Age of Sigmar - Slaanesh Replaced? plus big book, stormcast archers, dismounted celestan

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**insaniak**

streetsamurai wrote:
Wasn't it already stated that the lack of succes of INQ was in large part due to the absence of point cost? Mindboggling

Not that I ever heard. The lack of success for Inquisitor was more down to the peculiar choice of scale combined with a small available model range, and the lack of actual gaming material for what was essentially an RPG.

**timetowaste85**

Anyone think maybe Kirby is buying stock in Mantic currently? It's like he's forcing everyone to either play a crap system (like those who are so l33t they'll only play GW games) or switch to something that allows for all old GW models/armies to be used.

If Ronnie lets Kirby make any decisions though, I'm sending over an army of poo flinging monkeys to absolutely ruin his carpets.

@pretre: I emailed it to you and added it to the thread a couple days later, as I specified I would. You also copy pasted the second batch of rumors directly into the thread. I'm in the middle of a house move though, laptops still packed, and it would take forever and a day to locate and copy/paste on the phone, at the moment. But I'll copy paste it when I can.

**A Town Called Malus**

The only consolation I have in all this is that at least Warhammer: Total War will keep the Warhammer World alive, even as GW does its very best to tear it completely down.

**Mysterious Pants**

mikhaila wrote:
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....

I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system...

To start with, sorry if you're having a bad time dude.

But I'm really, really, really skeptical of this.

Having a miniature wargame without point values would be like inventing a card game that doesn't use cards, or a board game where you don't have a board. That is to say, points values is sort of the defining feature of miniature wargaming.

Maybe there's some sort of clever bit that GW has come up with that lets players determine equal-sized armies without using "points"? Or maybe you misinterpreted what the guy was saying?

I remember when the Nigmo rumor was all the rage and I said "Huh, that doesn't make sense. I bet this is just internet lunacy", and I was basically proven right.

**adamsouza**

If the entirety of Fantasy sold as well as Tactical Marines, GW might care enough to support detailed rules for them.

That, and we could staring at a hardcover $85 Warhammer Fantasy Age Of Sigmar Advanced edition a few months from now, with $58 harcover faction books, with more complicated rules and point costs.

I don't really buy the lack of point costs being a permanent thing. Literally every other tabletop miniatures battle game I can think of has some sort of army building mechanic.

**Bull0**

I guess they could partly balance it around the number of models you're allowed to take per slot... so if you're running chaos warriors the war scroll for that is 3-5 models, while the scroll for clanrats is say, 5-10...

that wouldn't help you with the big disparities between say, an empire hero and Nagash, unless that kind of thing goes into a "lord of war" or "large games only" type slot...

think that would generally require more finesse than GW have in them to be done well, though

**JohnHwangDD**

knighthaunter wrote:
zedmeister wrote:
One thing occurs to me with the whole warscrolls concept (and it's probably already been mentioned) is that this does open a much broader scope for limited edition unit releases.

"Skaven Assassins release - 10 per box - limited to 700 worldwide. Ensure that you place your orders for Skaven Assassins - Limited Edition Unit Box as soon as possible to avoid disappointment!"

This, i remember a rumor to this effect awhile back and i could really see GW wetting themselves with joy at the mere thought of getting into this sorta of model. no excess stock, they fire off a run, charge a mucho premium price and then maybe in a year or something they squirt out another batch.

It's not like GW hasn't seen success with Limited Edition rulebooks and FW scenery.

**A Town Called Malus**

Mysterious Pants wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....

I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system...

To start with, sorry if you're having a bad time dude.

But I'm really, really, really skeptical of this.

Having a miniature wargame without point values would be like inventing a card game that doesn't use cards, or a board game where you don't have a board. That is to say, points values is sort of the defining feature of miniature wargaming.

Maybe there's some sort of clever bit that GW has come up with that lets players determine equal-sized armies without using "points"? Or maybe you misinterpreted what the guy was saying?

I remember when the Nigmo rumor was all the rage and I said "Huh, that doesn't make sense. I bet this is just internet lunacy", and I was basically proven right.

So despite two different retailers being told the exact same thing and seeing it inferred in GWs own magazine it is all misinterpretation?

I'm sure Mikhaila was very careful to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting the rep, considering he called for the express purpose of clarifying that very point (the lack of any balancing system).

**Vaktathi**

With print runs of a five hundred or a thousand copies or whatnot, it's pretty hard not to sell out nigh-instantly with even a relatively small consumer base.

**insaniak**

adamsouza wrote:
I don't really buy the lack of point costs being a permanent thing. Literally every other tabletop miniatures battle game I can think of has some sort of army building mechanic.

