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Alright, so I was brain storming and came up with a few lists. Not really looking for critiques but figured I would give people some ideas.

First list is Ultras/Skitarii/BA Pods

Sang Priest Extra Weapon Auspex
Tac Squad with Hvy Flamer in pod
5x fast attack pods
Tiggy
3x 5 Tac Squad with plasma, combi plasma in pod
2x 3 scout bike squad - Locator Beacon
3x Grav Cents with omni
Skitarii
2x 5 Vanguard with 2x Arc Rifle, 1x Arc Pistol, Omniscope
2x 5 Vanguard with 2x plasma Caliver, Omniscope
1759 out of 1850. Can easily drop the bikes to add in something else.

Second one is

Second list taking advantage of Raptor chapter tactics: Take Ilias Issidon with two units of grav cents with allied skitarii and blood angels. Ilias comes with a locator beacon and shrouded as well as his baller abilities and reserve control. Not to mention rending hurricane bolters on your grav cents...
Lias
2x 5 man scouts in storms
2x3 Grav Cents with Omni
2x5 vanguard arc kitout
2x5 plasma kit out
Blood angels
Sang Priest
5x tac hvy flamer in pod
6x fast attack pod.
1740 - 110 points left

Just some ideas of things that work well with the Skitarii. Either of these lists would eat most of the talked about eldar lists for breakfast.

So I want my warlord to be a vanguard to make the best use of preffered enemy but I'm unsure of what to give him. How do other Admech players kit out their guys?

What I plan to run him with:

10 Vanguard: 3 Plasma, Omnispex

Phosphoenix seems like a good choice for a Vanguard Alpha, IMO.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Phosphoenix seems like a good choice for a Vanguard Alpha, IMO.

It seems too expensive, and the 6" range really hurts, as does rolling one die to hit instead of 3. I can see it's use in pod suicide squads, however.

I put the Phosphoenix on my infiltrator princeps in my killclade.

Yes, I think that is the best placement for the phosphoenix, in a unit of infiltrators who not only have no problem getting to 6 inches away, especially if they go first, but also because they are the most likely to make use of their pistols and enter close combat.

Im sad to see the list you guys are drawing up are basically a whole lot of other stuff, with a splash of skitarii. :C

 gameandwatch wrote:

Im sad to see the list you guys are drawing up are basically a whole lot of other stuff, with a splash of skitarii. :C

Well if one wants to be most competitive they must mix and match.


I wonder what would be the most competitive all Skitarii (or at least mostly Skitarii) force...

So with the castellan stats leak, seems like Phosphor blasters on the Dunecralwer is a waste.

Well, it was already a situational loadout at best, so seeing it go the way of the Dodo doesn't upset me.

Speaking of the Onagar though... only because I don't have my rules in front of me...

Does Skyfire hit Jet-Bikes at full BS? I vaguely recall it hitting flyers, skimmers, and jet-bikes at full BS, but want to be sure. If so, it makes the Icarus Array a wonderful counter to the upcoming wave of Eldar massed bikes.

The best counter is simply refuse the game, and for to's to change their ruling around. Stuff is beyond broken.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Well, it was already a situational loadout at best, so seeing it go the way of the Dodo doesn't upset me.

Speaking of the Onagar though... only because I don't have my rules in front of me...

Does Skyfire hit Jet-Bikes at full BS? I vaguely recall it hitting flyers, skimmers, and jet-bikes at full BS, but want to be sure. If so, it makes the Icarus Array a wonderful counter to the upcoming wave of Eldar massed bikes.

I thought the same thing but after looking it seems that it only mentions skimmers.

It used to mention jetbikes in 6th I believe

Puretarii TAC List I'm looking at running when I have more stuff or the Cult Mech are awful.
If Cult Mech is good, I'll ask my store manager to let me merge the dexes and run units from both factions in one CAD.

First Skitarii List-
(Codex: Skitarii - Maniple Detachment)

Troops-
Skitarii Rangers x10 (200)
-Warlord
-Conversion Field
-3x Transuranic Arquebus

Skitarii Vanguard x10 (155)
-3x Arc Rifle

Skitarii Vanguard x10 (200)
-3x Plasma Caliver
-Omnispex

Elites-
5x Sicaran Infiltrators (185)
-Taser Goad/Flechette Blaster
-Conversion Field

5x Sicaran Ruststalkers (160)

Fast Attack-
Sydonian Dragoon x2 (90)

Heavy Support-
Onager Dunecrawlers (270)
-2x Icarus Array

Onager Dunecrawlers (240)
-2x Neutron Laser

Total- 1,500

Verveidi check your math again, you only PSID points for 2 plasma calivers. Also warlord in there for preferred enemy to avoid overheat is just about mandatory.

