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Not gonna lie. Part of me also wants fantasy to be awesome because it'll slow down the release pace of 40k. Seriously, 6 codexes in like 10 weeks is nuts...

 Hive City Dweller wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Some good points. For those defending GW's actions, here's what Kilkrazy had to say about it on the GW financial report discussion thread. I hope he forgives me for pinching his quote

"If this six month report is negative, it will be the fifth in a series of negative six month reports. In other words, two and a half years of falling sales."

So, a company with falling sales is obviously in a healthy position to write off 3 weeks, possibly more, of sales of one of its premier products?

Again, I say this: what kind of kamikaze business practices are GW engaging in? And who taught them this!!

That's just it though; it really wasn't their premier product. If they stopped making and marketing 40K for 3 months that would be kamikaze finances, but as it stands they are formally ending their no longer well selling line of fantasy products to re-invent it into something that it workable and profitable. Granted they are not masters of marketing and finance, but WHFB needed new life breathed into it.

Does this suck for the current players who are enjoying 8th? Yes. Could this generate enough excitement and curiosity to get a few 40K players to buy into a fantasy skirmish game? It seems like a risk worth taking.

I know for me what prevented me from really getting into fantasy was the insane model count, price point and ranked square bases. If they make a workable skirmish game that works with a few troops an elite choice and a wizard or two, I'd be right into it as a side project apart from my 40K army. My friends also share this view point. So if you can sell the modesl you already have to players who would play small/medium sized skirmish games with them with a simple base change, why on earth would you not?

Fantasy is GW's premier product - it was their flagship before 40k appeared on the scene. Fantasy's problems are entirely self-inflicted by GW. They wanted more models on the table = more money, so they designed their 8th edition to reflect this, and cut the costs of basic troops, forcing people to take higher model counts.

Mordheim was a great fantasy skirmish game, but they killed it off. GW only have themselves to blame for Fantasy's demise.

And from what other people are saying, 40k could be doing much better, as well.


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 Hulksmash wrote:
Not gonna lie. Part of me also wants fantasy to be awesome because it'll slow down the release pace of 40k. Seriously, 6 codexes in like 10 weeks is nuts...

Tell-tale sign of a company milking it for all its worth.

Aye.. if folks haven't recognized the pattern GW seems to have been sharing with TSR in its death throws previous to this year.. I am guessing many more folks, especially those who remember that fall.. are seeing it clearly now.

Hell the only thing that worries me about the reboot was the last company to try that with a system I was heavily invested in.. was White Wolf and the World of Darkness. *shudder*

On saying that.. I still have hope though.. I am just prepared for the worst.

Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.

I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.

And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.

What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.

I shake my head at the sheer folly of all this.

It's not a all different from a model changeover at any car manufacturer. They stop production of the current model, take a few weeks to retool the line, and then slowly ramp up the new model. Dealers can go slack for weeks at a time during this period, as they clear out the old in preparation for the new. If it is a niche model that sells low volumes, it's not an issue.

WFB isn't a "premier" line - it's a sideline to what they really sell: 40k. Been like this for at least a decade. GW could have pulled the WFB line months ago, and the dead period wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. It's not like they'll stop selling models, paint, supplies, terrain, or (most importantly) 40k. And GW overall profits are probably quite good. They spend a lot of effort building up the 40k things and all of those Codices, and this year, they're cashing in with a Codex every month. The Space Marine Codex alone will cover the gap for Fantasy, given that Space Marines outsell all Fantasy *combined*.

I shake my head that you don't understand changeovers.

 mikhaila wrote:
Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.

I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.

And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.

Ah, didn't realize it was the publishing issues that was a bitter blow, I tended to follow the stories of books never ,leaving the warehouse, too many printed etc.. I suppose it that regard GW aren't making the same mistake, rather going down the ultra limited route and leaving money on the table.

Boss Salvage wrote:particularly when they have bonuses built in for painting
- Salvage

Wait, there are by-the-rulebook bonuses for painted models over unpainted?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.

What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.

I shake my head at the sheer folly of all this.

It's not a all different from a model changeover at any car manufacturer. They stop production of the current model, take a few weeks to retool the line, and then slowly ramp up the new model. Dealers can go slack for weeks at a time during this period, as they clear out the old in preparation for the new. If it is a niche model that sells low volumes, it's not an issue.

