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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oh! And Hawking Radiation escapes the event horizon of black holes, an electron dropping back to its normal valence band will spawn a photon, the act of observing a quantum event will influence the event (which is why Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics), and thank you for admitting that a Human-Eldar hybrid is unlikely rather than your previous position that it was impossible. I know that last point was either a big step or a mis-step, but seeing you write it gave me a warm and fuzzy!

SJ

He said PROTON note PHOTON, so I have no idea why you mentioned electrons and photons

Could you at lest admit that maybe, nastase is one of the legends the black library fella mentioned? That maybe that story has been distorted etc and is no longer right? A lot of the story surrounding him has changed, to the point he has been reconnect out to most people. Given all the changes that have occurred since then, are you certain he actually existed, and wasn't some sort of early 40k myth?

 statu wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Oh! And Hawking Radiation escapes the event horizon of black holes, an electron dropping back to its normal valence band will spawn a photon, the act of observing a quantum event will influence the event (which is why Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics), and thank you for admitting that a Human-Eldar hybrid is unlikely rather than your previous position that it was impossible. I know that last point was either a big step or a mis-step, but seeing you write it gave me a warm and fuzzy!

SJ

He said PROTON note PHOTON, so I have no idea why you mentioned electrons and photons

Could you at lest admit that maybe, nastase is one of the legends the black library fella mentioned? That maybe that story has been distorted etc and is no longer right? A lot of the story surrounding him has changed, to the point he has been reconnect out to most people. Given all the changes that have occurred since then, are you certain he actually existed, and wasn't some sort of early 40k myth?

You seriously want me to admit that a character GW created, published, made art work for, displayed a model for, never actually existed? Is that your argument now? I accept your concession.

As to protons and photons, I could get into the formation of protons, anti-protons, electrons, and anti-electrons, as well as go off on a tangent discussing why our universe does not seem to want the produce the anti-spin variants in equal proportion, which may have to do with the creation of time, but I've already won the debate. Thanks for participating!

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Spoiler:

You just wrote a wall of "it's not blue, it's cerulean, and since it's cerulean, it can't be blue".

The first thing of note is that you are trying to disprove the existence in a character with a printed biography in a 40k source book, art work, and a model. Effectively, you are saying the Starue of Liberty does not exist because the plaque at the statue's base say's it's name is the Statue of Liberty Enlightening the World. An interesting argument, to be sure.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand that you are attempting to demonstrate the the current version of 40k fluff retcons it out of existence Chief Librarian Astropath Illiyan Nastase, Ultramarine Chief of Macragge's Interstellar Communications Link, because the idea that a child of a Human mother and Eldar father flyers in the face of all you hold dear when it comes to the science of this fantasy universe. I however find it fascinating that in order for such a character to exist, Humans and Eldar must come from a common ancestry, which makes Eldar a branch of Hominid.

Our approaches are diametrically opposed, because while I note that GW considers Nastase's existence valid, you do not. Thankfully, you aren't GW or BL.

As to you other points, have you read any of the Horus Heresy novels? You know, the ones that have adults being inducted into the Legions? Not only did the Word Bearers and the Dark Angels do it, which included some heavy use of cybernetics, but the Space Wolves inducted two adult Fenrisian warriors into their Legion, one of which became a full Astartes without need of cyber augmentation, while the other turned into a Thunderwolf!

I'd love to see how you reconcile that.

Oh! And Hawking Radiation escapes the event horizon of black holes, an electron dropping back to its normal valence band will spawn a photon, the act of observing a quantum event will influence the event (which is why Einstein hated Quantum Mechanics), and thank you for admitting that a Human-Eldar hybrid is unlikely rather than your previous position that it was impossible. I know that last point was either a big step or a mis-step, but seeing you write it gave me a warm and fuzzy!

