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Requizen wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Just to clear a few things up.

1) IN MY OPINION (in bold so there's no misunderstanding ) GW's target market is teenagers. I believe this because most people I see in a GW store are of that age range. Yes, somewhere out there, a 100 year person who has probably just started the hobby and I'm happy to concede that point!

The only time I've ever seen any teenagers play the game is at an actual GW, and they last a couple weeks before they stop playing. At every FLGS or convention where 40k or WHFB is played, I only see people 20+, who have full time jobs, paint well, convert models, do dioramas, and are usually drunk if the place allows it.

While this may be true it does not change GW's own view of who there target demographic is and I will give you a clue it ain't you or me.

Although I do agree that with the Harlies and rumoured deathwatch they maybe throwing a bone to vets.
Admech I believe are less a vet thing and more a response to a well selling line from forgeworld.

My anecdotal evidence clearly wasn't anecdotal enough. I will depart these boards for 2-3 years, and return only when I've visited every FLGS and GW in Europe, North America, South America, Africa, Asia, and Oceania. Then, I may be permitted to make an opinion on GW's target market.

Seriously, though, I hear what people are saying - it is an expensive hobby for under 30s, FLGS tend to be populated by those in their 20s, and the new paints are good for starters of all ages, but the key question remains: will people buy 9th edition.

I'm lucky because I sold all my Fantasy stuff 2-3 years ago, so I've got a clean slate for this edition. I may be tempted to dive in for old times sake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Just to clear a few things up.

1) IN MY OPINION (in bold so there's no misunderstanding ) GW's target market is teenagers. I believe this because most people I see in a GW store are of that age range. Yes, somewhere out there, a 100 year person who has probably just started the hobby and I'm happy to concede that point!

The only time I've ever seen any teenagers play the game is at an actual GW, and they last a couple weeks before they stop playing. At every FLGS or convention where 40k or WHFB is played, I only see people 20+, who have full time jobs, paint well, convert models, do dioramas, and are usually drunk if the place allows it.

While this may be true it does not change GW's own view of who there target demographic is and I will give you a clue it ain't you or me.

Although I do agree that with the Harlies and rumoured deathwatch they maybe throwing a bone to vets.
Admech I believe are less a vet thing and more a response to a well selling line from forgeworld.

Are you saying that GW are NOT interested in targeting balding, middle aged men?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spyder68 wrote:
Younger kids end up at GW stores as they may not know of other stores or have no way of having a full table and terrain setup in their parents house.

I always saw more people 21+ playing GW games then i did younger kids

I must be unlucky. whenever desperation forced me into a GW store to buy that one pot of paint I forgot from wayland, or the spray undercoat died when it was most needed, the GW store was always packed with kids.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
As long as 9th is fun, I think the change will be for the best.

I think this is the one thing that people are really missing here. How about we actually see if the new edition is fun before completely condemning it, hm?

Aye, I hear ya!

Rebasing is not my idea of fun though

Are we all assuming everything in the box will be on round bases or are people just making assumptions and the round bases end up going to the monster or war machine model?

Wonder if they'll do a complete clean sweep of models over time. Elves in particular sound like they'll need a total "We're all friends now" revamp.

 Lou_Cypher wrote:
Are we all assuming everything in the box will be on round bases or are people just making assumptions and the round bases end up going to the monster or war machine model?

I think it's pretty much a given that all models will be on round bases.

If only GW did focus groups on way to fix their games... I doubt "Put everything on round bases" would be high on the "WANT" list for WFB.

Does anyone else do focus groups in the industry?

Yeah, if Ward left in May 2014 and ET Khaine came out in November then he had ample time to write the atrocious fluff in that book before it went off to publishing/distribution. Who else would include a reference to his OC Draigo?

SeanDrake wrote:

Requizen wrote:


While this may be true it does not change GW's own view of who there target demographic is and I will give you a clue it ain't you or me.

Although I do agree that with the Harlies and rumoured deathwatch they maybe throwing a bone to vets.
Admech I believe are less a vet thing and more a response to a well selling line from forgeworld.

Which kind of by default means it IS appealing to veterans!

 monders wrote:
Does anyone else do focus groups in the industry?

Not as such, a lot of companies and authors go to events (shows/tournaments) though and ask people about the hobby.