WFB isn't a "premier" line - it's a sideline to what they really sell: 40k. Been like this for at least a decade. GW could have pulled the WFB line months ago, and the dead period wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. It's not like they'll stop selling models, paint, supplies, terrain, or (most importantly) 40k. And GW overall profits are probably quite good. They spend a lot of effort building up the 40k things and all of those Codices, and this year, they're cashing in with a Codex every month. The Space Marine Codex alone will cover the gap for Fantasy, given that Space Marines outsell all Fantasy *combined*.

I shake my head that you don't understand changeovers.

That maybe, but for example, if Ford were bringing out a new car on 4th July, do you think they'd keep images or product info under wraps until the last minute? Hell no! They'd be shouting about it from the mountains for weeks on end. We would know what this new Ford looks like long before July 4th. That's the difference I'm trying to highlight between 'normal' companies and GW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mikhaila wrote:
Lots and lots of differences in the demise of TSR and where GW is today. Although their might be some similarities we also don't know about yet.

I'd love to know certain things about Black Libraries book distribution and it's liabilities. That cause a major hit to TSR when they shot themselves in the foot by announcing self distribution of paperbacks and triggering millions of dollars of returns of unlold books.

And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.

I suspect that you already know more about BL's distribution and liabilities than you think you know. For example, a lot of their stuff is digital (no worries about stock collecting dust or print runs) and their limited stuff doesn't have big print runs, so not much of a hit to take if things go wrong.

 streamdragon wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:particularly when they have bonuses built in for painting
- Salvage

Wait, there are by-the-rulebook bonuses for painted models over unpainted?

For Journeyman Leagues, yes, you have point bonuses for painted models.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
If GW are pulling all their army books, and nobody's buying any current stuff (because they're waiting for AOS) then GW are effectively not making any fantasy sales for 3 weeks. Given that 9th rumours have been going a while, and the community has been reluctant to buy fantasy stuff for longer than 3 weeks, effectively, GW's profits have taken a hit.

What kind of company is this? What kind of company engages in such kamikaze business practices? Fantasy is supposed to be one of GW's premier lines, but they're effectively telling people to buy NOTHING.

I shake my head at the sheer folly of all this.

It's not a all different from a model changeover at any car manufacturer. They stop production of the current model, take a few weeks to retool the line, and then slowly ramp up the new model. Dealers can go slack for weeks at a time during this period, as they clear out the old in preparation for the new. If it is a niche model that sells low volumes, it's not an issue.

WFB isn't a "premier" line - it's a sideline to what they really sell: 40k. Been like this for at least a decade. GW could have pulled the WFB line months ago, and the dead period wouldn't hurt them in the slightest. It's not like they'll stop selling models, paint, supplies, terrain, or (most importantly) 40k. And GW overall profits are probably quite good. They spend a lot of effort building up the 40k things and all of those Codices, and this year, they're cashing in with a Codex every month. The Space Marine Codex alone will cover the gap for Fantasy, given that Space Marines outsell all Fantasy *combined*.

I shake my head that you don't understand changeovers.

That maybe, but for example, if Ford were bringing out a new car on 4th July, do you think they'd keep images or product info under wraps until the last minute? Hell no! They'd be shouting about it from the mountains for weeks on end. We would know what this new Ford looks like long before July 4th. That's the difference I'm trying to highlight between 'normal' companies and GW.

Not everybody follows automotive news. A lot of car buyers go once every several years, shop a few weekends, and just buy whatever happens to be on the lot - it doesn't matter that much whether the car is new or old or that there's a changeover.

For example, are you even aware that there's a new Chevy Volt coming out later this year? Tell me how the new Volt is going to be different from the old one. Do you know what the sales history is for the Volt? How about availability? And launch/release? Go on, enlighten me.

One things for sure, with a new model on the horizon the dealers wouldn't be selling the old model at full price and denying all knowledge of the new one, even if asked directly by a customer.

As I've asked twice before: what is AOS? A new anti-dandruff shampoo? I don't know because GW won't tell us!

If a business tells people for months about a new product, but nobody buys it, at least the business can say that it didn't sell through lack of advertising.

GW's approach is strange. They're selling us something in July. Logically, we can deduce it will be war-games related, but in what context? New paints? A book? miniatures?

If it is a new version of 9th is it skirmish? Full-blown? Mass multiplayer, 30,000 points a side?

I compare that with FOW's Vietnam stuff. I got info, pics, release date, the whole 9 yards.


