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Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Nah, I think I would rather keep them cheap and small(more MSU) than otherwise. To make it worth investing in unit buffs means that you want the unit to be bigger. At which point it kinda becomes unwieldy.

I think keep the ironstriders stock with autocannon. Not worth the extra 20 points each.

I would make the dunewalkers the main ranged strong shooting. they have the durability to make it happen.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Daemonic Dreadnought






It looks like a well written codex.

The big meta changer will probably be the mass haywire in a pod wrecking knights. What exactly are the haywire guns and squads?

The assault units are fast and are hitting the meta at the same time as khorne daemonkin. Compared to masses of fearless khorne dogs the skitarii hit harder, but seem more fragile.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 schadenfreude wrote:
It looks like a well written codex.

The big meta changer will probably be the mass haywire in a pod wrecking knights. What exactly are the haywire guns and squads?

Arc Rifles can be taken in either Rangers or Vanguard. 2 per 5 or 3 per 10.
Then you also have the Mindscrambler Grenades(which are Haywire) on the Sicarian Ruststalkers and the ability to take a Relic which is one use per game and makes you roll a number of D6 equivalent to the turn number. The resulting roll is the range of a special attack which hits all enemy vehicles within range with a Haywire attack.

The assault units are fast and are hitting the meta at the same time as khorne daemonkin. Compared to masses of fearless khorne dogs the skitarii hit harder, but seem more fragile.

They are more fragile, but they reward synergy.

And wily use of Conversion Fields.
   
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Hounds reward synergy, they go well with more hounds, and can also work well with even more hounds. At least until they run up against knights, then they need someone else to knock the knights out of a tournament.

Guessing the arc rifles are rapid fire.

The relic us cool but it's more important to focus on 1 knight until it's dead.

Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.


 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Hounds reward synergy, they go well with more hounds, and can also work well with even more hounds. At least until they run up against knights, then they need someone else to knock the knights out of a tournament.

Guessing the arc rifles are rapid fire.

They are.

The relic us cool but it's more important to focus on 1 knight until it's dead.

Certainly, but that doesn't mean there aren't more vehicles in the list.
   
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So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes. Right now i'm thinking-

5 Rangers, 2 TA (transarque), omnispex
10 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (for an additional one in the future), omnispex
5 Vanguard, 2 PlasCal
   
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 ultimentra wrote:
So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes


Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.

Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it
   
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Beijing, China

Super Newb wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes


Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.

Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it



Calivers are a very expensive investment. You need to get them near heavy infantry or MCs and unload or you are really wasting the squad. Putting them on already expensive rangers, makes a very tempting target that wants to hang back but at the same time close with the enemies nasties.

Arc Rifles on the other hand are half the price, have a little more range, and are nice to have around for Armor. I can see putting some ArcRifles on rangers, as you arent really investing too too much there. Also str6 AP4 isnt terrible at killing infantry at range.



I think im going to build 30 skitarii, 10 rangers with arquebuses(but maybe not use them) 10 vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles(the optimal choice) and 10 vanguard with 3 plasma Calivers. I think it's the best way to optimize what you get in the kits.

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Hyperspace

 Exergy wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes


Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.

Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it



Calivers are a very expensive investment. You need to get them near heavy infantry or MCs and unload or you are really wasting the squad. Putting them on already expensive rangers, makes a very tempting target that wants to hang back but at the same time close with the enemies nasties.

Arc Rifles on the other hand are half the price, have a little more range, and are nice to have around for Armor. I can see putting some ArcRifles on rangers, as you arent really investing too too much there. Also str6 AP4 isnt terrible at killing infantry at range.



I think im going to build 30 skitarii, 10 rangers with arquebuses(but maybe not use them) 10 vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles(the optimal choice) and 10 vanguard with 3 plasma Calivers. I think it's the best way to optimize what you get in the kits.

I will most likely do the same. My most recent sale should just cover it.

Currently I'm just theory crafting until the rest comes out. I have been running some tests, however.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 15:45:59




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Indiana

I am planning on 5 man units of vanguard in pods with calivers since they will all be in general targetting MC's. I am then thinking rangers with arc rifles since they can infiltrate and scout, so guaranteed rapidfire range if I want them on the table turn one. Probably going to go 10 man with them and the -1 cover upgrade.

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Gathering the Informations.

 Leth wrote:
I am planning on 5 man units of vanguard in pods with calivers since they will all be in general targetting MC's. I am then thinking rangers with arc rifles since they can infiltrate and scout, so guaranteed rapidfire range if I want them on the table turn one. Probably going to go 10 man with them and the -1 cover upgrade.

Where are you getting that Rangers can Infiltrate from?

