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 streamdragon wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Well, without invalidating models, except for:

-Models you won't use because they aren't in the new lists....

So they won't invalidate models, except for all the units they invalidate...

Because there is no way to use that %charactername% model as a default general, sergeant or special weapons-guy...

But given GW's iffy way of creating appeal in their games, it's a step down from from using them as a sooperdedooper speshul character with a gigantic axe of hackenslashing, a 2+++++ save, and the ability to change grunts into ubermensch just by standing somewhere in their general vicinity.

To be honest I wouldn't mind a change away from that, even for the default/generic generals, but that's not what people bought the minis for.

Would like to see a brand new system. I like X-Wing's dice system for example, simple fast flowing.

If they stick with - I go, You go, Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save Zzzzzzzzzzzz - then I probably won't be interested. Being doing that for literally decades now.

 Kosake wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Well, without invalidating models, except for:

-Models you won't use because they aren't in the new lists....

So they won't invalidate models, except for all the units they invalidate...

Because there is no way to use that %charactername% model as a default general, sergeant or special weapons-guy...

Now bear in mind, I say this as someone who converts absolutely everything and am a huge fan of the 40K Allies rules because of the way they allow me to mash different sets of unit rules together to create "counts as" armies: bollocks. Counts As, using fancy models for generic characters, using generic models for fancy characters, these things should be choices made by the players, not necessities imposed by the company because they just wiped out half the factions, half the characters, half the units, and burned the entire planetary setting to a cinder.

If I liked and owned an army of Squats then I can still use the models as Guard or Marines, but that's still not playing Squats. If GW were to eradicate Dark Eldar tomorrow, you could still use the models with Eldar rules, but it's not the same, and a lot of people bough the models they did and built the armies they did because they liked the whole package; aesthetic, rules, background. If you take two of those things away, then you have demonstrably and objectively diminished the value of that player's collection to them.

 Flashman wrote:
Would like to see a brand new system. I like X-Wing's dice system for example, simple fast flowing.

If they stick with - I go, You go, Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save Zzzzzzzzzzzz - then I probably won't be interested. Being doing that for literally decades now.

Psst. Hey. Hey man. You like rollin'? Yeah... yeah. Who doesn't like rollin'. What you like? Deesixes gettin' too tame, yeah? Tasted them fancy Exwing dice and rollin' IGOUGO don't do it anymore. Yeah. I know what ya sayin'. You wanna roll more a' them sweet polys, get you resolved quick, less'n half the time. I getcha. I got sumpthin' you might like right here.

 Yodhrin wrote:


Now bear in mind, I say this as someone who converts absolutely everything and am a huge fan of the 40K Allies rules because of the way they allow me to mash different sets of unit rules together to create "counts as" armies: bollocks. Counts As, using fancy models for generic characters, using generic models for fancy characters, these things should be choices made by the players, not necessities imposed by the company because they just wiped out half the factions, half the characters, half the units, and burned the entire planetary setting to a cinder.

If I liked and owned an army of Squats then I can still use the models as Guard or Marines, but that's still not playing Squats. If GW were to eradicate Dark Eldar tomorrow, you could still use the models with Eldar rules, but it's not the same, and a lot of people bough the models they did and built the armies they did because they liked the whole package; aesthetic, rules, background. If you take two of those things away, then you have demonstrably and objectively diminished the value of that player's collection to them.

Hm... point taken. Lack of unique background is quite the deal-breaker for anything warhammer-y. The newer models are okay but overpriced and the rules are utter crap. If it weren't for the unique setting, GW would've gone belly up a long time ago.

 Kosake wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Well, without invalidating models, except for:

-Models you won't use because they aren't in the new lists....

So they won't invalidate models, except for all the units they invalidate...

Because there is no way to use that %charactername% model as a default general, sergeant or special weapons-guy...

I said units.

I play skaven. While I can see "well, no more gutter runners but you can still use them as night runners!" being an argument, there are plenty of other units that aren't going to work that way. Jezzails, Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Weapon Teams, etc. etc. You're telling me "there will be generic forms of everything!"? Will my Jezzails really be filling the same "generic shooty unit" role that, say, a human archer model would?

Cause if so, I have to say that sounds not at all exciting.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Well, without invalidating models, except for:



-Models you won't use because they aren't in the new lists....

So they won't invalidate models, except for all the units they invalidate...

I can see it happening along with the official comment " you can still use your discontinued unit as a count as for a supported one."