SJ

Right, you've got a lot wrong here so let's get right to it. I'm not trying to disprove the existence of a mention of the character in a sourcebook, I have demonstrated that his existence is no longer consistent with the current fiction and that he has therefore been retconned out. As has been repeatedly explained to you, at great length, by several very patient people, appearing in a 40k sourcebook doesn't make something "true" or "canon", it just means that it exists as a story or legend within the universe. He doesn't have a model produced by GW and never has. Space marines must be adolescents to receive their implants: evidence here among many other places. Electrons still can't decay into protons, that's not how quantum chromodynamics works. The idea of an "observer effect" in quantum mechanics is a non-scientific misunderstanding of the (in my view discredited) Copenhagen interpretation. Hawking radiation doesn't involve anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from the inside, virtual particle pairs are created near the event horizon, one falls in, the other flies away, and the black hole absorbs negative energy. If you understood differential geometry, quantum electrodynamics, or general relativity, you would know that, but this is the entire problem: you're trying to create arguments that are so far beyond your understanding that you can't see why they don't make sense.

You asked for a link to some evidence that you were wrong. I provided it. I gave you six points, you disagreed with them, and I showed that you were wrong. I don't know what more to say. You're wrong. You've been repeatedly proven wrong. You're playing the "It is raining, but I do not believe that it is raining" game. The existence of this character is inconsistent with other parts of the fiction, so one or the other has to be true, but both cannot be. We can keep Nastase and throw away all the lore since 2nd edition, or we can accept that he's been retconned out.

You still don't understand biology, so you (and only you, it seems) don't realize that you're not making any sense. I'm not an expert in biology or taxonomy, I am a physicist, but I know enough to know that phyla, families, geni, and species are classified according to the similarity of their genes, with similarity of appearance used only in cases where genetic information isn't available, such as fossils. By definition, eldar and humans are not the same species, same genus, same phylum, or same anything else. Eldar cannot be hominids, by the definition of what a hominid is. I'm sorry that you would rather protect your ego than actually learn something about biology, but your incorrect beliefs cannot change reality. This part has nothing to do with 40k, this is just how genetics works and how species are defined. If an alien species were discovered with 20 base-pairs and a quintuple helix, it could not, by definition, be a hominid, a primate, a mammal, or anything else related.

Remember, humans share a common ancestor with all life on earth. We share about 50% or our DNA with bananas. We are much more similar to bananas than we would be to a quintuple-helix, 20 base-pair alien. It's much more likely for a human and a banana to produce offspring than for a human and an eldar. It's about as likely as a human-eldar hybrid spontaneously assembling itself out of random proteins. If you want to call that "not impossible" then that is only because you simply don't understand genetics, thermodynamics, or statistics, unfortunately.

Please cite one instance where GW defined what is canon and what is not. Or, barring that, cite one instance where GW has told us to disregard older fluff. If you can do either, then you have a valid argument. If not, you literally have no argument.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please cite one instance where GW defined what is canon and what is not. Or, barring that, cite one instance where GW has told us to disregard older fluff. If you can do either, then you have a valid argument. If not, you literally have no argument.

SJ

The newer fluff contradicts the older fluff

Also I never asked you to never admit he never existed, what I was suggesting in an apparently vain effort to end this pointless discussion that's just going round and round in circles because you can't seem to be able to understand or admit you are wrong, was that maybe the story existed, maybe even the guy existed, however many elements of it are no longer factual, this relating his story to the level of myth rather than fact

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Risky to bring this into an argument but...

I know it's for YMDC but I think it's starting to apply here.

Edit for the second sentence

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please cite one instance where GW defined what is canon and what is not. Or, barring that, cite one instance where GW has told us to disregard older fluff. If you can do either, then you have a valid argument. If not, you literally have no argument.

