Then they should have been prepared to posibly remove one.

Realy it doesn't need to be removed, but it should be.
But if not removed it should serve as a reminder to people developing games that when dealing with minority's and in particular minority's that are decriminated against a great deal.
They have to be far more thoughtful
This backer is a dumbass, but who cares about them.
It's the devs that have to choose to remove or keep.

Any man who ends up intimately with someone that doesn't have what you would prefer, you should stop it and say you are not into that.
Be a real man and leave or talk about it.

This fictional man wasn't in much danger getting into this relationship, but many transgender do put the self in considerable danger when they open up for relationships.
Many find intimacy hard and finding a partner dificult.

To show in this world that in there world sharing in intimacy with a transgender is worthy of suicide shows far more in the end I think is far more disappointing.

For the devs to remove this all it would show is that they do care about the small population of people who are right now fighting for simple rights, over the need to keep in there game a simple biut nasty joke.

Apple fox wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Fair enough.

Whembly would be able to answer this better than I since he uses Twitter a lot more but I don't think this is an actual thing yet (i.e. not a "trending topic"). Perhaps it will be at some point.

I don't think the developers could have reasonably be expected to read every single message inserted into the game by backers - there were a lot, right? - for anything other than the most obvious blacklisted words and phrases.

Then they should have been prepared to posibly remove one.

Realy it doesn't need to be removed, but it should be.
But if not removed it should serve as a reminder to people developing games that when dealing with minority's and in particular minority's that are decriminated against a great deal.
They have to be far more thoughtful
This backer is a dumbass, but who cares about them.
It's the devs that have to choose to remove or keep.

Why? Is there an imperative NOT to offend people/

Any man who ends up intimately with someone that doesn't have what you would prefer, you should stop it and say you are not into that.
Be a real man and leave or talk about it.

At what point is this expected? At what point during the encounter are you expected to have a conversation about it? I'm not exactly a expert on women, but I'm pretty sure that if I asked every one of them upfront if they had male parts, I'd probably get less far than I do.

This fictional man wasn't in much danger getting into this relationship, but many transgender do put the self in considerable danger when they open up for relationships.
Many find intimacy hard and finding a partner dificult.

At the risk of sounding callous, if there are two people going into an intimate moment, and one person knows what they're getting, and the other person doesn't, isn't the onus upon the person who's, for lack of a better expression, "not what they seem", to explain the situation?

To show in this world that in there world sharing in intimacy with a transgender is worthy of suicide shows far more in the end I think is far more disappointing.

I worry about a world where games are taken too seriously.

For the devs to remove this all it would show is that they do care about the small population of people who are right now fighting for simple rights, over the need to keep in there game a simple biut nasty joke.

I don't think anyone has a universal right to not be offended. At least not yet. I relish the moments I am challenged with situations and dialogue that get me offended. Put me in situations I detest. Approach me with characters I find repugnant. THAT'S story. People holding hands together absent conflict or differing attitudes, right or wrong about things? That's oppression of the dullest sort.

What is our flabergastation level on a scale of 1-10?

 Ahtman wrote:
What is our flabergastation level on a scale of 1-10?

Interest in DBZ leaves me more flabbergasted than anything else. It's like 9000^2.

 Ahtman wrote:
What is our flabergastation level on a scale of 1-10?

Since as we all know flabbergastation is rated on a 1 through "What is the Onion? I don't get why this is funny it is a serious issue" .... this is clearly at least a "Johnny Depp" and possibly as high as a "Seriously, they made Twister straightfacedly?" I know it didn't score high enough to make int as a "Did I really think Adam Sandler was funny or did I have an Aneurysm when I was younger?", so lower mid range on the spectrum.

But still, flabbergasted.

 daedalus wrote:
Interest in DBZ leaves me more flabbergasted than anything else. It's like 9000^2.

People crying like 8 year olds because someone on the internet has an opinion leaves me feeling the same way.

 daedalus wrote:

Apple fox wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Fair enough.

Whembly would be able to answer this better than I since he uses Twitter a lot more but I don't think this is an actual thing yet (i.e. not a "trending topic"). Perhaps it will be at some point.

I don't think the developers could have reasonably be expected to read every single message inserted into the game by backers - there were a lot, right? - for anything other than the most obvious blacklisted words and phrases.

Then they should have been prepared to posibly remove one.

Realy it doesn't need to be removed, but it should be.
But if not removed it should serve as a reminder to people developing games that when dealing with minority's and in particular minority's that are decriminated against a great deal.
They have to be far more thoughtful
This backer is a dumbass, but who cares about them.
It's the devs that have to choose to remove or keep.

Why? Is there an imperative NOT to offend people/

Any man who ends up intimately with someone that doesn't have what you would prefer, you should stop it and say you are not into that.
Be a real man and leave or talk about it.

At what point is this expected? At what point during the encounter are you expected to have a conversation about it? I'm not exactly a expert on women, but I'm pretty sure that if I asked every one of them upfront if they had male parts, I'd probably get less far than I do.

This fictional man wasn't in much danger getting into this relationship, but many transgender do put the self in considerable danger when they open up for relationships.
Many find intimacy hard and finding a partner dificult.

At the risk of sounding callous, if there are two people going into an intimate moment, and one person knows what they're getting, and the other person doesn't, isn't the onus upon the person who's, for lack of a better expression, "not what they seem", to explain the situation?

To show in this world that in there world sharing in intimacy with a transgender is worthy of suicide shows far more in the end I think is far more disappointing.

I worry about a world where games are taken too seriously.

For the devs to remove this all it would show is that they do care about the small population of people who are right now fighting for simple rights, over the need to keep in there game a simple biut nasty joke.

