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 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

jakejackjake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

epronovost wrote:
I would say Lorgar. He is the only one to have developped another intelectual sphere of interest beside war or weaponsmithing and produce ground braking work in those fields. He was the most politicaly minded of them all and had an actual project of society that would produce fonctional community for the worlds he conquered. He seemed also one of the most articulated. He is one of the few to have a hubris linked to higher knowledge. Lorgar wanted to find Truth.

except that's not true AT ALL. Lorgar was NOT the only Primarch who took an intreast in civil projects. he was not the only one intreasted in community building. everything positive you've just said about Lorgar can be said about Gulliman. except Gulliman didn't NEED religon.

Lorgar didn't need religion. You don't understand the story. He was groomed on Colchis by the Chaos Gods. He KNEW there was more than the emperor said They wanted him to know. He knew and he was right, and when he found out how right he was he hated the knowledge he acquired but also knew the truth is more important than the lies we wish were true.

Lorgar could have easily been the emperor's greatest ally. No other Primarch inspired the adulation he did. There is even a passage where Ultramarines(who hate word bearers) admit to his presence, and Kharn wishes his Primarch was more like that. As a public speak and someone who inspired populations he would have been a major asset in teaching the iterators. His talents were wasted.

I undersand the story perfectly well. the man needed something to belive in. he needed faith. his old faith was broken, so what does he do? immediatly sets across on a trip across the galaxy in search of another god. He needed a god. and yes he had a presence to him. that's the nature of a primarch (news flash BTW the Ultramarines didn't hate the word bearers. they detroyed the perfect city because they where ordered too. there was no malice in their actions. and even Lorgar clues in on that eventually) as for Kharn wishing his primarch was more like that well.. Kharn's primarch was Angron. whom was, let's be honest here, thanks to the nails, kind of a failure of a primarch.

Angron is arguably the perfect primarch, a weapon to pointed at the enemy and set loose, blunt weapon but did exactly what you wanted... wiped out civilizations.

Lorgar did not want a GOD to believe in, he wanted something to believe in, something bigger than himself to follow, and ideal that he could get behind, so first he chose the emp, as he was the biggest thing to believe in, and by extension the imperial truth, thus when he was shunned he chose the next biggest thing to believe in, and it happened to be the chaos gods, just as planned.

No, he needed a GOD. rather then actually listen to the Imperial truth and get behind the actual ideals of it, he put the emperor on a pedestal and WORSHIPPED him

 Formosa wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron was the perfect Primarch for one situation which you didn't even want most of the time. He was pretty much a failure. Any of the Primarchs could wipe out civilisations if required, but they could also wage wars in hundreds of other ways.

True, but they had a hundred different things pulling at them too, when it got to the nitty gritty, angron and the world eaters would fight until they were dead or the enemy was, ammo, numbers, equipment would not matter, they would just go and ... die haha.

I admit bias of course

Also he wasn't a failure, that implies the poor sod had a chance to begin with, he never failed, he never got a chance to succeed, that isn't failure, that's slavery.

I don't think I should get into another discussion about Angron haha, but yeah I do like Angron and it's obviously understandable why he was the way he was, but he definitely was the worst general of the Primarchs in my opinion, and definitely wasn't perfect, he was very single faceted in how he waged war and was just a failure (but not down to him).

that's a corruption though, it happened that he saw visions of the emp having been raised on a planet that taught religious dogma above all, and thus the only way his human (super) mind could interpret it was through the teachings he had received, and thus thinks of the emp as a god, not truly understanding what the emp was, even after meeting the chap and learning what a psyker was and all that, because he wanted to believe, he wanted hope.

So his driving force of hope and betterment of the human race was corrupted by the chaos gods sending him to colchis.

that's my take on it anyway.

It doesn't really matter whether Lorgar needed a God or not, he needed something to direct his faith at. A God, or just any kind of higher power, it's just semantics really isn't it? And I like the way Lorgar put it, the Emperor was 'a god in all but name'.