SJ

So, you don't know what literally means either? I don't mean to be snide, I'm genuinely asking. Because an argument is a logical demonstration that certain conclusions follow from a premise. The premises are that 1) two mutually contradictory things cannot both be true simultaneously, and 2) that in the event of a contradiction in the fiction, the most recent material is taken as true. From these premises, we argue that the existence of an eldar-human astropath librarian astartes contradicts various more recent statements previously outlined and conclude that he is no longer considered a "current" character. This is, literally, an argument. You may disagree with the premises or deny the inference but you can't accurately claim that the argument doesn't exist.

The quote from Marc Gascoigne on the previous page states explicitly that while everything is official, not everything is true. Everyone else here contends that this character is an example of something that is no longer considered "true". He is relegated to the pile of rumours, legends, and half-truths. This is what is meant by "he does not exist".

The problem with the argument provided to counter my point is that no actual contradict has been put forth. Each point that has been brought up as being in conflict with newer fluff has been demonstrated to not b in conflict.

lit·er·al·ly
ˈlidərəlē,ˈlitrəlē/
adverb
in a literal manner or sense; exactly.
"the driver took it literally when asked to go straight across the traffic circle"
synonyms: exactly, precisely, actually, really, truly; More

Informal
used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.
"I have received literally thousands of letters"

Technically, I was using it informally while still using it as an adverb.

SJ

It has only been demonstrated to not be in conflict because you don't seem to be able to understand that such a conflict exists. It seems to me that to you everything ever put out is true unless it has been explicitly said it is false, even if there are sufficient contradictions to show that it is not necessarily wholly true anymore

 statu wrote:
It has only been demonstrated to not be in conflict because you don't seem to be able to understand that such a conflict exists. It seems to me that to you everything ever put out is true unless it has been explicitly said it is false, even if there are sufficient contradictions to show that it is not necessarily wholly true anymore

Incorrect. My point has only been that nothing can said to be impossible, only improbable. The fact that GW included Human-Eldar hybrids in the setting shows a common origin of the two races. Current fluff versus older fluff has not invalided that one point in the fluff, although it does make it exceedingly rare of an occurance. The attempt to demonstrate a conflict between this bit of RT fluff with the most recent Xenology failed because it does does not disprove the existence of something that exists, it simply shows how rare the occurance is. The attempt to disprove the character's existence in the current continuity fails because GW did not retract the character, nor retcon the character. They actually appear to have either forgotten the character (and created Tigurius to fill the gap), or decided to just not go down that path for now while still supporting the entire body of work.

I happen to agree with the GW and BL policy of supporting all of their fluff equally, calling it lies, propaganda, and misinformation. That way, they can tell epic tales of future mythology without need to retract or redact older publication with newer additions don't fit, and I can boldly state that when you say it can't happen, that it's impossible, or that it's different now, you are in fact in error because it did happen, it was possible, and it nothing changed, we just got a different version form a different source.

SJ

So it's possible nastase is now just a story then?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The problem with the argument provided to counter my point is that no actual contradict has been put forth. Each point that has been brought up as being in conflict with newer fluff has been demonstrated to not b in conflict.

Spoiler:

lit·er·al·ly
ˈlidərəlē,ˈlitrəlē/
adverb
in a literal manner or sense; exactly.
"the driver took it literally when asked to go straight across the traffic circle"
synonyms: exactly, precisely, actually, really, truly; More

Informal
used for emphasis or to express strong feeling while not being literally true.
"I have received literally thousands of letters"

Technically, I was using it informally while still using it as an adverb.

SJ

Definition of literally: Fair enough. Contradictions: yes they have. And you've been given links explaining why. You said astropaths are part of the librarius, so I linked you the ultramarines order of battle for this period of 40k "history", showing that they are not. Therefore his title is a contradiction. That's just one example, but the others all still hold as well.

