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2015/07/03 05:10:49
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Gothic Class battleships look amazing too, and you're not going to field them in 40k.
It's a really cool picture, but I don't think it does the job of telling us a story about the Age of Sigmar. Can these guys actually fight something that big? If so, why are they fighting dudes with two hand axes. It's an awesome pic, but the fact that things that you can't field in the game look really, really cool doesn't get me hugely excited about the game. If anything, it gets me worried that the game is perhaps focused on the wrong elements in the conflict. If beasties that immense are roaming about, who gives a rat's rear end about a River Troll anymore?
You must be the only person who wants artwork of just the miniatures. That is the plague of modern GW corporate commissioned art and it seems they are making amends here with this epic piece.
People have speculated it is Sigmar himself fighting Khorne in the flesh.
Just looking at that painting has me inspired about the new fluff in ways the stories have not yet been able to do.
Bye bye Dakkadakka, happy hobbying! I really enjoyed my time on here. Opinions were always my own :-)
2015/07/03 05:11:00
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
As 40k art is slipping more and more into "Only pictures of the models we make as they appear" I am glad to see something like that appear in AoS.
BlaxicanX wrote: A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.
2015/07/03 05:14:54
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Isn't this boxset is just essentially an introduction set? As in designed for complete newbies to the hobby - very streamlined rules, no need to worry about army building (hence why there is no points listed anywhere, you just use the models in the box) and some narrative scenarios to help you structure a game on the tabletop.
While I think GW are doing an absolutely terrible job of selling this new system (their mindset of absolute secrecy until the day it drops is ridiculous in this day and age), I highly doubt this is the be all and end all of the new Warhammer game.
2015/07/03 05:15:14
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Yodhrin wrote: If GW agree with you that this is a clever idea, they're in for a rude awakening. If this mystical group of newbie players who will form this new "revenue stream" aren't going to be existing players or even existing wargamers, they're going to be young, and that means they're going to expect the scenarios to be either free or filthy, back-alley, dirt cheap. That's not a slight on the younger generation, it's just the trend in gaming at the moment, and no matter how much GW wishes it were so they do not exist in a vacuum, so they will be subject to those trends whether they like it or not.
If they are pursuing the strategy you envision, there is no way in hell the scenarios will be free, or cheap, so GW can look forward to running headlong into another youth gaming trend at the moment; rampant piracy(again, not a "gerroff my lawn!" negative commentary, it's just easier to do and more well-known now than it was when I was younger). Every codex & armybook, every BL novel & novella & e-short, every WD and Visions - literally everything GW publish right now pops up on torrent sites within a couple of weeks of release, so why would these potentially monetised scenarios be any different?
I think you are right. I'm not sure this will work, esp. not in the long run. I think they will tie scenarios tightly to new models (harder to rip off for the time being; 3D printers will be the death of this business). But as WHFB didn't sell enough as it was, I guess it was either (i) ditch it all together or (ii) try a new approach, They went for the latter, we'll see how it works.
For my part, personally, I like simple rules. And – oh, heresy! – I would like a similar approach for 40k, since the new Sigmar fluff really doesn't appeal to me.
2015/07/03 05:16:39
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
pinkmarine wrote: My point was exactly that not providing a balancing system (eg points) makes it easier for GW to sell more scenarios.
How does not having a points system make it easier to sell scenarios?
For the customer, if the scenario specifies the models you use then whether or not they have points costs makes absolutely no difference.
For the designer, however... not having points costs would seem to just make it harder to put together balanced scenarios.
It makes it easier to sell scenarios because the effort of putting together your own scenario is larger. Again, think casual/for fun player with little or no previous wargaming experience. If you can "teach" that player that "scenario and campaign play is the way this is done" and that "scenarios is something you buy", then you may generate a revenue stream.
And to a company, customers are revenue streams. Nothing more, nothing less.
Of course the gaming community will dislike this and even try to do something about it (eg creating points systems). But the existing player base is likely not very interesting to GW. They need to create a new revenue stream. In fact, if the existing WHFB players move to 40k, no loss. Same revenue, different product. (If they go to non-GW, well, still no loss really because the revenue was not big enough anyway.) All of you sitting with huge fantasy armies you want to use – you are not the solution, you are the problem. They need to sell things. Creating a new rule book that sells one copy/player is not enough. Creating a system where you pull in new players with free rules and a reasonably priced starter set, get them hooked and normalize scenario play? It could work. Perhaps. We'll see.