 Formosa wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
You all know Perturabo's geneseed was stated to be the only one that increases intelligence right?

Really? That's a gem of interesting. Curious, but where could I find this? I enjoy me some Pert lore.

There isn't that I'm aware of, and i've read it all, 2nd ed, index astartes and all the hh series to date, however gene seed alone does increase any intelligence already possessed, so a genius would become a super genius ala alexus polux

Geneseed does no such thing.

Geneseed prevents the body from rejecting the other implants, and takes cultures of the other implants to allow them to be grown into full implants after the progenoid is extracted.

That is all it does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
* Perhaps 'prepares the body to accept the other implants' would be a better way of saying it.

I would say that each had an amazingly high level of intellect due to the way that the Emperor created them. Ones like Magnus and Perturabo are obvious candidates because we actually have information on their passtimes. We also know from Angel Exterminatus that Fulgrim was no slouch, rewriting works that Perturabo had studied. I would imagine that Sanguinius, having the same appreciation for the arts, could possibly be one. Even Russ has been attributed to writing works and redesigning Regicide.

Some we don't know enough about to place.

 Formosa wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Angron was the perfect Primarch for one situation which you didn't even want most of the time. He was pretty much a failure. Any of the Primarchs could wipe out civilisations if required, but they could also wage wars in hundreds of other ways.

True, but they had a hundred different things pulling at them too, when it got to the nitty gritty, angron and the world eaters would fight until they were dead or the enemy was, ammo, numbers, equipment would not matter, they would just go and ... die haha.

I admit bias of course

Also he wasn't a failure, that implies the poor sod had a chance to begin with, he never failed, he never got a chance to succeed, that isn't failure, that's slavery.

Chalking up Angron's failure to the Nails works well enough, I suppose. The brutal but extremely fraternal relationship of the Warhounds paints a picture of a Primarch who could have been one of the greatest Loyalist Primarchs ever if his legion shared even half of his own disposition pre-implants.

Primarchs were created to help expand the imperium and unite humanity through the great crusade. By turning traitor they destroyed the purpose of their creation, the entire meaning of being a primarch. No primarch who turned traitor can therefore be described as a 'perfect primarch'. In fact - quite the opposite!

 Vector Strike wrote:

Shidank wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

lion el'johnson
magnus

the Lion.
Easily the most intelligent.

I agree. The Lion was the first (among Primarchs) to understand the need to use Librarians against daemons.

Lion: Pertuabo, Horus has turned on us all. He is a traitor and will be defeated. Do you know what this means?

Peturabo: .....

Lion: It means he won't be warmaster anymore!

Peturabo: Oh, right. I mean, OF COURSE he will fail.

Lion: Totally, I just stole the siege engines he needs to storm the imperial palace.

Peturabo: Dope man. So who will be the next warmaster you think?

Lion: Well I dont mean to toot my own horn but, I am the only real choice.

Peturabo: Oh, really. I dont know man. You who is really WarMastery?

Lion: Who Who Who?

Peturabo: Russ.

Lion: NOOOO anyone but him. I hate him.

Peturabo: I tell you what. Why dont you give me those siege engines you stole from the forge world and for that ill support your claim to warmaster after we *easily* defeat Horus.

Lion: Oh that is so nice of you. Sure ill give you the siege engines that are really good at storming large fortresses. Fortresses like Dorn's defenses on Terra.

Peturabo:You know me, I love siege engines and uhh they will be safer with me. Certainly wouldnt want to give them to Dorn, he is clearly a Russ guy.

Lion: I'm so lucky to have a friend like you!
Lion: Next Im gonna go talk to Kurze. He is the linchpin to becoming Warmaster. If I can get him on my side Ill surely win
Peturabo: Sure thing man.

 Exergy wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

Shidank wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

lion el'johnson
magnus

the Lion.
Easily the most intelligent.

I agree. The Lion was the first (among Primarchs) to understand the need to use Librarians against daemons.