If you don't understand that Xenology makes a human-eldar hybrid impossible, that is because you don't understand genetics, thermodynamics, or what constitutes a possible thing. Human-eldar hybrids produced by biological reproduction are not possible. They are not "rare", they are impossible. Even by the strictest, most literal definition of "impossible" as "excluded from occurring by a law of the universe", this is impossible. Again, I'm unhappy for you that your grasp of science isn't sufficient to understand this point, but that's your business. As long as nobody reading your posts comes away misunderstanding science it's fairly harmless, so I try to point out why you're wrong. I don't think you'll change your mind, I just want everyone else to know how things actually work, because you're badly misrepresenting both thermodynamics and statistics as well as biology and genetics.

As to the lore status of the Nastase character, dude, if you think it's the coolest thing ever and you want to have him in your army or universe, I'm not going to try to stop you. Have fun. You're not wrong - 40k is a make-believe world, and it is what you want to make it. The rest of us think he's inconsistent with the lore, for the many, many reasons enumerated over the last four or five pages of forum posts. But we're content to resolve this by saying "retcon" or, if you prefer, "he was just a story someone made up one time, probably while drunk, and shortly before being executed for heresy over it". If you like him and think he's awesome, go nuts. The rest of us don't like him and think he's a poor idea for a character that's inconsistent with the current fiction, so we accept that he doesn't exist.

 statu wrote:
So it's possible nastase is now just a story then?

It's all a story, or did you think it's real? Your Xenology is just as much fiction as Nastase, both just as valid, and neither contradicting the other.

The wall of text in the post above has already been addressed, no need for me to repeat what's already been repeated.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
My proof is easy to find (see the above post). Still waiting on counter evidence (which does not exist).

On the human-fungi hybrid, you must not be following recent science news. We can and have successfully spliced plant and insect DNA with mammal DNA, and can use viruses as a delivery method for genetic repair. Then there's the fact the unless you come from Subsaharan Africa, 1-3% of your DNA is Neanderthal, which last I check was a non-Human cousin to modern day Humans we co-existed with between 45,000 and 50,000 years ago.

So, keep moving that goal post.

SJ

Neanderthal did in fact breed with Homo sapiens. Other than that, not a single thing you mentioned is anything like a hybrid, evidence a hybrid could work, or even in the same ball park as hybridization through breeding. DNA is a collection of tools designed to do certain things. Putting insect DNA into a mammal is akin to taking a screw from a classic Cadillac and using it inside a new computer. You have not made a Cadillac/computer hybrid.

What breeding is doing is taking a blueprint and combining it with another blueprint. You can use a fish tool or insect tool in a mammal blueprint sometimes, but if you try to cross the blueprints the whole thing will be a jumbled disaster that cannot work. It is impossible to crossbreed a fish and a man. Within the same genus (homo sapien with Neanderthal, Tigers with lions, etc.) a crossbreed is possible, but that is in no way evidence of any crossbreed being possible. A wolf and a dog are building the same kind of thing using essentially the same tools, so a cross can work.

As completely impossible as cross breeding a fish and a man would be, it would be even more impossible to crossbreed and a man and an eldar with a completely different genetic structure as written in the later source. Not improbable, not unlikely, not a miracle of modern medicine, but impossible. The early reference to a human-eldar crossbreed has been ruled out by the fluff.

If you have your heart set on the idea, say the eldar used their vast tech to manage to create something that could pass for a crossbreed using genes from both. That sounds next to impossible too, but at least it is not physically impossible. We are dealing with fiction, after all. Hell, if you want your personal warhammer universe to have human-eldar hybrids and blue Orks and a race of weaponized saltine crackers then feel free.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 statu wrote:
So it's possible nastase is now just a story then?

It's all a story, or did you think it's real? Your Xenology is just as much fiction as Nastase, both just as valid, and neither contradicting the other.

The wall of text in the post above has already been addressed, no need for me to repeat what's already been repeated.

SJ

Sorry that's my bad, I thought, when I said something like he's a story, not fact etc, you'd realise I was talking in universe, sorry about that, I should have been clearer

I wrote a lot earlier on in this thread a short, simplified snippet based on genes. I am a qualified geneticist who is changing field to focus on genetics in organisms other than bacteria.