Do I like this? Do I endorse it? No. But I'm not trying to write how I think it should be, I'm trying to figure out what and why.
I think the problem people have with this line of reasoning (and a lot of GW's reasoning) is that it doesn't take *that much* more effort to drastically expand the potential for the game by using points values and a decent, playtested set of rules. You can have exactly the same style of scenario-based play, everything that you're suggesting, but ALSO allow people to quickly build fair matches without the scenario.
I think Fantasy needed SOMETHING like this. 8th Ed WHFB is simply too bloated and too expensive to be a viable product. AOS has the potential to really be a true skirmish competitor game which requires <25 models, <$100, <60 minutes to play; that's what it needs to be to compete against X-Wing and Warmachine and Infinity. Yet some of the decisions seem to be completely wrong: completely killing off the Warhammer World to make way for a totally new game: its destroying valuable IP that they've spent decades building, and going to piss off far more potential customers than it attracts. Making it a purely scenario based game: again, there's an entire market of people who want points systems that you could target AS WELL AS the scenario-focussed players for almost no extra effort, so why not do it? Its just baffling.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 05:23:42
2015/07/03 05:18:28
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
pinkmarine wrote: It makes it easier to sell scenarios because the effort of putting together your own scenario is larger. Again, think casual/for fun player with little or no previous wargaming experience. If you can "teach" that player that "scenario and campaign play is the way this is done" and that "scenarios is something you buy", then you may generate a revenue stream.
And to a company, customers are revenue streams. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's entirely possible that you are right. However, the alternate theory is that Games Workshop doesn't really care about a competitive or tournament scene, and instead philosophically wants a game that caters to the type of "narrative" player that will buy models, maybe 20 or so at a time, in order to play through campaigns or player-structured games..
It's not a better game, or a worse game, it's a different game. Possibly fantastic for a regular group that treats miniature wargames like RPGs, and possibly lousy for pickup games. They're targetting the friends who will say, "Wouldn't it be cool to run through the Gates of Chaos Campaign? Yeah? Well, let's figure out the models we need and start next week." Or, the ones who will play a game, go "crap, I got stomped, why don't you take out your Chaos Sorcerer and see if I get closer?"
Maybe these groups exist in plentiful numbers, and maybe they don't. I have no idea. Frankly, I think that the demographic of Dakka is more competitive than most -- that is, interested in building the perfect list that will win the highest ratio of games. Personally, I used to be very much this type of player, but over the decades, I've become much more interested in playing models that are cool, armies that work kind of the way their fluff intends, and running more planned games/challenges.
For Age of Sigmar as a game, I'll reserve judgement on the mechanics and fun-factor until I actually play it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trasvi wrote: I think the problem people have with this line of reasoning (and a lot of GW's reasoning) is that it doesn't take *that much* more effort to drastically expand the potential for the game by using points values and a decent, playtested set of rules. You can have exactly the same style of scenario-based play, everything that you're suggesting, but ALSO allow people to quickly build fair matches without the scenario.
I don't disagree with you that it wouldn't take much to make both camps happy. Hey, I'm all for it. However, GW seems to have a philosophical beef with the competitive thing. I really don't think it's a financial decision. It's almost like, the designers say, "Oh, you're one of those people who want to create min/max lists? Well you CAN'T in this game. HA."
But what do I know?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 05:23:54
2015/07/03 05:24:33
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I don't disagree with you that it wouldn't take much to make both camps happy. Hey, I'm all for it. However, GW seems to have a philosophical beef with the competitive thing. I really don't think it's a financial decision. It's almost like, the designers say, "Oh, you're one of those people who want to create min/max lists? Well you CAN'T in this game. HA."
But what do I know?
I agree with you in theory, but in practice this seems to make min/max even more of a thing. Which is kinda, idk sad? Amusing?
2015/07/03 05:29:25
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Coyote81 wrote: Has anyone seen the back of these supposed data sheets? not just the scans of white dwarf, but the real ones? What would the point be of making these warscrolls and not using both sides?
My guess is that their are points on the back. Noone has seen them yet.
Except for retailers who got their demo copies already. Busy tonite putting models together.
NO FETHING POINTS ANYWHERE.