Herzlos wrote:

 monders wrote:
Does anyone else do focus groups in the industry?

Not as such, a lot of companies and authors go to events (shows/tournaments) though and ask people about the hobby.

Don't forgeworld events and games-day (warhammer day?) also have similar parts? I don't know I've never been to one.

I would argue even gwdoesn't know who they are marketing too. No market research remember?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
1) IN MY OPINION (in bold so there's no misunderstanding ) GW's target market is teenagers. I believe this because most people I see in a GW store are of that age range.

That doesn't mean that teenagers are their target audience, just that teenagers hang around in their stores.

Herzlos wrote:

 monders wrote:
Does anyone else do focus groups in the industry?

Not as such, a lot of companies and authors go to events (shows/tournaments) though and ask people about the hobby.

This. Most other games companies actually communicate with their customers, rather than just issuing missives from their ivory tower.

GW thinks they know who their customers are and what they want, but they don't do any market research, and have been working over the last decade or so to close off any avenue of direct communication with their customers... which means that they're really just guessing. And declining sales volumes over the last few financials would suggest that they're not guessing right.

 insaniak wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
1) IN MY OPINION (in bold so there's no misunderstanding ) GW's target market is teenagers. I believe this because most people I see in a GW store are of that age range.

That doesn't mean that teenagers are their target audience, just that teenagers hang around in their stores.

Herzlos wrote:

 monders wrote:
Does anyone else do focus groups in the industry?

Not as such, a lot of companies and authors go to events (shows/tournaments) though and ask people about the hobby.

This. Most other games companies actually communicate with their customers, rather than just issuing missives from their ivory tower.

GW thinks they know who their customers are and what they want, but they don't do any market research, and have been working over the last decade or so to close off any avenue of direct communication with their customers... which means that they're really just guessing. And declining sales volumes over the last few financials would suggest that they're not guessing right.

This. 100% this. Communication with the customer base has gone downhill in the past 5 years and it''s quite tragic. Even the standard of training for retail staff has gone the same way.

I've known a number of GW managers and the difference in their traning over the years is painfully obvious.

The most recent just wants to sell, sell, sell to the point where his FB posts in the local gaming club's forums seem like he's begging for someone to show up to the weekend events/games which sadly seem to be catered to only sell. Seriously, he tried to hold an in-store tournament...which gave people bonuses for every £10 spent on the day. Literally transformed it into Pay to Win.

The manager before him had a similar hardline sell, sell, sell approach, to the point of just reselling returns that were clearly faulty like there was nothing wrong. This is the manager that largely put me off the hobby, due to the amount of crap he talked and the very deliberate manner in which he would try to push things on people. His sales technique was abusive and I know for a fact he's been brought up on disciplinaries for that twice.

The manager before that was a genuinely good guy - who explained the training they got a number of years ago. Did you know that if someone came in with a car tire and kicked off the policy used to be to take the care tire and reimburse them? It didn't matter so much whether GW sold it or not as customer service and interaction was the priority. I know people will say that these policies would bankrupt a store...but oddly, they didn't. This was the peak of the store's sales, their golden age.

GW lack market research and their attitude of 'we know what you want' really isn't sitting well. They don't go to conventions and events. They don't interact with people outside of a sales perspective. They have no idea of what is going on and their approach to flagging sales is the exact opposite of what people want.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
As long as 9th is fun, I think the change will be for the best.

I think this is the one thing that people are really missing here. How about we actually see if the new edition is fun before completely condemning it, hm?

Aye, I hear ya!

Rebasing is not my idea of fun though

I am NOT rebasing nearly 25,000 points of models.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I am NOT rebasing nearly 25,000 points of models.

You'll only need to rebase 1000pts, the other 24,000 will be squatted anyway!

 Bottle wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 monders wrote:
Does anyone else do focus groups in the industry?

Not as such, a lot of companies and authors go to events (shows/tournaments) though and ask people about the hobby.

Don't forgeworld events and games-day (warhammer day?) also have similar parts? I don't know I've never been to one.

They have Q/A sessions, where the customers can ask them questions and the designers/authors may answer some questions about that specific subject, but from what I can tell there's no real feedback channel. They don't ask "So where would you like to see WHF go next?"

Pojko wrote:Yeah, if Ward left in May 2014 and ET Khaine came out in November then he had ample time to write the atrocious fluff in that book before it went off to publishing/distribution. Who else would include a reference to his OC Draigo?

