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regarding the torsion cannon.

at AP1 and causing d3 hps it has a decent potential to 1 shot a knight.

you get to do d3 HP and roll on the pen table, at ap1 if you roll an explodes result you do an additional d3 HP, so 1 shot can potentially do 6hp to a SH vehicle.

The gun is nasty on its own but because of how the Super Heavy vehicle rules work, it actually can do more damage versus a SH vehicle than it can versus any other target.

The range on the heavy arc rifle is good, and it is haywire but dismissing the power of the torsion cannon all the time is a mistake IMO. I think there are situations/opponents where the torsion cannon is much more useful.

blaktoof wrote:
regarding the torsion cannon.

at AP1 and causing d3 hps it has a decent potential to 1 shot a knight.

you get to do d3 HP and roll on the pen table, at ap1 if you roll an explodes result you do an additional d3 HP, so 1 shot can potentially do 6hp to a SH vehicle.

The gun is nasty on its own but because of how the Super Heavy vehicle rules work, it actually can do more damage versus a SH vehicle than it can versus any other target.

The range on the heavy arc rifle is good, and it is haywire but dismissing the power of the torsion cannon all the time is a mistake IMO. I think there are situations/opponents where the torsion cannon is much more useful.

BS5 for only 2 turns makes me nervous, though. And additionally, landing a hit is one thing, but if my opponent has a decent cover save its not as effective in my opinion as say, a ton of grav shots. I wish Torsion Cannons were 2 shot, I'd be a little less skeptical about taking them.

I'm not sure "high chance" of one shotting a Knight is the right way to put it. It has a chance, sure, unlike any other gun that's not D, but it's not high.

Roll to hit (without canticles) is 50%
Pen against front armor 13 (which they'll do if they're smart) is 16%
They save 50% if they have the shield there
Chance to get explodes is 33%
Chance to get explodes of 3HP is 33%
Chance to get Torsion of 3 is 33%

So that's only a .1% chance, statistically. "High" is not the word I'd use.

That increases if you have Canticles, hit Side or Rear Armor, and bypass shield. It jumps to .925% chance to instakill in one shot. So... still not great.

Maybe my math is off, but I don't think so.
1 * 1/2(hit) * 1/6(pen) * 1/2(invuln) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00154
1 * 3/4(hit) * 1/3(pen) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00926

I mean, a unit of 3 has a pretty good chance of killing it in one go just with Torsion and average exploding, but one shot? Not likely.

I apologize, at the end of my post I was talking about the gun singular, but at begining without stating I was talking about an unit with the gun.

an unit of breachers with torsion cannons is much less points than a knight.

You could very reasonably have two breacher squads of 4 models with torsion cannons for the cost of 1 knight.

Consider you most likely can not put them right on top of each other so the knight has to pick a facing to shield, and you can probably get side armor with one of the units.

Of course 8 haywire shots from arc rifles would mess up a knight pretty well too and from more range which i absolutely concede is utterly true, but the torsion cannons will mess up the knight, but also threaten things like Terminators, 3+ save models, MCs, 2+ save models, and the arc rifles don't.

and yes a bunch of grav shots is often better as well, but this unit cannot get grav.

your math is not off.

also I said decent potential, not high Consider most things have 0 potential to 1 shot a knight, and then .9% is pretty decent per shot. It only gets better where you look at tournaments where there are no D weapons, or D weapons are modified to do significantly less damage.

Requizen wrote:
I'm not sure "high chance" of one shotting a Knight is the right way to put it. It has a chance, sure, unlike any other gun that's not D, but it's not high.

Roll to hit (without canticles) is 50%
Pen against front armor 13 (which they'll do if they're smart) is 16%
They save 50% if they have the shield there
Chance to get explodes is 33%
Chance to get explodes of 3HP is 33%
Chance to get Torsion of 3 is 33%

So that's only a .1% chance, statistically. "High" is not the word I'd use.