Nice post Mikhaila
As for the comment "Quality of gameplay matters. " I have the a bad feeling about this one I really do, specially with the leaflet rumor floating around. Will WFB for the first time swap places with other companies? I mean, will we buy the wonderful WFB models to use for other games? Usually its the opposite.

While I'm no stranger to voluntarily building/converting models from both GW and other companies to use instead of official ones, I'd definitely not appreciate that type of change being forced upon me as a player. I luckily don't play fantasy but I empathise with those worried about this rumored change. The only acceptable and appropriate counter I see is that GW starts taking "counts as" money in return for new product when ordering direct (both by retailers and consumers).

 streamdragon wrote:

 Kosake wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Well, without invalidating models, except for:

-Models you won't use because they aren't in the new lists....

So they won't invalidate models, except for all the units they invalidate...

Because there is no way to use that %charactername% model as a default general, sergeant or special weapons-guy...

I said units.

I play skaven. While I can see "well, no more gutter runners but you can still use them as night runners!" being an argument, there are plenty of other units that aren't going to work that way. Jezzails, Poisoned Wind Globadiers, Weapon Teams, etc. etc. You're telling me "there will be generic forms of everything!"? Will my Jezzails really be filling the same "generic shooty unit" role that, say, a human archer model would?

Cause if so, I have to say that sounds not at all exciting.

Yeah, I mean either you have new units that are very similar to the old units that you can use the only ones to proxy, in which case what's the point of rebooting the model range, or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

 ImAGeek wrote:
or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

What's so important about making, say, one type of elf spearman so different, special and unique from the others, whether high, dark, wood or even sea? What does make then so different, special and unique anyway?

 Vermis wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

What's so important about making, say, one type of elf spearman so different, special and unique from the others, whether high, dark, wood or even sea? What does make then so different, special and unique anyway?

Nothing.. if that is what you start with and continue. Once you make something "special", it is reasonable to be upset when that utility is yanked away from you. As a kid growing up in an immigrant family, our first car didn't have AC and our apartment had a single window unit for the whole 3 bedroom flat... it didn't bother me back then. If all of a sudden my AC conked out in my current house and my car's compressor broke, I certainly wouldn't be happy either. There is a saying about a cat and a bag that fits here as well.

 Vermis wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

What's so important about making, say, one type of elf spearman so different, special and unique from the others, whether high, dark, wood or even sea? What does make then so different, special and unique anyway?

I think the problem is less that some types of elf spearmen may be "homogenized," and more that we don't know what else has changed. How many other elf units have been combined? What about human armies? How many unique units (grail knights, dryads, plague monks, etc.) will survive the transition? Do Lizardmen even exist any more? It's not the changes that people are worried about (well, maybe a little), it's the uncertainty that people are freaking out about it.

 Vermis wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

What's so important about making, say, one type of elf spearman so different, special and unique from the others, whether high, dark, wood or even sea? What does make then so different, special and unique anyway?

Besides being from three separate armies (with their accompanying special rules)? Not much, admittedly. But I'm not talking about "elf spearmen". I'm talking about the outlier units like Jezzails, Globadiers, or Weapon Teams. I can't imagine all the Lizardman players that bought the new anklyosaur laser dudes would be happy about losing those either. Are you really telling me my Jezzails should be a "generic shooty unit" on par with elf bowmen?

 Guildsman wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

What's so important about making, say, one type of elf spearman so different, special and unique from the others, whether high, dark, wood or even sea? What does make then so different, special and unique anyway?

I think the problem is less that some types of elf spearmen may be "homogenized," and more that we don't know what else has changed. How many other elf units have been combined? What about human armies? How many unique units (grail knights, dryads, plague monks, etc.) will survive the transition? Do Lizardmen even exist any more? It's not the changes that people are worried about (well, maybe a little), it's the uncertainty that people are freaking out about it.

To take it a bit farther, imagine a game system that had no differentiation between races etc. Just spearmen and swordsmen in either light or heavy format. Then you could play any type! Just treat the model as a skin that goes over top. Super streamlined rules!
But that wouldn't appeal. Part of the fun of fantasy games is that the different races/factions add variety and interest, because their play style and their aesthetic (when the two line up) make them feel different and interesting.
That is not to say that different for difference's sake is good, but rather that the variety is part of the charm of the genre. If you just want humans with different weapons, there are a ton of various historical games that will scratch that itch quite well.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
or you have new models/rules generic enough that lots of things can proxy as one thing, which just sounds dull.

