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I'll be working on modeling my Alphas with power swords, so many games where it would have come in handy so much more than a rifle. War Convocation is an army that is constantly moving forward together like a gigantic steamroller, this will often bring your troops into charge range.

 Sienisoturi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:My Ranger Alphas keep their rifles. Nothing saying they can't have 'em. Only exception is my Ranger squad with Arc Rifles, where he has an Arc Maul and Arc Pistol.
Is it a good setup? Nope! But I don't care...because Haywire!

Vanguard Alphas get phospher pistols and the taser bits.

UnstableDominus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
My Ranger Alphas keep their rifles. Nothing saying they can't have 'em. Only exception is my Ranger squad with Arc Rifles, where he has an Arc Maul and Arc Pistol.
Is it a good setup? Nope! But I don't care...because Haywire!

Vanguard Alphas get phospher pistols and the taser bits.

My Ranger Alphas keep their rifles as well. We have a lot of non MEQ where we play so those rifles can be indispensable. My Vanguard Alpha on the other hand uses a Radium Pistol and a Taser Goad. My Vanguard Alpha is more expensive than he has any right to be, but when the Taser Goad works it is fantastic. Like beating down a Mawloc in close combat before it can eat my Dominus.

Verviedi wrote:My Plasma Vanguard Alpha has the standard radium carbine and conversion field. My Arc Alpha has arc maul/arc pistol and conversion field, and my Ranger alpha has Arkhan's Divinator and a standard rifle.

Thanks for the replies, but I still fail to see how a melee weapon would be useful in a ranged squad?

Don't think of Vanguard as "ranged squads".

Their ideal range is similar to a lot of the Sisters of Battle units; mid/short range. Carbines are 18", Plasma Calivers(a GREAT choice for the squad) are 18" and both are Assault weapons.
Couple that with their little -1T when in combat and units of barebones Vanguard with a melee weapon equipped Alpha on a turn where you've done a +WS Doctrina Imperative can wipe the floor with other ranged reliant units if they make it through Overwatch.

Additionally, they're a great unit for synergized charges where you put the Vanguard in and remove a point of Toughness, then charge with Sicarian. It gets NASTY.

You can get a unit such as Centurions or Wraiths in CC with a squad of Vanguard, then charge in with Dragoons.
Instagib attacks.

I always keep the rifle for my alpha, but if I find myself with a few extra points I will throw on an arcmaul. It is decent at clubbing people and if i need to take off that last hp on what my rifles just shot at I can charge in and get it.

I have been dissappointed every game with my TA rifles as well. The range is great, but they are not as good at killling things as plasma, and not as good at popping tanks as arc. I really regret assembling 3 of them for my rangers...I would trade them for arc rifles in a heartbeat.

The arquebus is indeed a POS. You could make that ranger unit the warlord for preferred enemy, so you at least improve their chance to wound a bit (from 50% to ~58%).

Arc mauls are too damn expensive, and pistols are usually not as good as the base gun (radium carbine and galvanic rifle both), plus require extra investment if you want to benefit for the extra attack.

I leave my Alphas with basic gear except maybe conversion field, unless it's convocation, in which case go nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
I'll be working on modeling my Alphas with power swords, so many games where it would have come in handy so much more than a rifle. War Convocation is an army that is constantly moving forward together like a gigantic steamroller, this will often bring your troops into charge range.

Power swords are not ideal. Assuming we're talking about Vanguard so you're effectively WS3 S4 I3. How many space marine players do you know who bother with power swords at WS4 S4 I4? Not any of the good ones. The taser is cheaper and is not much weaker against marines.

3 power sword attacks, 50% hit rate, 50% wound rate = 0.75 wounds
3 taser goad attacks, 50% hit rate, 83.33% wound rate, 33% failed saves = 0.41 wounds.

If one of those taser hits rolls a 6, you're looking at 0.96 wounds.

If you're talking max damage potential, a power sword will maximum kill 3 models. A taser goad will kill 9.

Now if we could take power axes, then hell yes I'd take some, but otherwise the Alpha power swords are just cool bits in my bits box I intend to use for my 30k Marines.

HandofMars wrote:
The arquebus is indeed a POS. You could make that ranger unit the warlord for preferred enemy, so you at least improve their chance to wound a bit (from 50% to ~58%).

Arc mauls are too damn expensive, and pistols are usually not as good as the base gun (radium carbine and galvanic rifle both), plus require extra investment if you want to benefit for the extra attack.

I leave my Alphas with basic gear except maybe conversion field, unless it's convocation, in which case go nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
I'll be working on modeling my Alphas with power swords, so many games where it would have come in handy so much more than a rifle. War Convocation is an army that is constantly moving forward together like a gigantic steamroller, this will often bring your troops into charge range.