That increases if you have Canticles, hit Side or Rear Armor, and bypass shield. It jumps to .925% chance to instakill in one shot. So... still not great.

Maybe my math is off, but I don't think so.
1 * 1/2(hit) * 1/6(pen) * 1/2(invuln) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00154
1 * 3/4(hit) * 1/3(pen) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00926

I mean, a unit of 3 has a pretty good chance of killing it in one go just with Torsion and average exploding, but one shot? Not likely.

Oh the 1 shot from our test was pure luck, plain and simple. It was just one of those moments where afterwards we were just like "woah, that is kinda crazy"

As for Breachers vs Destroyers, I think if you are running pure Cult, or at least mostly cult, I would use both. Like 3 squads of min destroyers with grav, 1 squad of min breachers with arc as a pure anti-tank, and 1 squad of 5 with torsion with an attached dominus as the death dealer squad. That comes out to 1110 points which leaves you plenty of room for other things like a cohort formation (cannot get over how good this formation is)

You could run a list like this:

HQ:
Dominus, conversion field, Skryerskull perspicatus 135

Troops:
x5 breachers, torsion 250
x3 breachers, arc 150
x3 destroyers, grav 165
x3 destroyers, grav 165
x3 destroyers, grav 165

Cohort:
Dominus, autocadeus of arkhan land, conversion field 140
x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith, Raiment of the technomartyr 350
x2 kastelan robots, x2 twin linked heavy phosphur, x2 phosphur, datasmith 320

Total: 1840

Everything is low ap except arc, everything majority T5 or better, long range, multiwound. Could be a really nasty army. Only 25 models, but with a surprising amount of durability and with a firepower output especially for an alpha strike that is just crazy CRAZY strong. Also 9 units so you get the max canticle ability: Including 2 turns of everything twin-linked and 2 turns of everything with stealth and shrouded. I can say with all confidence that I would not want to face this

Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?

 gameandwatch wrote:
you can basically give all your units BS5 twice during the game (BS 3 rerolling 1s and 2s).

BS3 rerolling 1s and 2s is exactly as effective as BS4, not 5. BS3 twinlinked is not even as good as BS5.

Considering Torsion really only seems to shine vs superheavies and large wound count MCs, and most superheavies have high enough AV to minimize a lot of damage potential from the Str8 of Torsion, I'd wager it really only has a place vs high wound count MCs with poor armor. Heavy Arc ought to outstrip Torsion vs Superheavies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?

Instinct tells me 16% of them. Roughly.

I think there's one highly amusing difference between the Breachers and Destroyers: Both of the Breacher's guns are fairly balanced against one another, both being useful in their own ways and can have realistic arguments for seeing the battlefield.

Meanwhile, Plasma Destroyers are so hilariously beaten out by Grav Destroyers that almost no one considers using them, period.

Yea short ranged gets hot blasts dont compare to 6 shots of grav goodness at 30 inches

WrentheFaceless wrote:Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?

1 out of 6 is average, but the key wording on the shield is that the reflect applies to ANY save of a 6 a kastellan makes. This means armor, cover and invul saves can all reflect shots which is great. The shield reflection only sometimes comes into play, though we did have a kastellan reflect a Wraithknight D shot (he passed his cover save though so it nullified but was still a scary/ amusing moment)

Exergy wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
you can basically give all your units BS5 twice during the game (BS 3 rerolling 1s and 2s).

BS3 rerolling 1s and 2s is exactly as effective as BS4, not 5. BS3 twinlinked is not even as good as BS5.

BS5 hits 5 of 6 shots where as BS3 rerolling 1s and 2s hits 4, so not as good, sure, but much better than just straight BS3. Was just pointing out that the 1 shot isn't so bad when you can nearly twin link them, or with enough units twin link them.

obsidiankatana wrote:Considering Torsion really only seems to shine vs superheavies and large wound count MCs, and most superheavies have high enough AV to minimize a lot of damage potential from the Str8 of Torsion, I'd wager it really only has a place vs high wound count MCs with poor armor. Heavy Arc ought to outstrip Torsion vs Superheavies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Out of curiosity gameandwatch, your Kastellan unit, how many shots fired at them were reflected back?