The fact I've not been replying to many of the posts based on the hybridisation should really speak volumes (but as many of you don't know me or the potential other people with similar skills on this site,I don't expect it has been noticed).

Everyone has to appreciate this is Science Fiction with a loose scattering of Science to make it sound at least vaguely plausible for the whole scenario to work.

In this case, the early writers of the 40K universe were refining the ideas. Those they liked they developed, those they didn't fell by the wayside. They didn't go back to officially remove those characters, they just ignored their existence and focussed on developing the themes people wanted to read. This is why each codex recycles text from the previous - they omit the pieces that no longer 'exist' or are relevant and carry across those pieces that are.

This hybrid wasn't deemed as a good idea (likely due to the xenophobic attitude of the Imperium they were developing and the animosity between them and the Eldar). So they didn't develop him further. They took the ideas of Astropath and Librarian though and separated them and refined them.

As for the whole 'science' aspect of this. We really shouldn't be taking a literal view on this. I mean - gene seed implants? Come on... If we took the same literal scientific approach, most of the fluff would be wrong and non-existent.


So, I'll be short with my answer from now: You can have convergent evolution where similar traits are developed in separate species that are unrelated. They won't be able to reproduce but they will look similar.

You could argue that the 'Old Ones' used their super-froggy Slaan techno-magic to make the two species using a similar blueprint and say 'they made them compatible somehow' but as previously stated, this is Science Fiction and not literally possible if there are such differences in the basic code.

Remember guys, it's Science Fiction that uses Scientific words but not literal Science fact. If you want to imagine hybrids exist, then do so - it's an imaginary universe and you know what, make it yours and enjoy it. If you don't, then don't and enjoy it all the same. Let's not tell others how to think as it doesn't actually effect the rules of the game (we can already ally Orks and Space Marines so there's an opening right there for nonsense shenanigans)


(Disclaimer: This post is neither in defence of, or attacking either of the views expressed by both sides. I'm posting my view, independently. I'm also not bothered if you question my qualifications - as someone who writes dull reports about genes (specific genes used for industry, not the whole genome) I don't mind if randomers on the internet say 'prove it'. Either take this post as honesty, or decide to ignore it. I don't feel like I have to prove anything by this post so it's up to you what you think).

jeffersonian000 wrote:You seriously want me to admit that a character GW created, published, made art work for, displayed a model for, never actually existed?

Something I've just learnt by looking around the internet it that GW never made a model for him, and that the one in the wiki article etc, was actually made by a dakkadakka member a few years a go

 statu wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:You seriously want me to admit that a character GW created, published, made art work for, displayed a model for, never actually existed?

Something I've just learnt by looking around the internet it that GW never made a model for him, and that the one in the wiki article etc, was actually made by a dakkadakka member a few years a go

I've seen the photos of the model in GW material, noted as a fan made conversion, hence why I wrote "displayed" rather than "created". GW rarely display non-GW conversions and scratch builds these days, but they use to.

As to our resident geneticist and resident paleoanthropologist, won't it be more interest to postulate how the weird stuff in the 40k universe could be, rather than attempt to use in game information to counter other in game information? Wouldn't it be more interesting to apply our current understanding of systems to figuring out how a character like Nastase could exist, or why Orks exist (a humanoid species of fungus that creates and uses human technology, bleeds red blood, and speaks city English). Or how about the scientific explanation on how Geneseed could work, or how Psykers could work, or using the history of folklore to explain how daemons work?

What we had here in this thread was a break down on Eldar genetics (but not a detailed break down), on Marine ranks within the Librarius (but not positions held within the Librarius), on Geneseed (and how people view Geneseed rather than how GW views Geneseed), and on the meaning of canon in a setting the ignores the concept of canon. All facinating to me, and probably to others. The OP asked about the lengthening of DNA versus the lengthening of life spans, as seen with the Eldar, to which healthy debate ensued.

