Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Plasma on the vanguard unit is good if that unit has the alpha warlord for preferred enemy. Otherwise its a bit risky

Not to mention oppressively expensive. It had a debatable place in the army until we saw the typhoon of AP3/2 Cult Mechanicus can offer, now I can't see it ever being justifiable.

Super Newb wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Super Newb wrote:
The kit has 10 rifles and 10 rad carbines. So both Rangers and Vanguard can be built with 10 guys all with stock weapon.

The alpha doesn't need to upgrade and can be taken with the stock gun.

There is 1 rifle and one carbine each that are made to be held 1 handed. So you can put an Omnispex in the other hand. This is the best build.

Omnispex is good, yeah. I was just pointing out that the kit has enough for everyone in the squad to field the stock guns. The one handed rifle could be paired with an empty pointing arm if someone wants to do that for some reason.

The 'best' build is really 3 arc rifles, 1 omnispex, 5 stock dudes and 1 stock alpha.

I thought the omnispex needed to be on the alpha. does it go to a stock dude?

Goes on stock dude, yes.

Omnispex has to go on a regular dude. There is no option for the alpha to take it.

Super Newb wrote:

The 'best' build is really 3 arc rifles, 1 omnispex, 5 stock dudes and 1 stock alpha.

Thanks. That's what I was basically asking

So say I get 3 boxes (for the Arc rifles), what do I do with the other 20 dudes?

FYI I'm going for 1) A stand alone 500p list and 2) Some support for my Blood Angels.

I would say go for a 3-Arc 10 man Vanguard, a 3-Plasma 10 man vanguard, both with omnispexes, and two 5-man rangers to camp backfield, arquebusses (arquebi?) optional.

This is 500 right on the button:

5 Rangers with 2 arquebi and Omnispex

10 Vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex and Conversion Field

10 Vandguard with 3 Plasma Caliver, Omnispex and Conversion Field.

Det Thyge wrote:
This is 500 right on the button:
5 Rangers with 2 arquebi and Omnispex
10 Vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex and Conversion Field
10 Vandguard with 3 Plasma Caliver, Omnispex and Conversion Field.

OR
10 Vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles, Omnispex and Conversion Field
10 Vandguard with 3 Plasma Caliver, Omnispex and Conversion Field
5 Rangers
5 Rangers

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Plasma on the vanguard unit is good if that unit has the alpha warlord for preferred enemy. Otherwise its a bit risky

Not to mention oppressively expensive. It had a debatable place in the army until we saw the typhoon of AP3/2 Cult Mechanicus can offer, now I can't see it ever being justifiable.

Yea stock Vanguard with an omnispex are looking good after seeing how much low ap grav shots the Kataphron destroyers can put out.

I put an email in to GW's FAQ address; hopefully I can get a bit more clarification.

I don't want this like my Doctrine Guard book to the follow-on, where my Lasgunner Sergeants lost their weapons.

Eh, they come stock with the rad carbine and they may take other stuff. May not must. That's pretty clear to me.

For me it's simply the fact that it does not say "The Ranger/Vanguard Alpha may replace their X with options from the Melee and Ranged Weapon lists".

Question, as I don't have the White Dwarf with the rules in, what is the difference between the Destroyers and the Breachers? I assume different weapon choices?

 Kanluwen wrote:
For me it's simply the fact that it does not say "The Ranger/Vanguard Alpha may replace their X with options from the Melee and Ranged Weapon lists".

Those lists tell you what to replace on that page with the lists themselves. In the ranged weapon list it says something like a model may replace their ranged weapon with one of the following. Under the melee list it doesn't say replace just to take one of the options.

Decay wrote:
Question, as I don't have the White Dwarf with the rules in, what is the difference between the Destroyers and the Breachers? I assume different weapon choices?

Destroyers are 4+ Armor, have a secondary gun (either a Flamer or Bolter equivalent with special rules), and their main guns are either Plasma Cannons or 6 shot Grav Guns

Breachers are 3+ and have a CCW instead of a second gun. Their main guns are either a two shot Haywire gun or a S8 AP2 gun that deals 1d3 HP or Wounds instead of 1.


Rest of the statlines are the same iirc.

 Kanluwen wrote:
For me it's simply the fact that it does not say "The Ranger/Vanguard Alpha may replace their X with options from the Melee and Ranged Weapon lists".