As far as I'm aware only the Sicarian Infiltrators have the Infiltrate special rule. Scout is bestowed upon all Skitarii units taken as part of the Maniple formation.
   
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Rangers and Vanguard. 10 man squads or 5 man?

Arquebus worth it with Rangers?
Also they dont have Infiltrate they have Move Through Cover.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 17:21:55


 
   
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Indiana

You are indeed correct, I dont know why I thought they had infiltrate.

O well

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Cleveland, Ohio, USA

 dan2026 wrote:
Rangers and Vanguard. 10 man squads or 5 man?

Arquebus worth it with Rangers?
Also they dont have Infiltrate they have Move Through Cover.


10 for maximizing Stock Loadout or 5 for maximizing Special Weapons. The correct choice is whichever fills a hole in your army design. If you're lacking AP4 at range and your heavy slots are full, you want 10man Rangers with Galvanic Rifles. If you're facing universally high T enemies, 10man Vanguard, etc.

I'm not sure what to think of the Arquebus. I want to like it. It looks real cool. But 25pts for one shot that wounds on a 4+ makes me nervous. 36points with cost of model.

They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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 Exergy wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
 ultimentra wrote:
So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes


Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.

Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it



Calivers are a very expensive investment. You need to get them near heavy infantry or MCs and unload or you are really wasting the squad. Putting them on already expensive rangers, makes a very tempting target that wants to hang back but at the same time close with the enemies nasties.

Arc Rifles on the other hand are half the price, have a little more range, and are nice to have around for Armor. I can see putting some ArcRifles on rangers, as you arent really investing too too much there. Also str6 AP4 isnt terrible at killing infantry at range.



I think im going to build 30 skitarii, 10 rangers with arquebuses(but maybe not use them) 10 vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles(the optimal choice) and 10 vanguard with 3 plasma Calivers. I think it's the best way to optimize what you get in the kits.


Arc Rifles are AP5.
   
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Cleveland, Ohio, USA

I believe by armor he meant Vehicles.

Edit - Derp, he did say AP4. Yeah, they're 5.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 18:03:18


They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines, and they shall know no fear. 
   
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Beijing, China

 obsidiankatana wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:
[size=12]Rangers and Vanguard. 10 man squads or 5 man?

Arquebus worth it with Rangers?


10 for maximizing Stock Loadout or 5 for maximizing Special Weapons. The correct choice is whichever fills a hole in your army design. If you're lacking AP4 at range and your heavy slots are full, you want 10man Rangers with Galvanic Rifles. If you're facing universally high T enemies, 10man Vanguard, etc.

I'm not sure what to think of the Arquebus. I want to like it. It looks real cool. But 25pts for one shot that wounds on a 4+ makes me nervous. 36points with cost of model.


Defenitely need one 10 man squad if making an army out of it, to have your warlord in. If you are buying the -1 cover save upgrade I think the 10 man also makes sense. If investing in the Cantilvers you might want more than 5 bodies as wound catchers(just 2 stock guys). 5 man Vanguard with 2 plasma end up costing 115 on their own and you probably want the -1 cover so that makes them 125.

The arquebuses look cool, but I doubt they are worth it. A 5 man ranger squad is 65pts. A 5 man with 2 Aquebuses is 115. A 10 man Ranger squad is only 120. 3 galvonic rifers and 2 Aquebuses or 10 galvonic rifles? In other words, 7 Str4 AP4 or 2 StrX AP3? The 7 str4 also come with 5 more wounds.

Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++  
   
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Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?

Or if you meant the additional guns it would be

5 S4 AP4 (and 5 more wounds) versus 2 SX AP3 shots. For almost the same price.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 18:23:50


 
   
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Super Newb wrote:
Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?


He's making the comparison based on the difference between 5 man w/ 2 Arquebuses, and 10-man with no weapons.

In any case, here's my take on:

-Special Weapons in Vanguard and Ranger squads

Transuranic Arquebuses should never be used by Vanguard- the main advantage the Arquebus has is AP3+60" range, most of which is wasted on Vanguards (as in, the 60" range is the main benefit) who want to be at 18". Arquebuses do, however, suit 5-man Ranger squads that camp an objective all game long because they're much more likely to be able to shoot nearly anywhere on the board (LOS blocking obviously does hamper the Arquebus). Moreover, you're likely to get moderately reliable anti-transport/-light armor with the Arquebus, given that it's Armorbane and IIRC is what, S4 against vehicles? Or is it S3 now- I can't remember offhand.

Oh, and Transuranic Arquebuses can be used to troll the piss out of 90% of the other sniper units in the game, possibly all of them.