Power swords are not ideal. Assuming we're talking about Vanguard so you're effectively WS3 S4 I3. How many space marine players do you know who bother with power swords at WS4 S4 I4? Not any of the good ones. The taser is cheaper and is not much weaker against marines.

3 power sword attacks, 50% hit rate, 50% wound rate = 0.75 wounds
3 taser goad attacks, 50% hit rate, 83.33% wound rate, 33% failed saves = 0.41 wounds.

If one of those taser hits rolls a 6, you're looking at 0.96 wounds.

If you're talking max damage potential, a power sword will maximum kill 3 models. A taser goad will kill 9.

Now if we could take power axes, then hell yes I'd take some, but otherwise the Alpha power swords are just cool bits in my bits box I intend to use for my 30k Marines.

Math hammer is all well and good but you aren't taking Doctrina Imperatives into account, nor the toughness reduction from Vanguard's cancer armor (unless that's what you meant by S4). These two things make the power sword worth it IMO as hitting on 4s or 3s depending on the doctrina, wounding on 4s, and ignoring armor is waaaay better than the same but wounding on 3s and giving the marine an armor save. Also, you're forgetting that in the War Convocation, this gak is free man. Digital weapons, invuln save, 2 wounds, and a power sword + pistol giving your alpha 3 attacks? These guys are better than Marine sergeants by far not even taking into account the 6+ FNP, Doctrinas, and other special rules. The power sword is absolutely worth it.

Has anyone ever tried pairing that cadian baneblade formation with admech? I would be interested if you can or not, as I would love to run a big arse tank with my admec.

The formation is for 3 superheavies. That will be a very large battle.

I doubt it would be much more than 3500?

I dont know Baneblade pts off the top of my head, but you can easily run a decent Convoction at 1500, and I cant see the three Baneblades being more than 2000

Baneblades are 525 stock. So it would still be a pretty big game.

Isn't there a formation that is only one baneblade as an auxillary formation from montka? I could have sworn there was one. At any rate I didnt mean the three baneblade one

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Isn't there a formation that is only one baneblade as an auxillary formation from montka? I could have sworn there was one. At any rate I didnt mean the three baneblade one

It's not a formation.

It's an auxiliary slot where you get to take a Baneblade chassis per slot OR you can take the triple Baneblade chassis+Techpriest formation.

Just got back into 7th edition, how well does admech work with space wolves? I feel that destroyers and robots are a good replacement for long fangs, and wolfguard drop-pods can apply some frontline pressure to keep the destroyers safe for 2+ turns, but I'd also like some Icarus Onagers to ruin flyers. I'd like to be competitive with my lists but I don't think I'll be getting a Knight in the foreseeable future.

Ive been debating this extensively lately. I think SW bring a quick melee aspect to AdMech, but AdMech doesnt need help in the form of shooty troops. I think the best compliment to AdMech from SW is a CotgW detachment...Thunderwolf HQ Joins some TWC and 2 units of wulfen...

But to add AdMech to existing SW that is different....what do you have? What are you looking for?

 Tenzilla wrote:
Ive been debating this extensively lately. I think SW bring a quick melee aspect to AdMech, but AdMech doesnt need help in the form of shooty troops. I think the best compliment to AdMech from SW is a CotgW detachment...Thunderwolf HQ Joins some TWC and 2 units of wulfen...

But to add AdMech to existing SW that is different....what do you have? What are you looking for?

I mostly played throughout 5th edition and early 6th edition, so lots of grey hunters, combi-weapon wolf guards, drop-pods, and long fangs, no thunderwolves or fliers. I'm basically transitioning into an Admech army and using them as space wolves allies in the meantime, I'd like to keep my current playstyle of alpha strike while tossing some Admech sustainability in there, with wolf guard combi-weapons destroying/crippling high priority targets and the Admech's superior firepower cleaning up the rest. Obviously things are never that simple so I'm still scheming.

Well Ad Mech does alpha strike extrememly well.
They dont have melta but a 10 man squad of Skitarii Vanguard(Or rangers for a few more points) can have three 24" rapidfire haywire guns with a pistol on the Alpha..making them much more reliable to pop tanks than wolfguard. Thats all for 155 pts too so usually much cheaper as well.

OR those same troops could have 3 Plasma Calivers which is 9(Assault 3) 18" plasma shots that can really put a hurt on most things. This is expensive though...30 pts a gun. And it is very easy to get reolls to avoid getting hot...2 times with Doctrines boosting your BS to 6&7 for 2 turns, by making your alpha the warlord gives the unit PE or by running the dominus maniple formation. On top of a 4+/6+++ So they are surprisingly survivable for plasma.