And therein lies the problem. I don't think GW's management are seeing this as a 'tabletop miniatures battle game'.

They're seeing it as a set of rules provided so that you can play games with your toy soldiers. They're not quite sure why you would want to do that, though...

**nudibranch**

I am incredibly skeptical about this. Are you certain they were not just talking about the new boxed set? GW have made some strange moves lately, but this sounds absurd even for them.

**A Town Called Malus**

nudibranch wrote:
I am incredibly skeptical about this. Are you certain they were not just talking about the new boxed set? GW have made some strange moves lately, but this sounds absurd even for them.

The new boxed set is it. There's no big rulebook coming.

Well, unless it tanks and then I'd say there's a 50/50 chance of us either getting a different ruleset or them dropping the game entirely.

**H.B.M.C.**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Free, online, living ruleset?

This isn't the GW I know and love (to hate)! Give me back my old, stupid, GW!

Meanwhile, over in 40K Land:

"How long has this Codex been out? 5 months? Far too long! Do a new one. Up the price as well!"

**Bull0**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
Free, online, living ruleset?

This isn't the GW I know and love (to hate)! Give me back my old, stupid, GW!

Meanwhile, over in 40K Land:

"How long has this Codex been out? 5 months? Far too long! Do a new one. Up the price as well!"

Nerf whatever was good in the last book and buff whatever's not selling! Throw another baby on the fire!

**Swastakowey**

Mysterious Pants wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....

I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system...

To start with, sorry if you're having a bad time dude.

But I'm really, really, really skeptical of this.

Having a miniature wargame without point values would be like inventing a card game that doesn't use cards, or a board game where you don't have a board. That is to say, points values is sort of the defining feature of miniature wargaming.

Maybe there's some sort of clever bit that GW has come up with that lets players determine equal-sized armies without using "points"? Or maybe you misinterpreted what the guy was saying?

I remember when the Nigmo rumor was all the rage and I said "Huh, that doesn't make sense. I bet this is just internet lunacy", and I was basically proven right.

Heaps of games don't use point's costs. It depends on the game style. Some have Scenarios to play out. I doubt many of the people reenacting the battle of Waterloo anniversary this year used points values for the battle because the armies are already laid out. Same with many of the historical games.

HOWEVER in a sci fi or fantasy game without much history behind it definitely needs points to play properly. This game will probably suck. Unless of course no points is not true but I suspect they are.

GW has lowered the bar again in my opinion.

**RiTides**

mikhaila wrote:
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....

Just spent an hour and a half on the phone with GW, them trying in vain to make me understand how I can play the game, let alone how i could make someone want to buy it.

It has no points, no system to balance armies, nothing whatsoever tells the two players what they can put on the table.

Just play with what you want to play with.

I'm having trouble with the idea of two 12 year olds opening up figure cases and playing a game....let alone running a league, or a tournament.

I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system. They just kept telling me it doesn't have one, doesn't need one, the game has things that give the player with least models an advantage, or why one dragon gets killed by a unit. It was like talking with people that don't play the game. Have never played the game. Only played the scenarios in AoS.

With the vast difference in profile between models in Warhammer, it's absurd to think you can balance by model count.

And you can't balance by Warscroll, this is just multiple models which can have hugely different numbers and stats.

And you can't balance by wounds. Chaos Warrior = 1 goblin? Nagash = 10 goblins?

In fact, Nagash or a large dragon or blood thirster is aways optimal. Warscrolls =1, Model count =1, Wounds < 10.

Because of the huge difference in power of the playing pieces, nothing makes sense unless you balance by a number that reflects the value of the individual piece in the game.

AoS is essentially Unbound armies where you bring what you want. You aren't even restricted by faction, you just might have models that don't gain a bonus others might from an icon or leader.

I've actually been in tears today over what they did to WFB. I have no idea how I will sell this game in my shop other than an expensive boardgame.

I know you have a soft spot for things like Orcs & Goblins, and it does seem that they're not going to be able to be balanced... even if 30 goblins counts as a "unit", or let's say skaven slaves... in the past that would be something like 5% of the cost of a kitted out lord on dragon, instead of equal to it. There's just no way seemingly to balance those things out unless literally hundreds of models were equal to one. Since that's not feasible, why would people not just take the super models?

Looks grim... for traditional fantasy lovers at least.

**His Master's Voice**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
The new boxed set is it. There's no big rulebook coming.

I'm sorry, but retailers being told that "there is no other product coming" is not conclusive in the slightest. They've been told about AoS TODAY, five days before release. As far as GW is concerned, there is nothing coming except the product they want to sell now. It's been this way for ages.