Lion: Pertuabo, Horus has turned on us all. He is a traitor and will be defeated. Do you know what this means?

Peturabo: .....

Lion: It means he won't be warmaster anymore!

Peturabo: Oh, right. I mean, OF COURSE he will fail.

Lion: Totally, I just stole the siege engines he needs to storm the imperial palace.

Peturabo: Dope man. So who will be the next warmaster you think?

Lion: Well I dont mean to toot my own horn but, I am the only real choice.

Peturabo: Oh, really. I dont know man. You who is really WarMastery?

Lion: Who Who Who?

Peturabo: Russ.

Lion: NOOOO anyone but him. I hate him.

Peturabo: I tell you what. Why dont you give me those siege engines you stole from the forge world and for that ill support your claim to warmaster after we *easily* defeat Horus.

Lion: Oh that is so nice of you. Sure ill give you the siege engines that are really good at storming large fortresses. Fortresses like Dorn's defenses on Terra.

Peturabo:You know me, I love siege engines and uhh they will be safer with me. Certainly wouldnt want to give them to Dorn, he is clearly a Russ guy.

Lion: I'm so lucky to have a friend like you!
Lion: Next Im gonna go talk to Kurze. He is the linchpin to becoming Warmaster. If I can get him on my side Ill surely win
Peturabo: Sure thing man.

So, just in case no one told you... The Lion played both sides during the war and seemed like he was waiting to see who would win. He and Pert respected one another(to a degree) and so the Lion used him to keep relations with the traitors open. He was aware of the traitors and put enough together to assume the Iron Warriors wouldn't stay loyal if given a choice. The scenario you chose is actually one of the examples of the Lion's guile and is one of the things the Dark Angels keep secret as hell. There's a reason they weren't/aren't easily trusted.

Except the Lion was staunchly loyalist, to such a point that nothing Daemons offered him could sway him, as Lion El'Johnson desired nothing other then to serve his father. Also considering that nobody even knew the Iron Warriors were traitor as the Drop Site massacre hadn't happened yet. It's funny how people bring that up, yet completely forget that neither the Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists even knew that the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion had turned traitor.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Lion was staunchly loyalist, to such a point that nothing Daemons offered him could sway him, as Lion El'Johnson desired nothing other then to serve his father. Also considering that nobody even knew the Iron Warriors were traitor as the Drop Site massacre hadn't happened yet. It's funny how people bring that up, yet completely forget that neither the Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists even knew that the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion had turned traitor.

You're actually supporting me here. The Lion desired nothing at all. He served his father because he saw no reason not to. The Lion was a creature of the forests of Caliban. Self preservation was at the top of his list right next to being the strongest predator out there. If he could ever engineer a way for his competition(as he would have seen it) to be weakened by a civil war, why wouldn't he let it happen? Of course, we know now that all of his double-dealing and waiting out the siege of Terra ended up with a karmic backlog that ended up nearly destroying his legion.

As the Lion was one of the three smartest Primarchs, he knew Horus had turned by this point, and he knew Perturabo's disposition as the two were familiar and actually respected one another.

You can't spin this as the Lion is the framed secret hero of the Imperium. We like his double-dealing a$$ the way it is. The literature tells us this is how he was. If you want him another way, this may not be the thread to discuss it.

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Lion was staunchly loyalist, to such a point that nothing Daemons offered him could sway him, as Lion El'Johnson desired nothing other then to serve his father. Also considering that nobody even knew the Iron Warriors were traitor as the Drop Site massacre hadn't happened yet. It's funny how people bring that up, yet completely forget that neither the Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists even knew that the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion had turned traitor.

You're actually supporting me here. The Lion desired nothing at all. He served his father because he saw no reason not to. The Lion was a creature of the forests of Caliban. Self preservation was at the top of his list right next to being the strongest predator out there. If he could ever engineer a way for his competition(as he would have seen it) to be weakened by a civil war, why wouldn't he let it happen? Of course, we know now that all of his double-dealing and waiting out the siege of Terra ended up with a karmic backlog that ended up nearly destroying his legion.

