Age of Sigmar - Slaanesh Replaced? plus big book, stormcast archers, dismounted celestan

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**Torga_DW**

mikhaila wrote:
I and other retailers are spending a lot of time on the phone with GW today.

First getting the basic info on the game, how it plays, etc. Then being told the incentives GW is giving us to carry the game, and take a big load of them. I ordered the 80 copies they wanted to me to get, so did a nearby store. That's 10,000.00 of product, 5500.00 our cost, non - returnable. A large commitment to the game.

Then we hear about no points values. We realize we don't know how to run tournaments, or leagues, or even tell two 12 year olds how to start a game.

"Just put out what models you want to play with"

And we've all argued with sales reps and people in management, and the message is all the same: No points, this is the rules, this is it, nothing else.

Maybe they are lying about something else on the way? I can't hold out hope for that. Not on 5500.00 and all the time and effort to commit to painting demo armies, training staff, and organizing events. At the expense of doing the same for other games. So many of us will drastically cut orders down to pre-paid pre orders and a copy for the shelf. If they do have more coming, well, i'll wait until i see it.

Sorry to hear that, and for the stress it must be causing. If ever i was a gw 'hater', it's for the dick moves they pull on their independent retailers and fans. Hoping you get it sorted, good luck.

**agnosto**

I'll still buy the sigmar guys as a 40K project.

**StormKing**

agnosto wrote:
I'll still buy the sigmar guys as a 40K project.

I think that's what they were going for when they designed them I bet

**Boss Salvage**

chiefbigredman wrote:
If its not what I want I will be ordering all the 8th edition army books off eBay or retailers who still have it so I can have all the armies if I so wish before it is difficult to get the books

Just tossing this out there: all of the books are available for download in the wilds of the Internet, in various levels of quality. Or so I've heard tell. Though I can appreciate you wanting the physical books out of personal use preference, a sense of completeness, an aching nostalgia, or so on.

- Salvage

**H.B.M.C.**

How would a game without points values (or any sort of balance-based limitation) work?

If you can literally bring whatever you want, why not just bring so much stuff that you overwhelm your opponent's army? If there are arbirary limitations (10 Warscrolls), what's to stop you from taking 10 of the best unit of the game?

This does not work.

**Kolbalt266**

Here are some of the rules, I guess someone does not know how to keep a camera strait, :(

http://plastickrak.blogspot.co.nz/2015/06/the-damn-broke-age-of-sigmar-rules-leak.html

**Relapse**

This thread Makes me glad I got out of Warhammer. I'm bummed what was once a great game has come to this.

**insaniak**

Those are the same pictures that have already been posted several times now.

**rybackstun**

Fairly interested in seeing how this pans out.

I have a Tomb King force that I never got to actually play Fantasy with, but with the game sixes possibly being smaller that would make the size army I have perfect for this game.

**Smuttbudgie**

Im really not sure what to make of this, Most of it was sounding good to me upp until the part about no points, just makes no sense in my head even though i only play games against my brother mainly once in a blue moon id have no idea how we could make a game fair even though we like more fun games.

**Dr. Delorean**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How would a game without points values (or any sort of balance-based limitation) work?

If you can literally bring whatever you want, why not just bring so much stuff that you overwhelm your opponent's army? If there are arbirary limitations (10 Warscrolls), what's to stop you from taking 10 of the best unit of the game?

This does not work.

I don't think the forces will have no structure whatsoever.

Units will be classified according to battlefield role, but the size of those units will be fixed to their specific Warscroll.

FOR EXAMPLE:

'Chaos Warriors Warscroll'
- 5 chaos warriors
- Core Warscroll

'Goblin Bastards Warscroll'
- 20 goblin bastards
- Core Warscroll.

'Exalted Hero of Chaos Warscroll'
- 1 Chaos Hero Guy
- Hero Warscroll

'He-Man on Lizard Thingo Warscroll'
- 1 He-Man riding a cool drake thing
- Hero Warscroll

'Chosen of Khorne Warscroll
- 5 Chosen of Khorne
- Special Warscroll

And so on and so forth.