You can use your drop pods for them and get them where you need them to be, this is a very common tactic, especially with SW because on of their formations is one of the cheapest way to get access to the drop pods for your skitarii.(Cant remember the name of it atm, I believe it is from the Champions of Fenris book)

As far as Cult Mech, nothing beats Kataphron Destroyers....30" 6 Shot grav cannon. Come is squads of 3. BS 3 so that on average 9 grav hits a turn. for 165 pts...T5 2W models...not as duarable as they sound...especially when they are the primary target of every enemy. Putting them in pods also helps tremendously.

These help for the alpha strike...and there are plenty of other great options without me going through all the models in each codex.

The problem I see for you, is you dont have all the new toys that really set SW apart from regular marines, and now those type of SWs are inferior due to the lack of grav weapons/ centurions/TFCs/Skyhammer/Inferior Dreads/etc.

Your infantry really fills the same roll as Skitarii infantry, while being more durable but more expensive. So it kinda feels like you would be replacing shooty footsloggers/drop pods with cheaper shooty footsloggers. If I were you I might just grab some wulfen and TWC to change up what I already have. And maybe get a Skitarii start collecting box to bring along side it after that.

 ultimentra wrote:

Math hammer is all well and good but you aren't taking Doctrina Imperatives into account, nor the toughness reduction from Vanguard's cancer armor (unless that's what you meant by S4). These two things make the power sword worth it IMO as hitting on 4s or 3s depending on the doctrina, wounding on 4s, and ignoring armor is waaaay better than the same but wounding on 3s and giving the marine an armor save. Also, you're forgetting that in the War Convocation, this gak is free man. Digital weapons, invuln save, 2 wounds, and a power sword + pistol giving your alpha 3 attacks? These guys are better than Marine sergeants by far not even taking into account the 6+ FNP, Doctrinas, and other special rules. The power sword is absolutely worth it.

If it's all well and good, you should probably pay attention to it, hence S4 power swords or tasers wounding on 2+. I took everything into account. Doctrinas are irrelevant because they benefit both weapons equally. Even when free, I will always take the taser over the power sword.

And honestly, there is an argument for the power sword in convocation, but it's not the one you think. Since they can benefit from canticles, you could have a turn where they are S6 (and marines will be at T3, so you have an insta-death power sword for marines). However, even then that canticle will be used after Shroudpsalm or Omniscience (which is 3 turns in convocation). And after you use all that, if you find yourself in combat, Electromancer or Remorseless Fist might still be a better choice than Machine Might.

I didn't feel like making a model that would only truly be useful in one type of formation, on one turn of the game, maybe. Hence, taser/pistol, or no weapon upgrades at all as far as I'm concerned. For rangers, it's no weapon upgrades at all, period.

HandofMars wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:

Math hammer is all well and good but you aren't taking Doctrina Imperatives into account, nor the toughness reduction from Vanguard's cancer armor (unless that's what you meant by S4). These two things make the power sword worth it IMO as hitting on 4s or 3s depending on the doctrina, wounding on 4s, and ignoring armor is waaaay better than the same but wounding on 3s and giving the marine an armor save. Also, you're forgetting that in the War Convocation, this gak is free man. Digital weapons, invuln save, 2 wounds, and a power sword + pistol giving your alpha 3 attacks? These guys are better than Marine sergeants by far not even taking into account the 6+ FNP, Doctrinas, and other special rules. The power sword is absolutely worth it.

If it's all well and good, you should probably pay attention to it, hence S4 power swords or tasers wounding on 2+. I took everything into account. Doctrinas are irrelevant because they benefit both weapons equally. Even when free, I will always take the taser over the power sword.

And honestly, there is an argument for the power sword in convocation, but it's not the one you think. Since they can benefit from canticles, you could have a turn where they are S6 (and marines will be at T3, so you have an insta-death power sword for marines). However, even then that canticle will be used after Shroudpsalm or Omniscience (which is 3 turns in convocation). And after you use all that, if you find yourself in combat, Electromancer or Remorseless Fist might still be a better choice than Machine Might.

I didn't feel like making a model that would only truly be useful in one type of formation, on one turn of the game, maybe. Hence, taser/pistol, or no weapon upgrades at all as far as I'm concerned. For rangers, it's no weapon upgrades at all, period.

Not to mention in the Convocation you only get one unit of Vanguard. So only one power sword hitting T3 marines the rest are still base toughness. Mathhammer proves that tasers are far superior to the power swords. That is why everyone runs infiltrators with uzi/taser not carbine/power sword.