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 Azreal13 wrote:
One things for sure, with a new model on the horizon the dealers wouldn't be selling the old model at full price and denying all knowledge of the new one, even if asked directly by a customer.

This a hundred times

HobbyBox wrote:

 Hive City Dweller wrote:
Regarding the point that GW are not selling any fantasy kits for a few weeks; I really don't think it's that big of a hit for them. Fantasy came to an end because it needed a re-working to make it more popular and sell more kits. Since their profits from the first half of the year have been pretty decent (Necrons, Eldar, Ad Mech X2, Demon Kin and Imperial Knights all sold really well both online and in my local GW store) I think they can take the absence of their worst selling product for a while.

I do agree that they should have put out more information to create hype/alleviate fears though.

The problem is, the sales freeze of WHFB hasn't been a few weeks. Almost everyone I know and everyone I follow on the internet (via Twitter, forums and podcasts) stopped buying WHFB models and everything when Thanquol came out (and the Lizards peaced out) and then when the final pages of Archaon leaked. That is one third of a year's worth of sales that they threw out by not supplying some sort of information. If they would have been somewhat more forthcoming, saying it was a redesign with Ravening Hordes, ala 6th Ed, and that you'll still be able to play with all of your old toys, people would have kept buying knowing they were building towards something instead of nothing.

You are completely correct in saying they needed to put out more information earlier on to keep those sales moving, or at least keep them from going dormant.

I have seen people scarfing up IOB sets and related for fear that GW won't have those things around any more.
To our FLGS's credite, they actively ask people if they're aware that a new edition/whatever is coming out and those buyers have been saying they wanted to scoop up stuff before it becomes OOP, in their belief.

There's a good chance these buyers were not planning on picking up IOB/other stuff at this time but have speculatively bought in hoping to be smarter than the system.

PhantomViper wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

Boss Salvage wrote:particularly when they have bonuses built in for painting
- Salvage

Wait, there are by-the-rulebook bonuses for painted models over unpainted?

For Journeyman Leagues, yes, you have point bonuses for painted models.

Spoiler:

Players earn hobby points for painting models in the faction
they are playing within the league. These models do not have
to be used at any time during a league game. For a painted
model to score hobby points, it must meet the requirements
listed in the Painting Requirements section. Hobby points
are awarded only for models painted during the course of
this league. Models painted prior to the start of the league do
not count. Use the list below to determine how many hobby
points a given model/unit is worth.
• Warcasters, warlocks, warbeasts, warjacks, and solos:
3 points for large-based models, 2 points for mediumbased
models, and 1 point for small-based models
• Battle engines: 5 points
• Colossals and gargantuans: 7 points
• Units of two models: 2 points
• Units of three to six models: 3 points
• Units of seven or more models: 4 points
• Units of only medium-based models: 1 additional point
• Units of only large-based models: 2 additional points

Oooooh okay. I misunderstood. I thought he meant like, painted models have better in-game stats than unpainted models.

I think all the silence around this release from GW is brilliant the amount of speculation everywhere (in wargaming context) on what's next for fantasy is considerable it seems from friend and foe/friend of the game. Granted once the add to cart button appears it would be weird to have no info but until around that time this approach has been amusing to follow.

PalmerC wrote:
I think all the silence around this release from GW is brilliant the amount of speculation everywhere (in wargaming context) on what's next for fantasy is considerable it seems from friend and foe/friend of the game. Granted once the add to cart button appears it would be weird to have no info but until around that time this approach has been amusing to follow.

Its probably not very amusing if you actually care about WFB though... Projects halted, no new projects, no shopping etc are some of the actual consequences of this silence. I would be more amused if GW were transparent and actually supplied some news that allowed me to plan project or convert my WFB projects. As it stands is a sterile ground for any fun.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Its probably not very amusing if you actually care about WFB though... Projects halted, no new projects, no shopping etc are some of the actual consequences of this silence. I would be more amused if GW were transparent and actually supplied some news that allowed me to plan project or convert my WFB projects. As it stands is a sterile ground for any fun.

QFT. The bulk of my gaming club has essentially been paralyzed when it comes to all gaming or hobbying, while the tournament crew attend the last 8E events with their current armies and I dither away building skirmish squads for games I don't really play ...

This is a bad thing.

- Salvage

GW has been doing the short runways ever since CHS came in and (legally) ate their lunch. This isn't new practice.