For the record, I'm the one that sides with the material as written working within the guidelines of the setting, be it rules or fluff. An argument that something doesn't work or is broken within the rules or setting in my eyes requires extraordinary reasoning to determine why it is broke or doesn't work. My claim that humans and Eldar must share a common ancestry is backed by at least one named character in the setting. The counter argument needs to prove that such characters no longer exist within the setting, or no never existed within the setting, by citing the passage or passages retracting or retconning the existence of the character in question. The fact remains that the character exists, has not been retracted, and has not been retconned despite several other factors in the character's back ground having been retconned.

Roboute Gilliman is no longer an Imperial Guard Lord Commander uplifted to Primarch status as a reward for his service, with the 3rd Chapter of the 10th Founding of Space Marines crafted from his Geneseed. Gilliman is now one of the 20 Primarch crafted by the Emperor, with the 13th Legion founded from his Geneseed. Thankfully, none of that retracts nor retcons Nastase's existence.

Chief Librarian of the Ultramarine chapter of Space Marinrs is Varro Tigurius, while Chief Librarian Astropath Illiyan Nastase is Chief of Macragge's Interstellar Communications Link. Seems to be two different positions held by two different people, both of which also hold the highest formal rank within the Librarius. No retraction or retcon here, either.

Eldar as distinctly alien humanoids that can pass as Human due to superficial similarities to Humans. Eldar have a complex DNA structure of a five-sided helix composed of amino acids in 20 base pairs. Oh, and they can interbreed with Humans, as seen in RT era fluff which includes the character Ultramarine Chief Librarian Astropath Illiyan Nastase. Wouldn't it be facinating to discuss how such hybrids could exist, rather than waste thread space debating whether or not a specific example did exist?

SJ

I'm sorry, I don't want to be condescending when I say this: The level of background reading and research to prove or disprove the possible existence of a fantasy character is an utter waste of time. I'm simply not bothered by it. That's why I said something along the lines of 'if you like him, use him. If you don't like him, then don't, either way read the fluff how you like' because you'll have more fun that way.

Frankly, it's not that important to me

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 statu wrote:
So it's possible nastase is now just a story then?

It's all a story, or did you think it's real? Your Xenology is just as much fiction as Nastase, both just as valid, and neither contradicting the other.

The wall of text in the post above has already been addressed, no need for me to repeat what's already been repeated.

SJ

You addressed it, but you were wrong about just...everything, really. Basic science, advanced science, the way randomness works, physics, genetics, taxonomy, pretty much the whole lot of it. All you've shown in your attempts at addressing the scienceis that you don't understand any of it. Again, that's your business. I just don't want anyone to read your posts and think that you're saying true things, because you aren't. You obviously think that you understand statistics, which is unfortunate for you personally. As long as nobody comes away wrongly believing what you're saying, that statistical thermodynamics suggests that "any probability, no matter how miniscule, is worth considering," rather than what it actually says, which is "something that will never happen in a billion billion billion ages of the universe must be excluded from consideration," then you're not hurting anyone else at least.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 statu wrote:
So it's possible nastase is now just a story then?

It's all a story, or did you think it's real? Your Xenology is just as much fiction as Nastase, both just as valid, and neither contradicting the other.

The wall of text in the post above has already been addressed, no need for me to repeat what's already been repeated.

SJ

You addressed it, but you were wrong about just...everything, really. Basic science, advanced science, the way randomness works, physics, genetics, taxonomy, pretty much the whole lot of it. All you've shown in your attempts at addressing the scienceis that you don't understand any of it. Again, that's your business. I just don't want anyone to read your posts and think that you're saying true things, because you aren't. You obviously think that you understand statistics, which is unfortunate for you personally. As long as nobody comes away wrongly believing what you're saying, that statistical thermodynamics suggests that "any probability, no matter how miniscule, is worth considering," rather than what it actually says, which is "something that will never happen in a billion billion billion ages of the universe must be excluded from consideration," then you're not hurting anyone else at least.