Trust me, if it turns out that lots of people at GW US HQ are lying to me, and there is a big rule book, with in depth rules, and points....Wow, i'll be overjoyed. Might not even rip off their balls for lying to me.
But right now, I've got people I've known 20 years telling me "No points, designed that way".
Come Saturday, we'll all know everything. War scrolls and whatever else will be up.
GoonBandito wrote: Isn't this boxset is just essentially an introduction set? As in designed for complete newbies to the hobby - very streamlined rules, no need to worry about army building (hence why there is no points listed anywhere, you just use the models in the box) and some narrative scenarios to help you structure a game on the tabletop.
While I think GW are doing an absolutely terrible job of selling this new system (their mindset of absolute secrecy until the day it drops is ridiculous in this day and age), I highly doubt this is the be all and end all of the new Warhammer game.
Reasonable possibility.
Thread Slayer
2015/07/03 05:35:13
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I guess they chose Sigmar as the poster boy for this is because for the rules to make sense, you need to get hammered first. There's "beer" in "beer and pretzels", after all.
2015/07/03 05:36:01
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Sigmar flies around the 'mortal realms' for thousands of years making friends with gods, peoples, heroes.
Chaos gets bored, comes back.
Sigmar gets his ass kicked hard. Sees this isn't going well. Deserts new friends, leaves, locks his door, and stays in hiding for hundreds of years.
Sigmar hammers out an army of space mar...I mean HEROES!
Realizing he always sucked at WFB, Sigmar has GW right new rules so he can play the game.
The Age of Sigmar has begun!!!
Fluff is a bit lacking, but the pictures are awesome.
....and lo!.....The Age of Sigmar came to an end when Saint Veetock and his hamster legions smote the false Sigmar and destroyed the bubbleverse and lead the true believers back to the Old World.
2015/07/03 05:40:58
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Sigmar flies around the 'mortal realms' for thousands of years making friends with gods, peoples, heroes.
Chaos gets bored, comes back.
Sigmar gets his ass kicked hard. Sees this isn't going well. Deserts new friends, leaves, locks his door, and stays in hiding for hundreds of years.
Sigmar hammers out an army of space mar...I mean HEROES!
Realizing he always sucked at WFB, Sigmar has GW right new rules so he can play the game.
The Age of Sigmar has begun!!!
Fluff is a bit lacking, but the pictures are awesome.
Wait is that for real?
I haven't been updated with the End Times but does that mean all the old school heroes and characters are all dead? How are you gonna use them in AoS if they're dead in the fluff?
2015/07/03 05:55:46
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Marius Leitdorf was dead in the fluff but the Empire could still use him.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
2015/07/03 05:57:52
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
I see the sanguinary guard are making a fantasy appearance.
I cant even tell what is what anymore, this could easily be 40k at a glance, all of their stuff is looking more and more the same - not a good thing.
My hunch is they are not interested in making generic fantasy minis anymore because that IP cant be protected so therefor everything will continue to look more and more stupid (because it is easier to protect that way). I think this is a nail in the coffin for GW.
2015/07/03 05:58:43
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Possibly fantastic for a regular group that treats miniature wargames like RPGs, and possibly lousy for pickup games. They're targetting the friends who will say, "Wouldn't it be cool to run through the Gates of Chaos Campaign? Yeah? Well, let's figure out the models we need and start next week." Or, the ones who will play a game, go "crap, I got stomped, why don't you take out your Chaos Sorcerer and see if I get closer?"
This is the target audience I think they're after. As you say (and I said) only the future will tell whether this group of people exists or not, or is large enough, or enough interested in paying.
Trasvi wrote: I think the problem people have with this line of reasoning (and a lot of GW's reasoning) is that it doesn't take *that much* more effort to drastically expand the potential for the game by using points values and a decent, playtested set of rules. You can have exactly the same style of scenario-based play, everything that you're suggesting, but ALSO allow people to quickly build fair matches without the scenario.
No, the effort wouldn't be great. But (and I'm speculating of course): By not providing a DIY option they can avoid too much home-brewed campaigning and thereby get more people to buy stuff.