Erm, it does it say that. The entry reads:

*May select up to five additional Skitarii Vanguard.......points
*The Vanguard(/Ranger) Alpha may take items from the Ranged Weapons, Melee Weapons, Special Issue Wargear and Relics of Mars lists.
etc

And the lists specify whether you have to replace an existing weapon(Ranged) or take it in addition to your basic weapon(everything else).

It's definitely a choice, no ambiguity.

As for the main topic atm; I have to agree with the general consensus; Vanguard blow Rangers out of the water, and in a combined Skitter/CultMech list Arc-Vanguard are the way to go. All-Caliver Vanguard are useful in a pure Skitarii list, or in smaller unit sizes for pod-related Ally shenanigans, but otherwise I'll be running two Arc Rifles and eight "cancer carbines"(lovely, hah) per-squad and relying on Grav-Cents, Grav-Phrons, Plasma-Phrons, Kastelans etc for AP firepower.

I still think one squad of plasma vanguard is fine even with allies. 9 plasma shots at BS7 on the first turn, with 7 ablative wounds is nothing to sneeze at.

Super Newb wrote:
I still think one squad of plasma vanguard is fine even with allies. 9 plasma shots at BS7 on the first turn, with 7 ablative wounds is nothing to sneeze at.

For 200pts, it is. The equivalent in Kataphrons is 24 grav shots. Granted at BS3, but with only two less wounds overall at a higher toughness and longer range. Suspending knowledge of the Canticles of the Omnissiah, I'll still elect for Kataphrons for the raw damage output, or Kastelans for an in-between.

Two wounds and you lose 6 grav shots. Two wounds on skitarii and you still have 9 plasma shots. Oh yeah, speaking of those 7 other squad members, let's not forget the 21 rad carbine shots that come with that as well.

Plasma Vanguard are pricey and I'm not saying to spam them but they compare more favorably to the Cult Mechanicus tank tread guys than how you characterized them.

Super Newb wrote:
Two wounds and you lose 6 grav shots. Two wounds on skitarii and you still have 9 plasma shots. Oh yeah, speaking of those 7 other squad members, let's not forget the 21 rad carbine shots that come with that as well.

Plasma Vanguard are pricey and I'm not saying to spam them but they compare more favorably to the Cult Mechanicus tank tread guys than how you characterized them.

Hardly. Because taking two wounds on Vanguard is much easier than taking two wounds on Kataphrons. +2 Toughness and +12'' range does a world of good for survivability. Even more if only a single wound is suffered, or shots come from varying directions. I won't deny that Vanguard have their place in AdMech armies - lord knows I've advocated them often enough - but carrying plasma guns isn't it.

But two wounds on vanguard barely changes their offensive power. They have 8 ablative wounds (sarge has two wounds)!!! The other guys, no.

Vanguard are T3 with a 4+ save and a let's not forget a lame fnp roll as well. The other guys are T5 with a 4+ save. It's not a big difference when two measly wounds from the same direction kills one of your special weapons - something that would not happen when vanguard take their initial two wounds.

My point is it's closer than you think.

Except that you need to factor in other limitations like pod space and that ballistic skill as well as -1 cover save. After factoring everything in I am more of a fan of the vanguard at present. Will have to see

If there is one thing that the kataphrons do amazingly well, is draw attention away from basically everything else... hahaha Most people will see "how many grav shots you say?!" and think "forget the little guys with cancer guns, MUST KILL ATTACKTRON" I see that happening in many games. This is why, unless there is some really cool stuff the HQs can get, I never see kats running in larger squads than 3, just not worth the extra points for what is likely a bullet sponge.

Ironically, this is exactly what skitarii needs as nothing they have is very survivable and anything that takes attention off of their glass cannon units is welcome.

(Finally coming back out of a year-long lurking...)

Thoughts on Elysian droptroops allied in to Skitarii? Similar to drop-pod but fluffier, with turn 1 Valks deepstriking in hover mode, disembark, shoot. (I believe that's still a thing - I haven't checked my Elysian FW book in a while...) Droptroops also provide plenty of enemy deployment area target saturation which hopefully distracts alpha striking armies from Vanguard and Sicarians advancing up the board T1 for their T2 charges.

Also, here's a quick 1850 Skitarii-Knight list I also pulled out, shooty-heavy. Thoughts?