That's okay, I doubt you problem solving skills and education, mostly from what seems to be a lack of understanding when reading for content. Thankfully, my doubts do not require proofs on your part. What does require proof are yours and my arguments. I proved my argument as soon as it was questioned. We're on page 5 of you attempting to prove your argument.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Please cite one instance where GW has told us to disregard older fluff. If you can do either, then you have a valid argument. If not, you literally have no argument.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Roboute Gilliman is no longer an Imperial Guard Lord Commander uplifted to Primarch status as a reward for his service, with the 3rd Chapter of the 10th Founding of Space Marines crafted from his Geneseed. Gilliman is now one of the 20 Primarch crafted by the Emperor, with the 13th Legion founded from his Geneseed.

I guess I should just let you keep posting for a bit and eventually you'll start refuting your own arguments for me? Fair enough.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Chief Librarian of the Ultramarine chapter of Space Marinrs is Varro Tigurius, while Chief Librarian Astropath Illiyan Nastase is Chief of Macragge's Interstellar Communications Link. Seems to be two different positions held by two different people, both of which also hold the highest formal rank within the Librarius. No retraction or retcon here, either.

Except that astropaths aren't part of the Librarius.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Wouldn't it be facinating to discuss how such hybrids could exist, rather than waste thread space debating whether or not a specific example did exist?

They could write in the fluff that eldar can run faster than the speed of light, and it would still be scientifically impossible, and no, it wouldn't be fascinating to debate why. It would be tiresome.

It's really not that complicated.

In the RT era, a half-eldar was introduced.

Later on, Xenology was published genetic information about the Eldar, proving that a hybrid could not be formed. Thus, it retconned the existence of the said half-eldar.

Basic, entry-level logic.

1-1=0

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 statu wrote:

jeffersonian000 wrote:You seriously want me to admit that a character GW created, published, made art work for, displayed a model for, never actually existed?

Something I've just learnt by looking around the internet it that GW never made a model for him, and that the one in the wiki article etc, was actually made by a dakkadakka member a few years a go

I've seen the photos of the model in GW material, noted as a fan made conversion, hence why I wrote "displayed" rather than "created". GW rarely display non-GW conversions and scratch builds these days, but they use to.

I mentioned that only cause it was someone on dakkadakka that made it, not to try and prove you wrong

Just to put this bed, could you admit that maybe in universe he is just a story? I'll admit maybe xenology could be wrong and as such causing loads of issues, I don't think it is but it could be. Are you willing to do the same worth nastase?

Just to throw a spanner in the works, given that the the WD article uses the term 'an unknown Eldar mercenary', and the fact that Corsair bands are known to interact, hire, and associate with humans, is it a reasonable assumption to assume they meant 'an Eldar-hired human?'

Just, you know, trying to interject an alternate opinion.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

Just, you know, trying to interject an alternate opinion.

you're a bad man, but it made me laugh. Have an exalt

Speaking as someone who has a background in evolutionary biology and genetics, there is no sense in trying to fit actual science within the world of 40K.

Remember the fluff was written by artists and writers with a quasi-understanding of science at best, not to mention our knowledge base and understanding of genetics has exponentially increased in the last 30 years, so things written on the genetic heritage of 40K races in the early editions would be totally incorrect even if they were based on the science of the day.

Overall I omit that part of the fluff in my headcannon and go on to enjoy the game without taking it's science too seriously. (i mean, demons exist in the 40K universe after all)

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

As to protons and photons, I could get into the formation of protons, anti-protons, electrons, and anti-electrons, as well as go off on a tangent discussing why our universe does not seem to want the produce the anti-spin variants in equal proportion, which may have to do with the creation of time, but I've already won the debate. Thanks for participating!