Totally agree on the woeful fluff in Khaine. I think Khaine is easily the worst of the End Times books. Nagash and Glottkin were the best but I guess it was because there was still hope that the narrative was going somewhere positive with a decent outcome. Thanquol was a good read but was hard to take seriously with the depiction of some faction's behaviour (Skaven going into Tyranid mode for most of the book, Dwarfs charging out of well defended holds, Lizardmen providing no resistance to the skavenids etc.).

Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
As long as 9th is fun, I think the change will be for the best.

I think this is the one thing that people are really missing here. How about we actually see if the new edition is fun before completely condemning it, hm?

Aye, I hear ya!

Rebasing is not my idea of fun though

I am NOT rebasing nearly 25,000 points of models.

Seriously can't believe they are going to do this with Warhammer. Have loads of models too and am not rebasing them. If it does go round base it's fairly obvious how inspiring Warmahordes is to other game designers!

 Flashman wrote:
Wonder if they'll do a complete clean sweep of models over time. Elves in particular sound like they'll need a total "We're all friends now" revamp.

What elves? They were all at each others throats. Then Khorne and Khaine took turns destroying Naggaroth. Then Malekith ended the civil war. Then Ulthuan caught fire, fell over, and sank. Then Archaon blew up the planet... All in the span of like two or three years.

There aren't any Elves.

Post End Times the word you're looking for is "Eldar." They on the other hand are doing fine.

 insaniak wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
1) IN MY OPINION (in bold so there's no misunderstanding ) GW's target market is teenagers. I believe this because most people I see in a GW store are of that age range.

That doesn't mean that teenagers are their target audience, just that teenagers hang around in their stores.

How about their commercials not featuring anything but teens and pre-teens in them?
How about the statements about grabbing the one birthday and one Christmas from young buyers?
How about hearing it face to face straight from the mouth of the sales manager for Southern Europe?

PhantomViper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
1) IN MY OPINION (in bold so there's no misunderstanding ) GW's target market is teenagers. I believe this because most people I see in a GW store are of that age range.

That doesn't mean that teenagers are their target audience, just that teenagers hang around in their stores.

How about their commercials not featuring anything but teens and pre-teens in them?
How about the statements about grabbing the one birthday and one Christmas from young buyers?
How about hearing it face to face straight from the mouth of the sales manager for Southern Europe?

This is what I wanted to say

Anyway, back OT. Why o why don't GW include painting guides with their starter sets. I hope the new fantasy starter will have them, but not to include them in dark vengeance or island of blood, was criminal in my view.

MaxT wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I am NOT rebasing nearly 25,000 points of models.

You'll only need to rebase 1000pts, the other 24,000 will be squatted anyway!

Of course that's going to be 1000pts of skaven slaves

 Bolognesus wrote:

MaxT wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


I am NOT rebasing nearly 25,000 points of models.

You'll only need to rebase 1000pts, the other 24,000 will be squatted anyway!

Of course that's going to be 1000pts of skaven slaves

To be fair, one of my armies is Warriors of Chaos. I can do 1,000 points with two models.

If you don't like 9th, just play 8th?

 SJM wrote:
If you don't like 9th, just play 8th?

I'm trying to recapture my youth, and it seems the teens are all going to be playing 9th. So this isn't an option :(

The Division Of Joy wrote:

 SJM wrote:
If you don't like 9th, just play 8th?

I'm trying to recapture my youth, and it seems the teens are all going to be playing 9th. So this isn't an option :(

meddling kids!

THEY'RE the ones ruining this hobby, with their nice paints and easy to assemble miniatures!

Back on topic...

With the direction GW have been going with there ET sculpts, it'll be cook to see some more dynamic horsebacked units like Grail Knights. I just hope the rumour of a two-tiered approach (larger battles and skirmish) are true, as I would like to use the newer toys in a battlegroup. Something I won't be able to do if I stick with 8th (without making own rules etc, and people always seem to get tearful with that for some reason)

Part of me just can't see them doing the whole round base thing. I imagine they will do square base skirmish as you can line dudes up better for combat, plus it won't piss everyone off who splashed out on the end of times stuff.

TBH, I'm only interested in 40k, so I'm hoping for some nice new Orc models to butcher the heck out of.