So instead of saying to a person "Hey, do you want a 2000pt Fantasy game?" You'll say "Hey, do you want an Age of Sigmar game? 1 Hero, 2 Core, 1 Special?

Essentially the unit-size balance will be written into the scroll, 5 chaos warriors are roughly the equivalent of 20 goblins, after all.

In fact, there'll probably be a semi-standard 'Fantasy Force Organisation Chart', consisting of 1 hero, 1-3 Core, 1 special, and 1 rare, or something along those lines.

**MLaw**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How would a game without points values (or any sort of balance-based limitation) work?

If you can literally bring whatever you want, why not just bring so much stuff that you overwhelm your opponent's army? If there are arbirary limitations (10 Warscrolls), what's to stop you from taking 10 of the best unit of the game?

This does not work.

That's not typically how they work. Normally, the scenario dictates what you can bring and typically systems like this don't really have wargear or individualized equipment. So all of those game-breaking combos would probably be generalized down into something that analogs across different armies. They may opt to have a chart that you can pick weapons from to get a specific type of loadout (like your lord is allowed to pick if he's ranged, great weapon, etc).. I dunno. there are ways to do that but who knows what direction they went.

**Nocturnus**

While WFB badly needed a reboot, I can't believe this is the path they chose. I like the free rules idea. I like that the old stuff is still viable. But no point costs? How the hell does that work? And people bitch about unbound armies in 40K....

**H.B.M.C.**

But with a "bring and battle" game, you need structure. This game doesn't appear to have any, and things without structure are very difficult to control/hold onto.

I mean look at the way this is worded:

"Armies can be as big as you like, you can use as many models from your collection as you wish."

That is slowed!
(feth you, word filter)

And there's a random terrain chart!!!???!!! I'm not friends with this game any more...

**StormKing**

Boss Salvage wrote:
chiefbigredman wrote:
If its not what I want I will be ordering all the 8th edition army books off eBay or retailers who still have it so I can have all the armies if I so wish before it is difficult to get the books
Just tossing this out there: all of the books are available for download in the wilds of the Internet, in various levels of quality. Or so I've heard tell. Though I can appreciate you wanting the physical books out of personal use preference, a sense of completeness, an aching nostalgia, or so on.

- Salvage

I know I could PDF them but I like the physical books, its not the same reading it on my phone or computer. It is easier for me and much nicer to have the actual copy

**Dr. Delorean**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
But with a "bring and battle" game, you need structure. This game doesn't appear to have any, and things without structure are very difficult to control/hold onto.

I mean look at the way this is worded:

"Armies can be as big as you like, you can use as many models from your collection as you wish."

That is slowed!
(feth you, word filter)

And there's a random terrain chart!!!???!!! I'm not friends with this game any more...

That statement about armies being as big as you like is likely targeted at those concerned that they could no longer conduct mass-battles with the rules, it's to say that they can still use their large collections in the new game. It's not trying to say that every game will have absolutely no limits on how many models it includes.

The random terrain chart, just like the one in 8th, is likely optional. And even if it isn't (that is, they don't offer an alternative way of setting up the board), why not just set up the board in a mutually-agreeable fashion? The way my group has been doing for the past...forever?

**Aerethan**

The last 48 hours have really put the last nails in the WFB coffin.

And it's basically killed the option of selling off old models, as the only buyers now will be people still clutching on to 7th or 8th edition locally.

**Kid_Kyoto**

Sad to hear that I was actually an optimist...

Roll 2d6 for movement
If you hit an enemy roll 2d6 and add your Cool Rating
Winner lives, loser dies!

Roll for next model...

**adamsouza**

Dr. Delorean wrote:

So instead of saying to a person "Hey, do you want a 2000pt Fantasy game?" You'll say "Hey, do you want an Age of Sigmar game? 1 Hero, 2 Core, 1 Special?

Essentially the unit-size balance will be written into the scroll, 5 chaos warriors are roughly the equivalent of 20 goblins, after all.

In fact, there'll probably be a semi-standard 'Fantasy Force Organisation Chart', consisting of 1 hero, 1-3 Core, 1 special, and 1 rare, or something along those lines.