Instinct tells me 16% of them. Roughly.

^ though everytime it happens, man is it funny
Torsion is good for those, and deathstars, and 2+ save models like dreadknights or riptides. It certainly has a place.

Dreadknights or Riptides are better dealt with by way of Grav Cannon. I grant, that means we no longer talk about Breachers, but both are troops and are of comparable cost. I can't speak to Deathstars - but each grav cannon has a maximum damage output capability of six wounds spread among six models of a unit, saved separately. Torsion cannon has a maximum three wounds to a single model saved as a package. My instincts say Grav wins here too.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Dreadknights or Riptides are better dealt with by way of Grav Cannon. I grant, that means we no longer talk about Breachers, but both are troops and are of comparable cost. I can't speak to Deathstars - but each grav cannon has a maximum damage output capability of six wounds spread among six models of a unit, saved separately. Torsion cannon has a maximum three wounds to a single model saved as a package. My instincts say Grav wins here too.

that's a tough call. 18 BS3 grav shots will get ~9 hits at BS3, which will average 6 wounds on 3+ armor with no save. 3 torsion cannons will average 1.5 hits, which is basically d3 wounds to 1 model. Against meq/teq squads grav is phenomenally better than torsion. Against large MC type things, grav is also better. Against vehicles, 18BS3 grav shots is average 9 hits, which is 1.5 rolls of 6 in mathhammer. So 1 immobilize result on a vehicle. 3 torsion shots is 1.5hits, aganst av14 is .24 effects, av 13 is .495 effects, av 12 is .75 effects, av11 is .9999 effects, and av 10 is 1.299 effects. With a scaling component of a chance to do d3 hp instead of 1 for av 13 and less. Against AV 11-10 torsion is superior, discount saves/cover/jinking/etc.

I think the other factor is the models durability, destroyers are armor 4+, there are not a lot of ap4 weapons out there but should you run into a lot of heavy bolters(unlikely), autocannons (possible), lootas, missilsides, the gauss guns thate are ap4 (immortals, necron bikes) etc the grav units may not be firing for as many turns as the torsion units.

 gameandwatch wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I'm not sure "high chance" of one shotting a Knight is the right way to put it. It has a chance, sure, unlike any other gun that's not D, but it's not high.

Roll to hit (without canticles) is 50%
Pen against front armor 13 (which they'll do if they're smart) is 16%
They save 50% if they have the shield there
Chance to get explodes is 33%
Chance to get explodes of 3HP is 33%
Chance to get Torsion of 3 is 33%

So that's only a .1% chance, statistically. "High" is not the word I'd use.

That increases if you have Canticles, hit Side or Rear Armor, and bypass shield. It jumps to .925% chance to instakill in one shot. So... still not great.

Maybe my math is off, but I don't think so.
1 * 1/2(hit) * 1/6(pen) * 1/2(invuln) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00154
1 * 3/4(hit) * 1/3(pen) * 1/3(explode) * 1/3(3HP explode) * 1/3(3HP Torsion) = .00926

I mean, a unit of 3 has a pretty good chance of killing it in one go just with Torsion and average exploding, but one shot? Not likely.