For Arc Rifles... I'm skeptical of their use in Ranger squads. Rangers want to be at one of two positions- around 30", at the edge of Galvanic Rifle range, to avoid return fire from comparable infantry, or at around 15" so that they can Rapid Fire. Arc Rifles have shorter overall and Rapid Fire ranges, that aren't particularly well synced with the Galvanic Rifles. Arc Rifles are also only AP5, as opposed to AP4 like the Galvanics are. Plasma Calivers in Ranger squads are actually not as bad, IMO- Rangers do get Move Through Cover, so they can maneuver close. Plasma Calivers are also, IMO, more suited to the shorter range at which Rangers would want to be at (15" Rapid Fire), and also synergize better with AP4 on the Galvanic Rifles. The main flaw I see with Caliver-Ranger squads is that Vanguard are much more capable at shorter ranges, due to having more weight of fire and the Rad Poisoning from the Radium Carbines.

I dunno, I feel like Rangers aren't as good with Arc Rifles as Vanguards are, and that really the only weapon option that synergizes well with the armaments of the Rangers is the Arquebus, which is also a very expensive sniper rifle. A pretty slick number, to be sure- but still an expensive one.

-Inquisitorial Support

Adding Inquisitors is a great way to get more mileage out of Skitarii- Hereticus Inquisitors can bring Psyocculums to make your mans BS10 against anything that's even remotely Psyker-y, and Null Rods to make a squad immune to psychic powers. Xenos and Malleus Inquisitors do bring a bit more- a Conversion Beamer Xenos can be a way to get a complementary weapon in your objective squatting Ranger+Arquebus squad, along with access to Divination, and some Servo Skulls. A Xenos Inquisitor can alternately be a grenade caddy, with Rad+Psychotrokes, and that's actually a cheaper build; he doesn't really benefit as much from being a Psyker (though Hammerhand can be quite handy on Ruststalkers, potentially making them S6 on the charge without Blades (and thus S6 at Initiative).

A Malleus Inquisitor should always be a Psyker, because they should really be equipped with TDA no matter what- being able to bring a Relentless Psycannon to tag along with, say, a squad of Vanguard, is a great way to get more firepower in. It's also the case that a Malleus Inquisitor with TDA comes with a Daemonhammer. Potentially, he could in fact instagib a MC, especially if you just take him with Hammerhand, and then pop both Hammerhand and Force- the latter of which also buffs whatever squad he's in.

Henchmen Warbands can also be thrown into Valkyries for use in Maelstrom missions (or any kind of transport really), and can bring more Plasma or some Melta along for the ride. Also, Warbands can be used to get assault vehicles into the list- though remember that the Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are both Bulky, so you'll be throwing a unit of 8 at most into a Crusader, the roomiest of Land Raiders.

-MSU or no MSU

I actually feel like MSU might hurt the Skitarii list; one of the things that helps them is that their infantry are actually fairly cheap- Vanguard in particular. Moreover, given their lack of transport options, larger squads are pretty much the only way that they can really get good survivability against the more capable long-range guns, particularly artillery.

The exception to this, however, would be Rangers and Dragoons; Rangers can do passably well as an objective babysitter with all of two Arquebuses in a 5-man squad; it's a little pricey I know, but it can still contribute a little bit. Dragoons as MSU is actually a fair idea- they've got enough S8 attacks on the charge to pretty reliably kill almost any vehicle in the game in a single turn. The main issue with Dragoon MSU is that the Skitarii Maniple detachment only gets two FA slots, and as yet I'm not sure if there are any special Formations that have Dragoons in them.
   
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Whiskey144 wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?


He's making the comparison based on the difference between 5 man w/ 2 Arquebuses, and 10-man with no weapons.


If that's the case what I wrote is correct.
   
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Beijing, China

Super Newb wrote:
Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?

Or if you meant the additional guns it would be

5 S4 AP4 (and 5 more wounds) versus 2 SX AP3 shots. For almost the same price.



Im saying 10 rifles vs 3 rifles and 2 arquebuses. Subtract 3 rifles to get a straight up comparison.
Same for wounds, it's 11 wounds vs 6 wounds(number of models +1 for the champion)

So 7 rifles(and 5 extra wounds) vs 2 Aquebuses.

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Super Newb wrote:
If that's the case what I wrote is correct.


To be fair I didn't notice your edit until after I'd posted.
   
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 Exergy wrote:
Super Newb wrote:
Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?

Or if you meant the additional guns it would be

5 S4 AP4 (and 5 more wounds) versus 2 SX AP3 shots. For almost the same price.



Im saying 10 rifles vs 3 rifles and 2 arquebuses. Subtract 3 rifles to get a straight up comparison.
Same for wounds, it's 11 wounds vs 6 wounds(number of models +1 for the champion)

So 7 rifles(and 5 extra wounds) vs 2 Aquebuses.


Derp derp de derp derp. Lol. Next time I should read and think a little harder. Whoops.