This seems reasonable. I'd look forward to playing like that.

**Nocturnus**

Mysterious Pants wrote:
mikhaila wrote:
OK,....this sucks so hard....I'm having trouble typing, hands shaking....

I argued and asked for any reason they didn't have a points system...

To start with, sorry if you're having a bad time dude.

But I'm really, really, really skeptical of this.

Having a miniature wargame without point values would be like inventing a card game that doesn't use cards, or a board game where you don't have a board. That is to say, points values is sort of the defining feature of miniature wargaming.

Maybe there's some sort of clever bit that GW has come up with that lets players determine equal-sized armies without using "points"? Or maybe you misinterpreted what the guy was saying?

I remember when the Nigmo rumor was all the rage and I said "Huh, that doesn't make sense. I bet this is just internet lunacy", and I was basically proven right.

There are miniature games that don't have a points system. Tomorrow's War and Force on Force are two off the top of my head. They are fun to play. I think the problem is that anything GW makes. people want to use it for tournament play. I don't have an issue with that, but GW has been actively moving away from organized play for years. Maybe this is their solution?

**StormKing**

Someone posted up a picture of a spray can and 3 lots of paint and people sort of skipped over that but seems like that is actually the case.
Here is the leaked prices and stuff for this week (US and Canadaian prices)

**AegisGrimm**

I don;t understand the craziness. Balancing types of Warscrolls against each other is the same as using points, really. A 5-man unit of 10pt models is supposed to be balanced against a 2-man unit of 25pt models. That's the entire freaking basis of a points-based system!

50pts is 50pts.

The problem is that to have everything equal out warscroll vs. warscroll, you have to remove all customization and only take what is doled out by GW as a choice. You want a Chaos Lord? It has to be one of the choices that come with different stock gear/abilities, rather than being kitted out by the player. Which is boring.

It'd be exactly like in X-wing, fielding a basic Y-Wing against a Interceptor of the same points, or making 100pt lists of ships only with no upgrades. It's perfectly possible and technically balanced, but the upgrade cards are where the player choice really comes into play.

**Vash108**

Sorry double posted on phone.

**Jehan-reznor**

agnosto wrote:I'll still buy the sigmar guys as a 40K project.

That will give the wrong signal to GW, see it sells this is the way to go!

chiefbigredman wrote:Someone posted up a picture of a spray can and 3 lots of paint and people sort of skipped over that but seems like that is actually the case.
Here is the leaked prices and stuff for this week (US and Canadaian prices)

Spoiler:

Are the last columns the prices in Pounds and Dollars?

**H.B.M.C.**

Dr. Delorean wrote:
So instead of saying to a person "Hey, do you want a 2000pt Fantasy game?" You'll say "Hey, do you want an Age of Sigmar game? 1 Hero, 2 Core, 1 Special?

Where are you getting these specific types (core, hero, special, etc.). What part of the leaked rules are they from, 'cause I've not really read them through completely.

**agnosto**

He's making wild assumptions based on nothing but blind optimism.

**AegisGrimm**

Well, one would assume that would be what you would have to do to have balanced battlescrolls if points are not involved- to restrict entire armies of 5 bloodthirsters. Just have army slots like 40K and Warhammer has had for years. Techincally there are points involved, just only GW would know the formula.

Though that is giving even basic credit to GW's games development, which is dubious at best.

I can't see any other way to balance things without points if you are not going the scenario route like Tomorrow's War.

**agnosto**

And not supported by what we've seen of all 4 pages of the rules...

**Dr. Delorean**

agnosto wrote:
He's making wild assumptions based on nothing but blind optimism.

'Assumption' implies that I believe these things to be true, when what I'm actually doing is positing a scenario that may come to be, whether it is likely or not.

But you don't really care about that, do you? You just want to be salty on the internet.

**AegisGrimm**

It'd sure be a thing to see if there isn't, I can't think of a tabletop game like 40K/Warhammer (not counting games designed like Tomorrow's War) that doesn't have slots, or detachments, etc. Even with points involved too. Dropzone Commander, Epic, whatever.

It may end up being the mother of all GW hand-waving.