Troops
---
3x 5-man Rangers, 2x transarq w/ omnispex
2x 10-man Vanguard squad, 3 arc rifles w/ omnispex

Fast Attack
---
2x 3-strong Dragoons w/ Radium jezzails

Heavy
---
1x 1-strong Onager Dunecrawler, Icarus Array w/ Cognis
1x 2-strong Onager Dunecrawlers, Neutron Lasers w/ Cognis Stubber

Knight
---
1x Knight Crusader w/ batcan, Stormspear pod

Total: 1850 points

Super Newb wrote:
But two wounds on vanguard barely changes their offensive power. They have 8 ablative wounds (sarge has two wounds)!!! The other guys, no.

Vanguard are T3 with a 4+ save and a let's not forget a lame fnp roll as well. The other guys are T5 with a 4+ save. It's not a big difference when two measly wounds from the same direction kills one of your special weapons - something that would not happen when vanguard take their initial two wounds.

My point is it's closer than you think.

What is closer? Their survivability? Variable upon type of weapon and range. Kataphron are immensely more durable against small arms fire, Vanguard more so to high strength / low AP. Kataphron are more durable to blast weapons due to base size, Vanguard do better when the range shortens up and assaults are threatened. Yet when I look at the stats on both and my own experience fielding the Skitarii thus far - I shun the very notion of plasma on Vanguard. Where Kataphrons take two, Vanguards take five or more. Where Vanguard need the 18'' marker to unload, Kataphron do so from 30'' back. When Vanguard hit something T7, Kataphron hit it harder. When Kataphron hit T5 and below, Vanguard hit it harder - this I grant - but at a dangerous range, on a flimsy platform, with a volatile weapon. I won't judge the Vanguards alongside Doctrinas without accounting for Canticles of the Omnissiah or formations - the former we don't know and the latter has already been rumored to send Kataphrons through the roof.

Could be it's closer than I think - but what I've seen both on the table and off has me yearning for two squads of Kataphrons if not three, shielded by Arc Rifle Vanguard and Onager support. Every Caliver I don't take is three and a third more Vanguard that I do.

Ehhh, I assault with my army and so having that -1 toughness is pretty huge for me, especially against things like wraith knight. In addition having 9 point LOS wounds for my units is quite nice. Also those rad guns do work, seriously it is pretty impressive

I don't think there is a clear cut case of x is better than y. They both have very different roles within a list. If I am looking for a prodded sacrifice squad, vanguard are the way to go. I need the unit to show up, do so,etching and then it is going to die, regardless of how durable it is. However one thing the Kaphs have is that they can fit into things like a bunker or bastion, greatly increasing their protection and ability to fire. Trade offs really.

 Leth wrote:
Ehhh, I assault with my army and so having that -1 toughness is pretty huge for me, especially against things like wraith knight. In addition having 9 point LOS wounds for my units is quite nice. Also those rad guns do work, seriously it is pretty impressive

I don't think there is a clear cut case of x is better than y. They both have very different roles within a list. If I am looking for a prodded sacrifice squad, vanguard are the way to go. I need the unit to show up, do so,etching and then it is going to die, regardless of how durable it is. However one thing the Kaphs have is that they can fit into things like a bunker or bastion, greatly increasing their protection and ability to fire. Trade offs really.

I'm not saying Vanguard or Kataphrons are the better unit. I'm saying Kataphrons are the better AP2 platform.

Another question, about allies this time. I've already made a Skitarii force of 600 pts, but I wanted to increase this to 1250pts via the use of DA allies. I was wondering if the Ravenwing are effective allies for the Skitarii and does the fact that they are on bike help the Skitarii secure back field objectives and make a better strike force?

Decay wrote:
Another question, about allies this time. I've already made a Skitarii force of 600 pts, but I wanted to increase this to 1250pts via the use of DA allies. I was wondering if the Ravenwing are effective allies for the Skitarii and does the fact that they are on bike help the Skitarii secure back field objectives and make a better strike force?

This is what I'm playing. If you're looking for board control, Scout and Crusader mean they dominate the mid-field. Bikes also scout and are in your opponent's deployment zone on the second turn and they can't leave. This prevents your opponent from scoring Progressive/Maelstrom objectives. I got tabled by a null-deployment drop pod list tho.

I'm also trying Rustalkers in a Land Raider. It's fun but probably not worth the points.

So I was thinking a combined detachment to go with the Maniple and taking Sammael as a HQ, or is he too expensive at a 1250pts level? I was just taking him so that Ravenwing Attack squads are Troops and so that I could take a Ravenwing Command Squad