As the Lion was one of the three smartest Primarchs, he knew Horus had turned by this point, and he knew Perturabo's disposition as the two were familiar and actually respected one another.

You can't spin this as the Lion is the framed secret hero of the Imperium. We like his double-dealing a$$ the way it is. The literature tells us this is how he was. If you want him another way, this may not be the thread to discuss it.

Except nothing in the books supports him being a potential turncoat at all. Were he to desire survival, becoming a Daemon Prince would be his single greatest desire given its true immortality. The Dark Angels HH book killed any idea of the Dark Angels potentially being actual secret traitors and the fallen being the true loyalists thanks to well, the HH being the HH.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Shidank wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
There are only really 3/4 that could be considered well and above the others in intelligence.

Peturabo
lion el'johnson
magnus
and possibly guiliman.

Pert, Magnus, the Lion.

Easily the most intelligent.

I agree. The Lion was the first (among Primarchs) to understand the need to use Librarians against daemons.

the evidance suggests each Legion clued into this quickly individually as soon as they engaged deamons

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Lion was staunchly loyalist, to such a point that nothing Daemons offered him could sway him, as Lion El'Johnson desired nothing other then to serve his father. Also considering that nobody even knew the Iron Warriors were traitor as the Drop Site massacre hadn't happened yet. It's funny how people bring that up, yet completely forget that neither the Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists even knew that the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion had turned traitor.

You're actually supporting me here. The Lion desired nothing at all. He served his father because he saw no reason not to. The Lion was a creature of the forests of Caliban. Self preservation was at the top of his list right next to being the strongest predator out there. If he could ever engineer a way for his competition(as he would have seen it) to be weakened by a civil war, why wouldn't he let it happen? Of course, we know now that all of his double-dealing and waiting out the siege of Terra ended up with a karmic backlog that ended up nearly destroying his legion.

As the Lion was one of the three smartest Primarchs, he knew Horus had turned by this point, and he knew Perturabo's disposition as the two were familiar and actually respected one another.

You can't spin this as the Lion is the framed secret hero of the Imperium. We like his double-dealing a$$ the way it is. The literature tells us this is how he was. If you want him another way, this may not be the thread to discuss it.

Except nothing in the books supports him being a potential turncoat at all. Were he to desire survival, becoming a Daemon Prince would be his single greatest desire given its true immortality. The Dark Angels HH book killed any idea of the Dark Angels potentially being actual secret traitors and the fallen being the true loyalists thanks to well, the HH being the HH.

The books are where the Lion's untrustworthy ways are revealed. How else would we be so familiar with them?

1. The Emperor's arrival was feared by the knights who thought their ways would be ground away by industry that the Lion would allow. They knew he would simply move forward with progress. These were the men who knew him best who decided trying to assassinate the Emperor was their best option.
2. The Lion's bribe towards Pert worked on a number of levels that aren't subtle to the reader. Should Pert join with the traitors, he would have a foot in the door. The Lion would see the Heresy ending only with a vacancy for Warmaster. What better predator? What greater defense than singular control of the Imperium's might? It's logic, not ambition.
3. The Lion viewed corruption by Chaos as a weakness. He trusted his own power above all else. Why would he let himself be a plaything when he could otherwise control his own destiny?
4. Traitors? No. Loyalists? There's the grey area. The Lion moved in such ways as to retain the bulk of his forces while feeling out where his brothers stood. He ignored edicts against the librarius and xenos technology once news of the Heresy reached him and employing such things were the best route for staying mobile and strong. The scouring against the Night Lords worked for the Lion in two ways. It showed the loyal fervor of his legion despite their convenient absence from Terra and allowed him to put to the sword the legion that(frankly) annoyed him the most.
5. As referenced in the previous point, he denied extremely valuable technology to both sides to better equip his own legion.