Or use bs 6 and 7 for the two turns you might get to shoot lol

Nobody goes for the conversion field on the Infiltrator princep?

 ultimentra wrote:
Nobody goes for the conversion field on the Infiltrator princep?

I have. The Blind is nice for overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orock wrote:
Verveidi check your math again, you only PSID points for 2 plasma calivers. Also warlord in there for preferred enemy to avoid overheat is just about mandatory.

I don't like the idea of putting Warlord in a suicide squad. He will be in the corner of a building, out of LOS of the entire board, with 9 ablative wounds, 30" away from everything.

Also, my opponent thinks Plasma Calivers are undercosted.

Alright everyone, so I have been taking a close look at the Onager dunewalker and I think it has a serious place in any competitive list with the phospher launcher. Keep it cheap, no extra upgrades, single model units. 105

It is 3 twin-linked str 6 ap3 shots. Lets think about this against the current boogie man - The eldar jetbike, That is a reliable 3 wounds against jetbikes. Now think about this from the eldar players perspective:

It breaks your armor
It allows re-roll charges
It lowers future cover saves by 1
If it kills two that is a leadership test(for a 5 man) or 3(for a 10 man).

All of these are very VERY bad for jetbikes.

Do they jink? I think most eldar players will opt to jink limiting that units firepower for the next turn.

Further, if they are spamming strength 6 it takes a significant amount of fire power to drop each one.

While I am fan of the squadron for the bonus to saves, it limits the above use. I would rather try to force a jink on two-three units and not have carry over wounds instead of being more durable.

Second is the re-roll charges. One important thing to remember is that you get to re-roll your charge if ANY of your declared targets were hit by this. So if you like to multi-assault(like I do) you just declare the lumin target as the last target in the assault, get your re-rolls and if you dont make it to them O well.

I think the only one I would consider squadroning is the neutron laser. You want that save to prevent pens since you cant afford for it to get shaken, otherwise it is useless for a turn. Further whatever you are targetting with it you want the concentrated firepower. The second reason I would consider the neutron laser is for the concussive. That will shutdown a wraithknight long enough for you to get into combat with it and try and kill it before it gets to attacks. In addition it will put some serious hurt on a wraithknight.

Both of these kit outs offer significant answers to many of the issues with the eldar.

Which is more useful? Onager Phosphor spam or Kastelan Phosphor spam?

How does the PE rerolls interact with the BS of 6 or 7? It's the first time I've had that issue come up.

 Verviedi wrote:
Which is more useful? Onager Phosphor spam or Kastelan Phosphor spam?

Kastelan get a lot more shots and are a bit tougher.

6 shots normaly, 9 shots using the protocol.

 Swara wrote:
How does the PE rerolls interact with the BS of 6 or 7? It's the first time I've had that issue come up.

You can only reroll once, so use the best reroll, PE would be hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s instead of hittong on 2s and rerolling for 6s or 5s with bs 6 and 7 respectively.

 Swara wrote:
How does the PE rerolls interact with the BS of 6 or 7? It's the first time I've had that issue come up.

as far as I know it basically negates the added BS past the 2+ since the only way you miss is to roll a 1 at which time the PE kicks in and you get to reroll entirely, but since you can only ever reroll a dice once I doubt you can reroll again for the added BS. Your always better off with the PE since it lets you score the hit on a 2+ reroll instead of the 6+, 5+, or 4+ you would need from the raised BS.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 Verviedi wrote:
Which is more useful? Onager Phosphor spam or Kastelan Phosphor spam?

Kastelan get a lot more shots and are a bit tougher.

6 shots normaly, 9 shots using the protocol.

Not the most thorough comparison as you have no points costs in there! Let's see... From the leaks I believe it is 270 plus about 50 points for the robots handler? So for ~320 points is the minimum cost for the squad which you get two robots, BS3, 3 TL shots, 3 regular each. Or with the protocol 3 TL, 6 regular each. So either 6 TL, 6 regular, or 6 TL 12 regular.

Three Onagers are 315 (more likely 330 because you'd take the stubber too). That's 9 BS4 shots, plus the Skitariii doctrines that make the BS even higher.