I don't think anyone has a universal right to not be offended. At least not yet. I relish the moments I am challenged with situations and dialogue that get me offended. Put me in situations I detest. Approach me with characters I find repugnant. THAT'S story. People holding hands together absent conflict or differing attitudes, right or wrong about things? That's oppression of the dullest sort.

1. I say nothing about offence, or that it has to be removed. But it does reflect back on them. Is there really any reason to protect this ? How about showing people kindness. This is only a joke since transgender people are the joke, the stone could read " Died a Dumb Gak and mean the same thing.

2 & 3. That's the point, if you are getting into a relationship then you will find out at some point.
Be mature and live with it, transgender don't want to hide it from there partners but won't advertise it. When should they tell potential partners? The more society pushes back on them the less likly they are to tell someone until they feel safe.
Some will advertise it as part of there totel identity, others will keep it as just something that's a part of them and not something to be. And only something that should be a issue when there is the possibility of sex.
In the end if discrimination wasn't so precedent then they would be more able to share it as just something about them.

For transgender quite often there isn't even a mark box on documents to say they are transgender, society wants them to be a man or a woman and when they don't fit it's social norms that holds the issue. This isn't even unique to them.

4. The world is important and often reflect the real world, they are not created in a vacuum.
And then how serious should games be taken? To say games shouldn't be taken seriously, should any entertainment be, should they make no commentary on the issues of the world ? Should they have no statements to say ?
Games as other media have a lot to say.

5. I take no offence to this, I don't even think it needs to be removed. But what story does it hold, are there transgender in this world they created. Can you create one ? Can you interact with the statue in some way, or other characters? Is there any indication that a man should take such issue with this In this world.

World and story is why I play games, but does this ad to the world meaningfully or if I see it will it add to my world in anyway ? I too want games to look at the world and it's conflicts, but if this game doesn't and simply leaves it as a joke it seems it's doing exactly the other side of what you want.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:
It sounds like a bunch of SJW's getting offended over nothing.

The last part of that statement is redundant as that's all SJW's do.

It's a joke. People need thicker skin.

 LordofHats wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Interest in DBZ leaves me more flabbergasted than anything else. It's like 9000^2.

People crying like 8 year olds because someone on the internet has an opinion leaves me feeling the same way.

So you are annoyed by the people bitching about the one guy's limerick embedded in a video game too?

 daedalus wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
Interest in DBZ leaves me more flabbergasted than anything else. It's like 9000^2.

People crying like 8 year olds because someone on the internet has an opinion leaves me feeling the same way.

So you are annoyed by the people bitching about the one guy's limerick embedded in a video game too?

Assuming they act like 8 year olds

 feeder wrote:
It reinforces the false notion of binary sexuality and the idea that a man can be "tricked" by a "trap". This is weapons grade bull-onium and has been disproved many times, starting with Kinsey in the 50's.

It IS transphobic and is, as you say, infantile. Since it is so inconsequential to the gameplay and causing such negative attention to the game itself it should be an easy call to remove it.

Is it? I thought it was just that the dude got drunk enough to be unable to tell the difference between men and women and slept with a man.

Related: The person who started all these tweets to begin with has posted "Kill all Men" and "Put men in concentration camps" sort of tweets...Oh the irony of SJW's.

 feeder wrote:
It reinforces the false notion of binary sexuality and the idea that a man can be "tricked" by a "trap".

No I'm pretty sure it's just a joke.

 feeder wrote:
This is weapons grade bull-onium and has been disproved many times, starting with Kinsey in the 50's.

Nah dude. I'm pretty sure it's a joke.

 feeder wrote:
It IS transphobic and is, as you say, infantile.

Still pretty convinced that it's just a joke.

 feeder wrote:
Since it is so inconsequential to the gameplay and causing such negative attention to the game itself it should be an easy call to remove it.

Why would you remove a joke? Why censor fiction?

It's the bloody internet, how have people not developed a sense of humour? I suggest they get re-educated at the marvelous site that is ED, they'll burn themselves out on ineffectual hate so much that they might give up on their deluded ideas of "social justice".

 Grimskul wrote:
It's the bloody internet, how have people not developed a sense of humour? I suggest they get re-educated at the marvelous site that is ED, they'll burn themselves out on ineffectual hate so much that they might give up on their deluded ideas of "social justice".

Yes it would be great to not get subjected to such awful jokes again and again !
I could also find no reference to a website called ED. So yea...

Apple fox wrote:

World and story is why I play games, but does this ad to the world meaningfully or if I see it will it add to my world in anyway ? I too want games to look at the world and it's conflicts, but if this game doesn't and simply leaves it as a joke it seems it's doing exactly the other side of what you want.

Truncation because it's 3:00 AM here and I should really be doing other things. I might revisit why things like being able to naturally have children or not might be relevant to some people as well as why leading someone on might be considered leading someone on later on.

To the quoted point, because, as was put more succinctly than I could hope to: Why censor fiction?

I shudder to think of all the subtle little nuances I might have lost from works over the years if we'd caved in and censored a work of art simply because it made someone uncomfortable somewhere. That's kind of what art is supposed to do. Even if it's not a direct and fundamental point of the story, to lose any amount of flavor is repugnant. I sometimes wonder how many books I would have left to enjoy if they would not have been printed because they made someone uncomfortable somewhere. Movies too, for that matter.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

LordofHats wrote:
Assuming they act like 8 year olds

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Related: The person who started all these tweets to begin with has posted "Kill all Men" and "Put men in concentration camps" sort of tweets...Oh the irony of SJW's.

Eyebrow raised.