He is a Primarch. He isn't inherently evil. He places himself(and good sense) above all others(perhaps even the Emperor). Of all the Primarchs, he is perhaps the most inhuman in that he could never form a genuine bond with any mortal save Luther(and we saw how well that worked out). If anything, you may have fallen for the rather well-written account of his encounters in the Horus Heresy where he plays the part of a sociopath, saying the right things where needed. I like this character more than most others in 40k and enjoy a figure who literally isn't dragged down by fanaticism existing in this universe.


P.S. Let's not forget the Watchers in the Dark. The Lion trusted their advice.

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Shidank wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Except the Lion was staunchly loyalist, to such a point that nothing Daemons offered him could sway him, as Lion El'Johnson desired nothing other then to serve his father. Also considering that nobody even knew the Iron Warriors were traitor as the Drop Site massacre hadn't happened yet. It's funny how people bring that up, yet completely forget that neither the Salamanders, Iron Hands, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Raven Guard, White Scars, Blood Angels, and Imperial Fists even knew that the Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion had turned traitor.

You're actually supporting me here. The Lion desired nothing at all. He served his father because he saw no reason not to. The Lion was a creature of the forests of Caliban. Self preservation was at the top of his list right next to being the strongest predator out there. If he could ever engineer a way for his competition(as he would have seen it) to be weakened by a civil war, why wouldn't he let it happen? Of course, we know now that all of his double-dealing and waiting out the siege of Terra ended up with a karmic backlog that ended up nearly destroying his legion.

As the Lion was one of the three smartest Primarchs, he knew Horus had turned by this point, and he knew Perturabo's disposition as the two were familiar and actually respected one another.

You can't spin this as the Lion is the framed secret hero of the Imperium. We like his double-dealing a$$ the way it is. The literature tells us this is how he was. If you want him another way, this may not be the thread to discuss it.

Except nothing in the books supports him being a potential turncoat at all. Were he to desire survival, becoming a Daemon Prince would be his single greatest desire given its true immortality. The Dark Angels HH book killed any idea of the Dark Angels potentially being actual secret traitors and the fallen being the true loyalists thanks to well, the HH being the HH.

The books are where the Lion's untrustworthy ways are revealed. How else would we be so familiar with them?

1. The Emperor's arrival was feared by the knights who thought their ways would be ground away by industry that the Lion would allow. They knew he would simply move forward with progress. These were the men who knew him best who decided trying to assassinate the Emperor was their best option.
2. The Lion's bribe towards Pert worked on a number of levels that aren't subtle to the reader. Should Pert join with the traitors, he would have a foot in the door. The Lion would see the Heresy ending only with a vacancy for Warmaster. What better predator? What greater defense than singular control of the Imperium's might? It's logic, not ambition.
3. The Lion viewed corruption by Chaos as a weakness. He trusted his own power above all else. Why would he let himself be a plaything when he could otherwise control his own destiny?
4. Traitors? No. Loyalists? There's the grey area. The Lion moved in such ways as to retain the bulk of his forces while feeling out where his brothers stood. He ignored edicts against the librarius and xenos technology once news of the Heresy reached him and employing such things were the best route for staying mobile and strong. The scouring against the Night Lords worked for the Lion in two ways. It showed the loyal fervor of his legion despite their convenient absence from Terra and allowed him to put to the sword the legion that(frankly) annoyed him the most.
5. As referenced in the previous point, he denied extremely valuable technology to both sides to better equip his own legion.

He is a Primarch. He isn't inherently evil. He places himself(and good sense) above all others(perhaps even the Emperor). Of all the Primarchs, he is perhaps the most inhuman in that he could never form a genuine bond with any mortal save Luther(and we saw how well that worked out). If anything, you may have fallen for the rather well-written account of his encounters in the Horus Heresy where he plays the part of a sociopath, saying the right things where needed. I like this character more than most others in 40k and enjoy a figure who literally isn't dragged down by fanaticism existing in this universe.


P.S. Let's not forget the Watchers in the Dark. The Lion trusted their advice.