**Mc1gamer**

Seems to be more leaks supporting NO points., Getting some reports about a bonus characteristic based on number of models, not limited by points, but by model count, and we already see one of those screen shots shows victory conditions that allows game ending scenarios based on % of your opponents army removed. Its looking like thats the mechanic. If anyone gets concrete info on this, I'm sure it'll be posted asap to confirm or refute.

**nudibranch**

His Master's Voice wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
The new boxed set is it. There's no big rulebook coming.

I'm sorry, but retailers being told that "there is no other product coming" is not conclusive in the slightest. They've been told about AoS TODAY, five days before release. As far as GW is concerned, there is nothing coming except the product they want to sell now. It's been this way for ages.

Exactly. It is incredibly rare for FLGS staff to know anything about a product before the preorder appears. They know as much as us.

**adamsouza**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Meanwhile, over in 40K Land:

"How long has this Codex been out? 5 months? Far too long! Do a new one. Up the price as well!"

I know plenty of Ork, Tryanid, and Chaos Marine players that would jump at the chance to pay $58 to get an Eldar/Space Marine level new codex.

**Breotan**

Orruks

Seriously?

**timetowaste85**

So...a game that allows 4 bloodthirsters to gain a bonus over 50 goblins...

Go home GW, you're drunk.

**lord_blackfang**

His Master's Voice wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
The new boxed set is it. There's no big rulebook coming.

I'm sorry, but retailers being told that "there is no other product coming" is not conclusive in the slightest. They've been told about AoS TODAY, five days before release. As far as GW is concerned, there is nothing coming except the product they want to sell now. It's been this way for ages.

Indeed. GW mooks have strict orders to play dumb about next morning's preorders on Friday evening. A firm "There's no big rulebook coming." from GW means "There's no big rulebook coming this week."

**A Town Called Malus**

His Master's Voice wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
The new boxed set is it. There's no big rulebook coming.

I'm sorry, but retailers being told that "there is no other product coming" is not conclusive in the slightest. They've been told about AoS TODAY, five days before release. As far as GW is concerned, there is nothing coming except the product they want to sell now. It's been this way for ages.

Do you think they'd be releasing rules for free if they were going to sell them later on?

**adamsouza**

Vaktathi wrote:
With print runs of a five hundred or a thousand copies or whatnot, it's pretty hard not to sell out nigh-instantly with even a relatively small consumer base.

It's not just that they sell out, they are profitable. GW doens't even have to keep stock that didn't move in storage, which is a win for distributors/retailers.

**Accolade**

If it's just that they're not giving mikhaila the full scoop, then that is beyond callous, leaving store owner's livelihoods up in the air because GW thinks they're Apple.

However, if there really is no balancing, and the game has become a roughshod version of "put your toys down and yell PEW PEW" then it has effectively killed the game. It's akin to watching reading a George RR Martin Got book- you sit there praying that some awful thing won't happen, and then it does...and even worse than you could have possibly imagined...

**Shigematsu**

His Master's Voice wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
The new boxed set is it. There's no big rulebook coming.

I'm sorry, but retailers being told that "there is no other product coming" is not conclusive in the slightest. They've been told about AoS TODAY, five days before release. As far as GW is concerned, there is nothing coming except the product they want to sell now. It's been this way for ages.

Doesnt surprise me considering anything further would be leaked in under 5 minutes since most people disregard NDA's.

Also does everyone who takes these photographs not know how to take a clear photograph from head on, it isnt rocket science. This seems to have been the case as far as I can remember.

**adamsouza**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Do you think they'd be releasing rules for free if they were going to sell them later on?

Yes. They are only giving us a 4 page PDF of rules, and army stats for existing models to get you interested enough in playing, so that when the Hardcover Rulebook comes along your already invested enough in the game to want to buy the rulebook..

It worked well for Manitc's KoW. The whole game is available for free in PDF form, but most players gladly buy the rulebook after they have a few games under their belt.
INFINITY did this as well to.

**A Town Called Malus**

Accolade wrote:
If it's just that they're not giving mikhaila the full scoop, then that is so beyond callous, leaving store owner's livelihoods up in the air because GW thinks they're Apple.

If there really is no balancing, and the game has become a roughshod version of "put your toys down and yell PEW PEW" then that's akin to watching reading a George RR Martin Got book- you sit there praying that some awful thing won't happen, and then it does...and even worse than you could have possibly imagined...

Difference is that the characters in GoT often die as a result of their own, often stupid, actions. Warhammer Fantasy dies because of the stupid actions of the person who killed it.

**nudibranch**

I will say, if the no points costs thing is true, I'm glad I'm mostly just a hobbyist now...