At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it. Obsessing over what may happen isn't that healthy, anyways.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it.

WFB projects are never detached from a future perspective, armies are big and laborious to flesh out ( Years to make one), your remark makes little to no sense.

 Azreal13 wrote:
One things for sure, with a new model on the horizon the dealers wouldn't be selling the old model at full price and denying all knowledge of the new one, even if asked directly by a customer.

Yup, GW prefer to be the Louis Vuitton of wargaming and would rather destroy their old stock over selling it off.

It's like they're allergic to money or something. I'd snap up all the old whfb books if they sold them off for a fiver apiece or thereabouts.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it.

WFB projects are never detached from a future perspective, armies are big and laborious to flesh out ( Years to make one), your remark makes little to no sense.

They darn well should be. GW player should be a lot more Zen Buddhist about the game, rather than Evangelical Christian about it. GW is in the now, in the moment; GW is not about preparing for some far-off rapture. Simply focus on what's current, and go from there. Having expectations and obsessing over them is what gets you in trouble.

A standard 2,000 points army doesn't take years to get to a basic, playable state. If you want to play an army, you spend a few months and knock one out, based on the current book. Simple as that.

That said, if you end up with a large army of >2,000 points, then yes, that can take years. But it should be organic like the growth of a tree. Or, if you want to build something huge, a monument of sorts, that's also fine. But even a monument only exists in the moment, and requires ongoing maintenance.

In the context of how GW works, and your complete inability to influence it, your inability to simply accept GW is what makes zero sense.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
GW has been doing the short runways ever since CHS came in and (legally) ate their lunch. This isn't new practice.

At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it. Obsessing over what may happen isn't that healthy, anyways.

That might be easier said then done in all honesty. Materials are being discontinued and replaced at a break neck pace.

The difference for me now is that the army book/codex is the last thing I buy for an army when it used to be the first.

I would hate to buy a book, spend my time putting together an army and then to find the book was being replaced just as I was about to bring them to the table.

Of course that could happen previously if you happened to buy an army book a few months before the replacement. But the rapid recycle rate they have now will make these situations much more frequent.

It's Wood Elf players I feel sorry for. You wait years for a book, get one, and then a few months later, a new version of fantasy throws everything out the window.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's Wood Elf players I feel sorry for. You wait years for a book, get one, and then a few months later, a new version of fantasy throws everything out the window.

Its fine, I quit back in 7th when the Beastmen book came out and I got tabled turn 1.

Was going to pick up some of the recent Welfs stuff, but the new Eternal Guard models are no where near as nice as the metals.

 Lockark wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
GW has been doing the short runways ever since CHS came in and (legally) ate their lunch. This isn't new practice.

At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it. Obsessing over what may happen isn't that healthy, anyways.

That might be easier said then done in all honesty. Materials are being discontinued and replaced at a break neck pace.

Not really. An game edition lasts for multiple years. WFB has been static for ages. Codices last for years. Codices and Army Books last for years, and they aren't that expensive, so it's not a money thing. The models never really go away. It's more a question of whether you want to bother buying new rule books that aren't necessarily "better" and dealing with the changes.

The bigger change is the rapid expansion of the 40k universe, with so many armies getting updated Codices within the first year of new edition release. Following WFB 9E "AOS", with its Ravening Hordes lists, we can expect to see a flood of new 9E Army Books by the end of the year. This is all good stuff.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

They darn well should be. GW player should be a lot more Zen Buddhist about the game, rather than Evangelical Christian about it. GW is in the now, in the moment; GW is not about preparing for some far-off rapture. Simply focus on what's current, and go from there. Having expectations and obsessing over them is what gets you in trouble.

A standard 2,000 points army doesn't take years to get to a basic, playable state. If you want to play an army, you spend a few months and knock one out, based on the current book. Simple as that.

That said, if you end up with a large army of >2,000 points, then yes, that can take years. But it should be organic like the growth of a tree. Or, if you want to build something huge, a monument of sorts, that's also fine. But even a monument only exists in the moment, and requires ongoing maintenance.

In the context of how GW works, and your complete inability to influence it, your inability to simply accept GW is what makes zero sense.

I am not sure how to parse this. On the one hand, saying "The way GW operates, doing any planning ahead is foolish. Build whatever you want and don't expect it to work for any period in the future. If you don't like that, you need to use a different company for rules and maybe models," that makes perfect sense to me. GW's pace and scope of change, and random change at that, is enough to keep me out of their games due to the large amount of investment in time and money a WHFB army takes. I certainly haven't updated mine in a long time, and I suspect many other people are there too.