Sorry, the books got rid of all the 'Lion was waiting to see who won'. He's a staunch loyalist, no double dealing whatsoever.
When Lion gives the siege weapons to Perturabo, their is dialogue where Lion specifically states that they are for support to become Warmaster.
Nobody 'knew' Lion. He has a discussion with Zahariel where he reminisces on the nature of the chaos beasts, and the reader gets the impression he's talking about himself.
The actions of the Knights of the Order have nothing to do with Lion. Besides which, many were opposed to Lion before the Emperor came, due to the Order's practises and the amalgamation of the knightly orders.
Yes, Lion viewed Chaos as a weakness. He is also loyal only to the Emperor. He says that only the Emperor has the right to rule. The guy would never accept following orders from one of the other Primarchs.
In regards to keeping tech from both sides, how so? the engine only speeds warp travel, and makes it more accurate, it doesn't make the impossible possible. He also wanted /needed to crush the Night Lords, both for personal reasons, and tactically.
He ignored the edicts against librarians under the most extreme duress, and said that all the librarians would be punished. As to xenon tech, what are you talking about? The warp engine was sanctioned by the Imperium.

There is no way the Lion was a fence sitter. His most well known quote basically says so.
'Loyalty is its own reward'.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

'Loyalty is its own reward'.

Pretty much this. Lion was one of the few primarchs that wasn't a whiny child with the whole "omg why doesnt daddy love me???!/11!?1" He recognized what he was made for, did his job, did it better then pretty much any other primarch (found 11th and still the second most planets conquered in the crusade), and generally stayed above petty politics. Hell, he was ready to invade Macragge when he found out Rowboat was starting a new empire. Dude is as loyal as could be. And super smart.

Sly Marbo. Also known as Omegon, Also known as the Emperor/Cypher.

Where did the idea that the Lion was just waiting to join the winning side actually come from? Because I've never really got that impression.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Where did the idea that the Lion was just waiting to join the winning side actually come from? Because I've never really got that impression.

Angels of Darkness, which I have always thought was pretty silly since it's an account from a Fallen Angel.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Where did the idea that the Lion was just waiting to join the winning side actually come from? Because I've never really got that impression.

Before the HH series hit and they started changing history, it was an apocryphal suspicion established through their codex and a terrible novel.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:


Sorry, the books got rid of all the 'Lion was waiting to see who won'. He's a staunch loyalist, no double dealing whatsoever.
When Lion gives the siege weapons to Perturabo, their is dialogue where Lion specifically states that they are for support to become Warmaster.
Nobody 'knew' Lion. He has a discussion with Zahariel where he reminisces on the nature of the chaos beasts, and the reader gets the impression he's talking about himself.
The actions of the Knights of the Order have nothing to do with Lion. Besides which, many were opposed to Lion before the Emperor came, due to the Order's practises and the amalgamation of the knightly orders.
Yes, Lion viewed Chaos as a weakness. He is also loyal only to the Emperor. He says that only the Emperor has the right to rule. The guy would never accept following orders from one of the other Primarchs.
In regards to keeping tech from both sides, how so? the engine only speeds warp travel, and makes it more accurate, it doesn't make the impossible possible. He also wanted /needed to crush the Night Lords, both for personal reasons, and tactically.
He ignored the edicts against librarians under the most extreme duress, and said that all the librarians would be punished. As to xenon tech, what are you talking about? The warp engine was sanctioned by the Imperium.

There is no way the Lion was a fence sitter. His most well known quote basically says so.
'Loyalty is its own reward'.

This may be your impression, but it seems to me that they've only made the argument more viable, not quashed it entirely.

You didn't disagree with me on the siege weapons. You didn't disagree on his reclusive nature. You didn't disagree on the Knights. You agreed on chaos. You contradicted yourself regarding the tech by saying how useful it was and then saying it was useless and ignore that it was built on xenos designs under Imperial research.

So, aside from the idea that he wasn't on the fence, you and I seem to agree on all accounts. Thanks for the support.