I think you are right, those big silly robots seem to come out ahead.

2 bots and the smith is 290 base for the unit, +30 to upgrade the powerfist to blasters and the shoulder from flamer to blaster for both bots

So 2 bots, 6 shots (3 T/L, 3 non) or 9 shots with the protocol (3 TL 6 not), for 12 or 18 shots

Vs 3 crawlers at 90 points each plus 45 to upgrade them all with phosphor, 315 for 3 without a stubber, for 9 T/L BS 4 shots

Bots are tougness 7, 3+ 5++ with the silly reflect rule and 3 wounds

3 cralwers are 4++ 3 hp av 12/12/11

So cralwer squad has 9 hp total, bot squad has 8 wounds total as smith has 2 but majority toughness 7 that you can cheese with the smiths 2+ armor save if you want.

Its really close, but if it came to that, id use the Dunecrawlers as neutron lasers or Icarus

http://imgur.com/a/PQi9K

Except that the benefit does not care how many shots you put into it, just that you wound. More concentrated units do not actually help with what I am talking about. You use the phosphor as a way to buff other units, not for the damage output itself.

The second thing is that in the context of eldar you want them to jink for the minimum amount of fire power so that you can force as many units as possible to jink killing their damage output. If you have it too concentrated then they will obviously jink with the one unit. If they don't jink then they are losing 2-3 models and reduced cover. either way you win. Combined with an omnispex in most squads you are negating the significance of most cover.

thats why you want to keep it small and cheap, if they decide to kill it then woohoo shots not on your really dangerous units, if they dont ignore it then their units disappear more quickly.

I think we're talking about two different things

My comparison was just pure shooting

Unit of Kastellan vs unit of Dunecrawlers

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think we're talking about two different things

My comparison was just pure shooting

If you are just looking for damage output, there are much more efficient platforms. You can get a squad with two plasma calivers for 125 fully kitted out. Twice as many shots, plus one strength.

The only reason to take the phospur is for its debuff, and for that there is no reason to concentrate it on 1 target.

 Leth wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I think we're talking about two different things

My comparison was just pure shooting

If you are just looking for damage output, there are much more efficient platforms. You can get a squad with two plasma calivers for 125 fully kitted out. Twice as many shots, plus one strength.

The only reason to take the phospur is for its debuff, and for that there is no reason to concentrate it on 1 target.

Just output vs the two platforms we know that can take the heavy phospor blasters, comparing vanguards to either is apples and oranges.

Except that comparing platforms without looking at the REASON for taking the gun makes any comparison flawed.

My point is that this gun is not taken for its damage output, it is taken for its debuff. So I am looking at it from the angle of "what is the best way to debuff as many units as possible"

Second is that while the robots might overall be better the minimum cost prohibits their easy inclusion in a list. I just took my 1750, 1850, and 2000 point lists and was able to finagle the points around to get 1-2 of the onagers in. for 300 points+ I am now dropping entire units.

However I agree that we are looking at the gun for different reasons. In my lists that debuff provides a HUGE boost, as well as will help me deal with the new eldar. If you don't have many units that will benefit then it doesn't make sense to approach it from that angle.

My biggest problem with concentrating the deployment is that the more shots you are putting into the target the earlier you want the debuff to be applied. at 300-400 points that is a sizable chunk of your army that is not benefiting.

Ill agree that individual onagers are great harass units, granted 3 shots on a over 100 point platform is...meh, they do provide decent area denial with 36" range.

As soon as you have more than 1 onager per squadron, they function instead as delete units instead of buff/harass/debuff units.

The bots are cool, don't get me wrong, but they are definitely just a delete unit. Their purpose is solely maximum casualties, and a hoard of them kept as melee backed up by infiltrators is downright terrifying. The ranged versions, even as just the unit of 2 is as straight forward a delete unit you can get. 12-18 S6 ap3 shots is there for one purpose, and that is to remove a power armor or worse unit per turn. Especially if you keep the ranged canticle on, you just turret up with your 36" range and deny the enemy half the board space.
I think the two units in unison can do some really great things. Individual onagers to give either the melee versions rerolled charged ranges, or to make the ranged ones more effective, or you use the onagers to force msu units to take cover while the bots setup and delete the most dangerous unit each turn.

I like individual onagers personally, the only time I would take them in a unit is a unit of 2 for anti-air duty.