On the other hand, claiming that "a few months" is not a large amount of time to get an army ready to play, an amount of time large enough to be worrisome to waste in the face of effectively regime change from GW, that I can't quite understand. It is quite possible to start an WHFB, spend 2-4 months getting it painted and together, only to find that it is entirely unworkable due to a rules change, or just miserable to play. That's a really, really high cost of entry, even beyond the dollar cost, with a fairly high possibility that the cost will get you nothing within a few months. Unless you are the sort of person that loves painting models, many very similar, just for the joy of painting models, that's a pretty big thing to just write off. Most people probably can expect to spend a lot of time and effort preparing an army that may never be fun to game with.

Unless your recommendation is then "So quit GW entirely", I don't understand what your argument is.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


At this point, GW should be looked at as point in time, of X things being available. If you want X, great, do it and work on it. If not, don't sweat it.

WFB projects are never detached from a future perspective, armies are big and laborious to flesh out ( Years to make one), your remark makes little to no sense.

They darn well should be. GW player should be a lot more Zen Buddhist about the game, rather than Evangelical Christian about it. GW is in the now, in the moment; GW is not about preparing for some far-off rapture. Simply focus on what's current, and go from there. Having expectations and obsessing over them is what gets you in trouble.

A standard 2,000 points army doesn't take years to get to a basic, playable state. If you want to play an army, you spend a few months and knock one out, based on the current book. Simple as that.

That said, if you end up with a large army of >2,000 points, then yes, that can take years. But it should be organic like the growth of a tree. Or, if you want to build something huge, a monument of sorts, that's also fine. But even a monument only exists in the moment, and requires ongoing maintenance.

In the context of how GW works, and your complete inability to influence it, your inability to simply accept GW is what makes zero sense.

Thats one way to look at it if you drink into the new GW religion... or you could look into the past 20+ years of WFB and at least expect some continuity to your enjoyment. Again according to you it takes a few months to paint hundreds of minis (not for me) guess what in 3 months there is no more WFB as we know it, so your remark about living the present and care less about the future of WFB is still not very accurate. Theres also a considerable difference betweent being obsessed about something and making an INFORMED decision. Thats what we are talking about here, people want to carry on and have fun with WFB and they can only do that if they have enough data.
Just because GW wants you to not use your brains, we, according to your logic should keep on buying without any mental activity, I mean thats what you mean about ability to adjust into GW right?

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
It's Wood Elf players I feel sorry for. You wait years for a book, get one, and then a few months later, a new version of fantasy throws everything out the window.

I really feel sorry for Bretonnian players. After the WE release, there was a teaser video showing a Bretonnian peasant with something flying overhead. Then, there was rumors abound that they were finally getting a book after 10 years and countless editions of waiting. That was all followed up by 7 weeks of 40K releases and then Nagash, which blows up their most favorite land mark. Then, with each ET book, they just keep twisting the knife - killing Louen in Glottkin and then saying that the Lady in the Lake was really just an Elvish goddess that was misleading them in Archaon.

 mikhaila wrote:


And on WFB sales: Mine are totally unaffected by the announcement of AOS. My stores have barely sold WFB since the 2nd yer of 8th. Maybe 2% of 40k sales. So not selling anything is normal. Endtimes was actually a huge bump over the usual nothing.

To be fair, that may be because customers can't buy the same amount of product in stores. It seems like a lot more WFB went web store only than 40k. If I wanted to start WFB now (and not buy used models) I'd have to order on the internet. Many armies simply can't be completed by only purchasing in a B&M store.

HobbyBox wrote:

I really feel sorry for Bretonnian players. After the WE release, there was a teaser video showing a Bretonnian peasant with something flying overhead. Then, there was rumors abound that they were finally getting a book after 10 years and countless editions of waiting. That was all followed up by 7 weeks of 40K releases and then Nagash, which blows up their most favorite land mark. Then, with each ET book, they just keep twisting the knife - killing Louen in Glottkin and then saying that the Lady in the Lake was really just an Elvish goddess that was misleading them in Archaon.

I have a full Brett army that sees very little game time right now. I hope for the best with whatever WFB is turning into, but it seems the writing is on the wall for us Brett players.