What's so important about making, say, one type of elf spearman so different, special and unique from the others, whether high, dark, wood or even sea? What does make then so different, special and unique anyway?

Besides being from three separate armies (with their accompanying special rules)? Not much, admittedly. But I'm not talking about "elf spearmen". I'm talking about the outlier units like Jezzails, Globadiers, or Weapon Teams. I can't imagine all the Lizardman players that bought the new anklyosaur laser dudes would be happy about losing those either. Are you really telling me my Jezzails should be a "generic shooty unit" on par with elf bowmen?

Yeah that's more the stuff I meant. Elf spearmen, fine, combine them. But weirder stuff, you either invalidate it, make a new version of the same unit (what's the point?) or make things so generic so everything like that can fit in which is just dull.

I am a fan of how every unit in WHFB played differently because of all the special rules. If the game is downsizing and switching to skirmish then it doesn't need to be streamlined in my opinion.

Thats a reason why it not only needed to be streamlined, but a complete rework from zero.
Having a lot of special rules on the units instead of just different profiles and army rules is one reason why there are so much bad and overpowerd units.

 kodos wrote:
Thats a reason why it not only needed to be streamlined, but a complete rework from zero.
Having a lot of special rules on the units instead of just different profiles and army rules is one reason why there are so much bad and overpowerd units.

Yea, that I will buy. If they were to scrap all the army books and start from scratch, building each unit (even as it exists, or existed in 7th last time I played) to really match the unit's fluff, that would be alright. If they scrapped the whole rule system and started over but kept the fluff/units, basically stripping the game down to the studs of story they want to tell, I would accept that too.
Just giving up on variation and balance in favor of rules with no variation per faction, that is not a good outcome.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407604-Warhammer-9th-Edition-Roundup-Discussion-%28Reloaded%29&p=7439651#post7439651

Just coming back from my local store following some strange message on facebook and inviting us to pass by .

9th edition will be released on saturday the 13th of june .

My local store is organising on friday the 12th a warhammer tournament beginning at 8.00pm for thoses who will have reserved their 9th edition rule book ( If I correctly understand there will be 2 weeks of preorder )

At 0.00 , He will give to players their books .

Il will be a 8th edition tournament but the local manager will release a summary of the changes if they are not to numerous in order to play in 9th edition . If it changes too much , he says that it will be a 8th edition one ^^

Considering the policy of games workshop , I don't think that will be some local initiative , so other people might have the same level of information to confirm .

 kodos wrote:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407604-Warhammer-9th-Edition-Roundup-Discussion-%28Reloaded%29&p=7439651#post7439651

Just coming back from my local store following some strange message on facebook and inviting us to pass by .

9th edition will be released on saturday the 13th of june .

My local store is organising on friday the 12th a warhammer tournament beginning at 8.00pm for thoses who will have reserved their 9th edition rule book ( If I correctly understand there will be 2 weeks of preorder )

At 0.00 , He will give to players their books .

Il will be a 8th edition tournament but the local manager will release a summary of the changes if they are not to numerous in order to play in 9th edition . If it changes too much , he says that it will be a 8th edition one ^^

Considering the policy of games workshop , I don't think that will be some local initiative , so other people might have the same level of information to confirm .

Sounds like quite a fun event, really.

Doesn't the implication of that, namely an event which could be 8th Ed, or 9th Ed rules (if the changes aren't too numerous), suggest that the game isn't as "different" as people were imagining?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Doesn't the implication of that, namely an event which could be 8th Ed, or 9th Ed rules (if the changes aren't too numerous), suggest that the game isn't as "different" as people were imagining?

It doesn't mean anything, as the store owner knows as much as us. It says IF the changes aren't too numerous, so it could still be a very different game.

No, the fact that it might be an 8th edition tournament or it might be a 9th edition one shows that the store manager, like everyone else, has no idea what's coming.

 kodos wrote:
Thats a reason why it not only needed to be streamlined, but a complete rework from zero.
Having a lot of special rules on the units instead of just different profiles and army rules is one reason why there are so much bad and overpowerd units.

I am honestly asking this:


Is there a game as long running as Warhammer Fantasy Battle, with close to as many updates, that has actual balance for all units? I would posit that is almost an issue of time as much as anything else.

 kodos wrote:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407604-Warhammer-9th-Edition-Roundup-Discussion-%28Reloaded%29&p=7439651#post7439651

Just coming back from my local store following some strange message on facebook and inviting us to pass by .

9th edition will be released on saturday the 13th of june .