Oh the 1 shot from our test was pure luck, plain and simple. It was just one of those moments where afterwards we were just like "woah, that is kinda crazy"

As for Breachers vs Destroyers, I think if you are running pure Cult, or at least mostly cult, I would use both. Like 3 squads of min destroyers with grav, 1 squad of min breachers with arc as a pure anti-tank, and 1 squad of 5 with torsion with an attached dominus as the death dealer squad. That comes out to 1110 points which leaves you plenty of room for other things like a cohort formation (cannot get over how good this formation is)

What about in a Cult + Skitarii army?

blaktoof wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Dreadknights or Riptides are better dealt with by way of Grav Cannon. I grant, that means we no longer talk about Breachers, but both are troops and are of comparable cost. I can't speak to Deathstars - but each grav cannon has a maximum damage output capability of six wounds spread among six models of a unit, saved separately. Torsion cannon has a maximum three wounds to a single model saved as a package. My instincts say Grav wins here too.

that's a tough call. 18 BS3 grav shots will get ~9 hits at BS3, which will average 6 wounds on 3+ armor with no save. 3 torsion cannons will average 1.5 hits, which is basically d3 wounds to 1 model. Against meq/teq squads grav is phenomenally better than torsion. Against large MC type things, grav is also better. Against vehicles, 18BS3 grav shots is average 9 hits, which is 1.5 rolls of 6 in mathhammer. So 1 immobilize result on a vehicle. 3 torsion shots is 1.5hits, aganst av14 is .24 effects, av 13 is .495 effects, av 12 is .75 effects, av11 is .9999 effects, and av 10 is 1.299 effects. With a scaling component of a chance to do d3 hp instead of 1 for av 13 and less. Against AV 11-10 torsion is superior, discount saves/cover/jinking/etc.

I think the other factor is the models durability, destroyers are armor 4+, there are not a lot of ap4 weapons out there but should you run into a lot of heavy bolters(unlikely), autocannons (possible), lootas, missilsides, the gauss guns thate are ap4 (immortals, necron bikes) etc the grav units may not be firing for as many turns as the torsion units.

1.5 rounds to 2 as easily as one. Destroyers aren't as durable, that's undeniable, but if they weren't there's a good chance you'd never see Breachers.

 Enigwolf wrote:


Cheers, thanks very much for the feedback. A lot of it makes sense, and confirms what I suspected. I have a soft spot for breachers, because of their 3+ armor and their ability to take 36" Heavy Arc Guns compensates for the lack of Arc Rifles (max 3) in a War Congregation because of the 1 Vanguard squad max. In what types of lists would you be taking Arc or Torsion Breachers over Destroyers? I'm thinking that the rest of a War Congregation already puts out ridiculously stupid amounts of general dakka dakka that the anti-tank/anti-LoW utility from Heavy Arc Guns has more marginal benefit.

War Congregation gets 1 Vanguard and 1 Ranger squad, so can take 6 arc rifles, and 2 arc pistols if you like.

I do like breachers for heavy arc though.

 Exergy wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:


Cheers, thanks very much for the feedback. A lot of it makes sense, and confirms what I suspected. I have a soft spot for breachers, because of their 3+ armor and their ability to take 36" Heavy Arc Guns compensates for the lack of Arc Rifles (max 3) in a War Congregation because of the 1 Vanguard squad max. In what types of lists would you be taking Arc or Torsion Breachers over Destroyers? I'm thinking that the rest of a War Congregation already puts out ridiculously stupid amounts of general dakka dakka that the anti-tank/anti-LoW utility from Heavy Arc Guns has more marginal benefit.

War Congregation gets 1 Vanguard and 1 Ranger squad, so can take 6 arc rifles, and 2 arc pistols if you like.

I do like breachers for heavy arc though.

Typically Rangers are best kept at range with Arquebuses, so that leaves a Vanguard squad, which is easily slain if your opponent knows their target priority. Hm. Breachers for Heavy Arc doe...

With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

War Congregation gets 1 Vanguard and 1 Ranger squad, so can take 6 arc rifles, and 2 arc pistols if you like.

I do like breachers for heavy arc though.

Typically Rangers are best kept at range with Arquebuses, so that leaves a Vanguard squad, which is easily slain if your opponent knows their target priority. Hm. Breachers for Heavy Arc doe...