I like the idea of 10 man stock Ranger squads. Especially because that means it frees up the arc rifle and the plasma caliver in the box for use in my other squads. Special weapons are in short supply yo. lol.
   
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Cleveland, Ohio, USA

Napkin math tells me that at T4 3+ (MEQ), 10 stock rangers and 5 w/ 2 Arquebus evens out in marines killed. Edge goes to 10 stock with cover. T5+ starts to favor the Arquebus, T3- favors rifles. 3+ is the sweet spot for Arquebus, 2+/4+/5+/6+ all favor rifles. If it were AP2 or Str5, maybe I'd take it. As it is - I can't justify it.

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Beijing, China

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Napkin math tells me that at T4 3+ (MEQ), 10 stock rangers and 5 w/ 2 Arquebus evens out in marines killed. Edge goes to 10 stock with cover. T5+ starts to favor the Arquebus, T3- favors rifles. 3+ is the sweet spot for Arquebus, 2+/4+/5+/6+ all favor rifles. If it were AP2 or Str5, maybe I'd take it. As it is - I can't justify it.


It's worse than you think. Even against T4 3+ out of cover, 10 rifles do 1.111 wounds. 3 rifles and 2 aquebuses do 1.00 wound.

As you say against anything but 3+ saves, the rifles get MUCH better.
Against T5 the aquebuses get better and it keeps getting better the higher the toughness.


The aquebuses can threaten vehicles.
The aquebuses have an extra 30" of range
The aquebuses are better against T5+

The rifles are do double damage inside 15" and for overwatch
The rifles are much better against T3 and slightly better against T4
The rifles are better when cover becomes a factor
The rifles have 5 additional bodies(5 attacks and 5 wounds).

The aquebuses have the rule of cool.
The aquebuses mean less models to carry.

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Butte, MT

So which is the better option for running a squad of 3 arc rifles, Rangers or Vanguard? This is my main conundrum right now.
   
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Beijing, China

 ronin_cse wrote:
So which is the better option for running a squad of 3 arc rifles, Rangers or Vanguard? This is my main conundrum right now.


Vanguard every time.

Cheaper, more damage potential, and better in CC should it happen.

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Butte, MT

 Exergy wrote:
 ronin_cse wrote:
So which is the better option for running a squad of 3 arc rifles, Rangers or Vanguard? This is my main conundrum right now.


Vanguard every time.

Cheaper, more damage potential, and better in CC should it happen.


But rangers can deal more damage further away...plus they look cooler

I was thinking rangers can at least get shots off at other targets on their way to their main target, vanguard are so short range they may not get the chance...not saying you're wrong just playing devil's advocate

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/06 20:40:37


 
   
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On the note of Devils Advocate...

what do you dakkalites think would be a very bad matchup for the Skitarii?

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Beijing, China

 ronin_cse wrote:
 Exergy wrote:
 ronin_cse wrote:
So which is the better option for running a squad of 3 arc rifles, Rangers or Vanguard? This is my main conundrum right now.


Vanguard every time.

Cheaper, more damage potential, and better in CC should it happen.


But rangers can deal more damage further away...plus they look cooler

I was thinking rangers can at least get shots off at other targets on their way to their main target, vanguard are so short range they may not get the chance...not saying you're wrong just playing devil's advocate


So they can take some pot shots. 10 rangers arent gonna do much damage at long range. Surviving till the end of the game is no feat unless you are scoring on an objective. What you want to do is do damage.

at 18", which isnt a terribly close range
Vanguard do 3 times as much damage as Rangers and cost 20 points less
at 15" which is where rangers enter rapid fire, and more fair comparison
Vanguard do 50% more damage and still cost 20 points less

I would rather have -1T in combat than move through cover.

Vanguard also do an additional double damage against T6 and T7.
Vangaurd are also able to wound T8, where rangers cannot.



Now that is stock. If you are giving them arc rifles, you are gonna be splitting duty AI and AT. But Arc rifles are only effective inside 24" and most effective inside 12"




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 IHateNids wrote:
On the note of Devils Advocate...

what do you dakkalites think would be a very bad matchup for the Skitarii?


Right now im thinking old GK, all those psybacks and psycannons would just wreck them. Anything Skitarii have that deals with heavy infantry has an 18" range, so anything that can spit out Str6 AP4 at 24" or better would really neuter them.

Eldar and Tau can pretty easily dakka them out, although the dragoons do present an challenge for serpents and Rangers will do a number on Firewarriors, I dont think skitarii have anything that can chase wave serpentS or anythign that can deal with missilesides.(which will just delete anything Skitarii have)

Necrons will also probably wreck them. At least tesla got nerfed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/06 21:58:25


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