@statu - It would ease my mind somewhat to know that you know that none of what he said above makes any sense. It is a big jumble of impressive words devoid of meaning. I don't know what he's talking about with the universe not wanting to "produce anti-spin variants" in equal proportion, there's no such thing as anti-spin. Possibly he's garbled the chirality of neutrinos and thinks it applies to protons and electrons? Or maybe he's thinking of matter-antimatter imbalance? But antimatter doesn't have "anti-spin", that doesn't even make sense. The "formation of time" part is just as meaningless - exotic symmetry breaking mechanisms in high energy physics can (and do) lead to things like an excess of particles over anti-particles (ie we're made of matter and not anti-matter, although the mechanism is still undiscovered), but this has nothing to do with the "formation" of time, which is not even a concept in physics.

I don't know, to be honest, there's really nothing here that makes enough sense to try to decipher a meaning. As Pauli would have said, this is "not even wrong".

It bothers me when I see people throw around big technical words that they don't understand just to confuse people and make themselves sound more knowledgeable than they are. You were right to question him, and the answer he gave you was gibberish.

 office_waaagh wrote:

@statu - It would ease my mind somewhat to know that you know that none of what he said above makes any sense. It is a big jumble of impressive words devoid of meaning. I don't know what he's talking about with the universe not wanting to "produce anti-spin variants" in equal proportion, there's no such thing as anti-spin. Possibly he's garbled the chirality of neutrinos and thinks it applies to protons and electrons? Or maybe he's thinking of matter-antimatter imbalance? But antimatter doesn't have "anti-spin", that doesn't even make sense. The "formation of time" part is just as meaningless - exotic symmetry breaking mechanisms in high energy physics can (and do) lead to things like an excess of particles over anti-particles (ie we're made of matter and not anti-matter, although the mechanism is still undiscovered), but this has nothing to do with the "formation" of time, which is not even a concept in physics.

I don't know, to be honest, there's really nothing here that makes enough sense to try to decipher a meaning. As Pauli would have said, this is "not even wrong".

It bothers me when I see people throw around big technical words that they don't understand just to confuse people and make themselves sound more knowledgeable than they are. You were right to question him, and the answer he gave you was gibberish.

Anti-Spin means he trying to bring in a concept from a Anime (Cartoon Network just wrapped the Anime up), doesn't really help his view. As I never heard the concept in a real world text only cartoons.

 office_waaagh wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

As to protons and photons, I could get into the formation of protons, anti-protons, electrons, and anti-electrons, as well as go off on a tangent discussing why our universe does not seem to want the produce the anti-spin variants in equal proportion, which may have to do with the creation of time, but I've already won the debate. Thanks for participating!

@statu - It would ease my mind somewhat to know that you know that none of what he said above makes any sense. It is a big jumble of impressive words devoid of meaning. I don't know what he's talking about with the universe not wanting to "produce anti-spin variants" in equal proportion, there's no such thing as anti-spin. Possibly he's garbled the chirality of neutrinos and thinks it applies to protons and electrons? Or maybe he's thinking of matter-antimatter imbalance? But antimatter doesn't have "anti-spin", that doesn't even make sense. The "formation of time" part is just as meaningless - exotic symmetry breaking mechanisms in high energy physics can (and do) lead to things like an excess of particles over anti-particles (ie we're made of matter and not anti-matter, although the mechanism is still undiscovered), but this has nothing to do with the "formation" of time, which is not even a concept in physics.

I don't know, to be honest, there's really nothing here that makes enough sense to try to decipher a meaning. As Pauli would have said, this is "not even wrong".

It bothers me when I see people throw around big technical words that they don't understand just to confuse people and make themselves sound more knowledgeable than they are. You were right to question him, and the answer he gave you was gibberish.

He's just talking about anti-matter, but said anti-electron rather than Positron which is the commonly used term (both are correct though). I'm not sure why though, unless you work at CERN or are employed as a theoretical physicist (heh, employed) it's not really something many people would know or think about unless they Google search it. Everything you need to know you can Google so I'm not sure what he's trying to prove there with that comment