Hey guys I'm looking at attempting to start up a Skitarii army and am curious has anyone ever tried a Mechanized Skitarii force? I am thinking about something like the following:

-Skitarii Maniple
-Flesh Tearers Strike Force

x3 Squads of 5 Vanguard
*w/ x2 Arc Rifles, x1 Arc Pistol
-Razorback
*w/ TL-Assault Cannons

-x3 Squads of 10 Vanguard
*w/ x3 Plasma Cavilers
-Rhino

x3 Onagers (separate squads)
*w/ x1 Icarus Array, x2 Neutron Lasers

-x2 Squads of x3 Dragoons

 gmaleron wrote:
Hey guys I'm looking at attempting to start up a Skitarii army and am curious has anyone ever tried a Mechanized Skitarii force? I am thinking about something like the following:

that's not bad. Maybe two special weapons in each Rhino so that both can shoot out the hatch. Then you don't need 10 models.

I've played vanguard in rhinos a few times and yeah they do not suck. Maybe Mix in three drop pods too.

I'd lose the Arc Pistols. Pistols simply aren't worth 15 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd lose the Arc Pistols. Pistols simply aren't worth 15 points.

They are only 10pts. not 15 and I had some points leftover so I figured why not.

I still wouldn't trust a Rhino to get me to that range.

What does the Blood Angels side of things look like?

 gmaleron wrote:
Hey guys I'm looking at attempting to start up a Skitarii army and am curious has anyone ever tried a Mechanized Skitarii force?

OO! OOOOO! pick me!

*ahem*

So I played unbound skitarii more than just skitarii by themselves, and I have to say I loved doing it. They are fairly fast, and are actually better protected in rhinos when they go up the board. An assault cannon or heavy bolter, for example, will shred your front ranks fairly easily... but inside rhinos suddenly they are a lot more protected against ap4 (unless the rhino blows up)

Really though, the only time I really failed for my list was when I faced a knight errant and marines. I found out that unlike other fast vehicles, you can't shoot two occupants out of the top hatch when the rhino goes cruising speed. So, that sucks, but still your guys are fairly protected from harm and can still move around quickly with flat out stuff.

I reccomend giving it a try!

So I'm travelling down to my buddies this weekend for some games. He wants me to try out his ad mech vs his space wolves to see how they do. So I'm tasked with writing a 2500 pt War Convocation list, but I have never used ad mech before so they are a bit overwhelming ruleswise.

Any suggestions would be welcome. He has a large army so unit selection is not a problem. Except for the electro priests. In terms of his army he won't be running super friends, and he only has one unit of thunderwolf cav. So I don't want to spam flesh tearer drop pods as I feel that would be a little mean

MonumentOfRibs wrote:
So I'm travelling down to my buddies this weekend for some games. He wants me to try out his ad mech vs his space wolves to see how they do. So I'm tasked with writing a 2500 pt War Convocation list, but I have never used ad mech before so they are a bit overwhelming ruleswise.

Any suggestions would be welcome. He has a large army so unit selection is not a problem. Except for the electro priests. In terms of his army he won't be running super friends, and he only has one unit of thunderwolf cav. So I don't want to spam flesh tearer drop pods as I feel that would be a little mean

make a quick reference guide.

To bring war Convocation up to 2500 just add more Imperial Knights. They get the Canticles so they're p mean.

I'm sue this or similar has been asked but I'll be honest, 60+ pages in a thread to check is a little daunting...

Has anyone had success (not just played with, but had success) with a Skitarii/Mechanicus army that doesn't have allies or a Knight, or are we too dependent on either?

I'm not playing against tournament hopefuls, much more relaxed and experimental (think the sort of games miniwargaming or guerilla mini games gets on), so I wasn't sure if any Mechanicus guys were in a similar boat with some dos and don'ts or does work vs. doesn't work.

If it helps to add context, I'm having extreme difficulty against high T monsters (wraithlords and the Avatar) and I've been leaning more Skitarii heavy over Cult models.

 Gremore wrote:

If it helps to add context, I'm having extreme difficulty against high T monsters (wraithlords and the Avatar) and I've been leaning more Skitarii heavy over Cult models.

Well, for high T monsters and the like, the Cult models have some good tools to help you. That's where I would start. Kastelans have massed S6 AP3 fire, and the Kataphron destroyers can bring piles of grav shots or plasma blasts. Grav destroyers can and have taken out MCs in one round of shooting.

I run a cult heavy blend of skitarii/mechanicus. I have never used a knight and I do fairly well. My meta is filled with marines and vehicles though, and cult loves those targets. I absolutely think we can be 'casually competitive' without a knight. I know that's all anecdotal but I wanted to share my opinion. I hope it helps.

It really does. I should definitely shift my attention to a better balance, getting the Destroyers and Kastelans in. Anecdotal though it may be, it's a good optimism booster.

Also vanguard cause 2 wounds regardless of toughness on a to wound roll of a 6...Massed vanguard are cheap and dangerous.