I mean technically if you are going with the free upgrades, you are going to have plasma on the Vanguard and Arquebuses on the Rangers. So you will be having heavy arc rifles on your breachers of course.

 gameandwatch wrote:
With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.

I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.

24 inch range on a fairly slow platform that cant run hurt him.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.

I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.

Well part of the problem he had is placement, I find the best way to run the servitors is to stick them in the middle and make a bubble of death. As for particularly the torsion cannons, one way you could bypass this is with the deep strike formation, though I have yet to use it so cannot comment on its effectiveness

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.

I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.

Well part of the problem he had is placement, I find the best way to run the servitors is to stick them in the middle and make a bubble of death. As for particularly the torsion cannons, one way you could bypass this is with the deep strike formation, though I have yet to use it so cannot comment on its effectiveness

I'm not a fan of the deep strike formation, since you'll at most be 12" from an objective.. And that's by stringing your units out. If your opponent knows its coming, its not hard to set up in preparation for it.

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
With Cult and Skitarii, that really depends on how much of each you want. My normal list uses both, but will likely not use any destroyers or breachers ONLY because there are so many shoe in models for me from skitarii from a pure aesthetic standpoint. I do play competitively but not unless the army Im using has a flavor I like.

I'm watching the Frontline Gaming video again, this time actually paying more attention. I think the biggest disadvantage of the Torsion Cannon, same with the plasma, is its 24" range. Fun thing they pointed out, the Scryerskull in combination with the 4 on the Warlord Traits table (letting you pick what an objective does) allows you to identify your opponent's objective and make it explode... lmao.

Well part of the problem he had is placement, I find the best way to run the servitors is to stick them in the middle and make a bubble of death. As for particularly the torsion cannons, one way you could bypass this is with the deep strike formation, though I have yet to use it so cannot comment on its effectiveness

I'm not a fan of the deep strike formation. If your opponent knows its coming, its not hard to set up in preparation for it.

It's also kinda screwed if you end up playing Purge the Alien or a custom with no Markers.

Man, I really wanted to want to use some of the other types, but the benefits of the Grav relative to everything else and the planned composition of the rest of my forces makes it so difficult.

I'll have Arc out the backside with at least two units of Vanguard with full-Arc, and in Rhinos as well so the range isn't as big a limitation - makes Heavy Arc somewhat redundant. Plasma and Torsion suffer from all the issues everyone's already pointed out - poor range, grav does most of their jobs better or just as well etc.

Literally the only reason for me not to take Grav Destroyers is I was planning on using allied Grav-Centurions to represent my Myrmidon models, but since they're not painted yet I could swap out the grav weaponry for Lascannons and make them Cult of Sollex Destructors instead.

Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?

 Enigwolf wrote:
Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?

He played it wrong, they absolutely hit flyers, as the repulsor grid shots do not roll to hit and so hard to hit is irrelevant. THe language is quite clear.

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?

He played it wrong, they absolutely hit flyers, as the repulsor grid shots do not roll to hit and so hard to hit is irrelevant. THe language is quite clear.

Actually it is not clear. The rules for flyers clearly state that abilities that auto hit don't work against flyers. This is entirely an FAQ or TO decision.

 ansacs wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:

 Enigwolf wrote:
Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?

He played it wrong, they absolutely hit flyers, as the repulsor grid shots do not roll to hit and so hard to hit is irrelevant. THe language is quite clear.

Actually it is not clear. The rules for flyers clearly state that abilities that auto hit don't work against flyers. This is entirely an FAQ or TO decision.

I must have missed that, I stand corrected. If it says they cannot be hit by auto hits, then THAT language is clear and they cannot hit flyers.

 Enigwolf wrote:
Thoughts on Kastelan Repulsor Grids and flyers in Zoom mode? Reece played it that reflected shots can't hit flyers as they can only be hit by snap shots - but given that Repulsor Grid states that it "automatically hits", which takes precedence?

Just posted this topic in YMDC, only person that answered stated it would work on invis and FMC but not zooming vehicles.