My local store is organising on friday the 12th a warhammer tournament beginning at 8.00pm for thoses who will have reserved their 9th edition rule book ( If I correctly understand there will be 2 weeks of preorder )

At 0.00 , He will give to players their books .

Il will be a 8th edition tournament but the local manager will release a summary of the changes if they are not to numerous in order to play in 9th edition . If it changes too much , he says that it will be a 8th edition one ^^

Considering the policy of games workshop , I don't think that will be some local initiative , so other people might have the same level of information to confirm .

Sonds like GW to imagine the main part of the rules dont leak in advance so the store manager can reveal all the "great news" of the exiting new edition at midnight to a gawking and gasping audience.

 Fayric wrote:

 kodos wrote:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?407604-Warhammer-9th-Edition-Roundup-Discussion-%28Reloaded%29&p=7439651#post7439651

Just coming back from my local store following some strange message on facebook and inviting us to pass by .

9th edition will be released on saturday the 13th of june .

My local store is organising on friday the 12th a warhammer tournament beginning at 8.00pm for thoses who will have reserved their 9th edition rule book ( If I correctly understand there will be 2 weeks of preorder )

At 0.00 , He will give to players their books .

Il will be a 8th edition tournament but the local manager will release a summary of the changes if they are not to numerous in order to play in 9th edition . If it changes too much , he says that it will be a 8th edition one ^^

Considering the policy of games workshop , I don't think that will be some local initiative , so other people might have the same level of information to confirm .

Sonds like GW to imagine the main part of the rules dont leak in advance so the store manager can reveal all the "great news" of the exiting new edition at midnight to a gawking and gasping audience.

Sounds like the manager set this up himself, not GW.

 Bottle wrote:
I am a fan of how every unit in WHFB played differently because of all the special rules. If the game is downsizing and switching to skirmish then it doesn't need to be streamlined in my opinion.

Agreed, if it downsizes and transitions to a skirmish game it won't need streamlining... because the game will be dead and stores won't even carry it.

 streamdragon wrote:

I am honestly asking this:


Is there a game as long running as Warhammer Fantasy Battle, with close to as many updates, that has actual balance for all units? I would posit that is almost an issue of time as much as anything else.

How is the number of editions relevant? Every time that GW brings out a new edition, they have the opportunity to address the balance issues. Every time that GW re-releases an army book, they have the opportunity to address the balance issues.

That after these many editions and this many years, their end result is the two worst commercially available miniature games in the world, is a true testament to the incompetence of their rules writers and game developers.

 streamdragon wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Thats a reason why it not only needed to be streamlined, but a complete rework from zero.
Having a lot of special rules on the units instead of just different profiles and army rules is one reason why there are so much bad and overpowerd units.

I am honestly asking this:

Is there a game as long running as Warhammer Fantasy Battle, with close to as many updates, that has actual balance for all units? I would posit that is almost an issue of time as much as anything else.

yes it is an issue of time
but Warhammer is not one game with a lot of updates, but a lot of different games with 1 to 2 updates.
the 3rd edition, 4th/5th edition, 6th/7th edition are 3 games on their own which only share some rules and background.

we are not playing an improved Warhammer at the moment, 8th edition is the basic one and 9th should be the improved one.
like 7th edi was an improved 6th edition, (but the 6th was not an improved 5th edition)

Warhammer, "mass fantasy battle" game still has the same core rules which are from a skirmish game. There are a lot of rules taken from an old edition which are not needed and instead of simplifying things, warhammer gets more complicated.
To many special rules are another problem. Instead of different game play, we just get "good" armies with a lot of special rules and "bad" armies with less special rules or the same amount for more points.

PhantomViper wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

I am honestly asking this:


Is there a game as long running as Warhammer Fantasy Battle, with close to as many updates, that has actual balance for all units? I would posit that is almost an issue of time as much as anything else.

How is the number of editions relevant? Every time that GW brings out a new edition, they have the opportunity to address the balance issues. Every time that GW re-releases an army book, they have the opportunity to address the balance issues.

That after these many editions and this many years, their end result is the two worst commercially available miniature games in the world, is a true testament to the incompetence of their rules writers and game developers.

Because they have 30+ years of units to try to balance? Finding balance is easy when you're talking about a handful of things. When you're talking about how many armies with how many units though? Hence my question. Is there a game, older than most of its players, that has something resembling perfect balance amongst its armies, and amongst units within said armies?

Also, lol @ underlined.