Let's say they put out 4-page scenario modules with two scenario-relevant characters, step by step creating a story. "Oh just 7 bucks, let's split one and play Sunday." The sort of cliff hanger strategy that has worked in tv-shows ands comics since the dawn of time. (Sort of )
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 06:00:41
2015/07/03 06:00:58
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
oh and those winged guys proped up by their scrolls
hasn't this been done enough? on astorath it looks good. on these the execution is abysmal. It looks like something scibor would make - not a good thing.
2015/07/03 06:17:39
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Well...er...Suck it up soldier, sucky names are here to stay it seems. Hopefully the proof of the pudding will be in the eating rather than the rubbish name of said pudding.
Milhaila. Have you had a game yet? Does it play well?
How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website "
2015/07/03 06:28:33
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Sigmar flies around the 'mortal realms' for thousands of years making friends with gods, peoples, heroes.
Chaos gets bored, comes back.
Sigmar gets his ass kicked hard. Sees this isn't going well. Deserts new friends, leaves, locks his door, and stays in hiding for hundreds of years.
Sigmar hammers out an army of space mar...I mean HEROES!
Realizing he always sucked at WFB, Sigmar has GW right new rules so he can play the game.
The Age of Sigmar has begun!!!
Fluff is a bit lacking, but the pictures are awesome.
Wait is that for real?
I haven't been updated with the End Times but does that mean all the old school heroes and characters are all dead? How are you gonna use them in AoS if they're dead in the fluff?
No, the world just blew up and shattered into 7 realms or some such. All the important people (aka models are still in production) miraculously survived (?). But then again, they're heroic right?. Of course many of the unnamed the masses died, but they were just redshirts; the ones that survived decided to call themselves something different and trademarkable. I have the WD, but haven't yet read it (there are, however, drool marks on every page with pictures, which is just about every page other than the 4-page rules pullout).
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a totally different topic. Have the people who've picked up WD75 noticed that the Stormcast Eternal has the faintest mold lines GW's ever produced? The ones on the legs are so, so very faint, and some of the ones across the helm I could barely see.
Plus, there was not one annoying mold line to remove. The only remediation necessary on the model for me was to fill in the shoulder pads. Like the dark eldar models, the upper torso has a front and back shoulder pad, and where they meet, it's unseemly. And of course, the ridges on the pauldrons are very,very close, but impossible to be perfect (being 2 pieces), so if you're anal, you gotta fix that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 06:32:05
2015/07/03 07:00:05
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
On a totally different topic. Have the people who've picked up WD75 noticed that the Stormcast Eternal has the faintest mold lines GW's ever produced? The ones on the legs are so, so very faint, and some of the ones across the helm I could barely see.
Plus, there was not one annoying mold line to remove. The only remediation necessary on the model for me was to fill in the shoulder pads. Like the dark eldar models, the upper torso has a front and back shoulder pad, and where they meet, it's unseemly. And of course, the ridges on the pauldrons are very,very close, but impossible to be perfect (being 2 pieces), so if you're anal, you gotta fix that.
I don't have the White Dwarf, but most/nearly all new GW models are amazing. I put together one of the new Bloodthirsters and you'd need a microscope to find mould lines there. Not to mention how all the parts fit perfectly together. The torso is build out of 5 or 6 pieces, but it slots together without a single gap. The wings even held fast without glue, when I put them in to see where they go.
GW models really made another huge jump over the last year or so. Even the 2013 new Tac-Marines look like mediocre 3rd party knock-offs by comparison with their "huge" mould-lines.
Now, if only GW rules were only 1/10th the quality of their toys.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/03 07:02:31
2015/07/03 07:11:17
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
My FLGS, The NWGC, are having a few intro games after the Toy Soldier tournament on Saturday evening. I'll try and get along.
I was really optimistic about it all, but the more I read - crikey.
I don't have as much invested in WHFB either financially or emotionally, as a number of members so I think i should apologise for being flippant regarding the new direction. I imagine I'd have a similar reaction if Canon decided to change their lens mounts one day. Or, heaven forbid, Brewdog changed the recipe for Punk IPA!
Also apologies for mincing off in a huff a hundred pages or so ago. Immature behavior unfitting of a grown assed man, that was rightfully brought to my attention.
I've had a Snickers, and I feel better.
So, Darklands or KoW?!
Member of the "Awesome Wargaming Dudes"
2015/07/03 07:42:26
Subject: Re:Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
Gothic Class battleships look amazing too, and you're not going to field them in 40k.
It's a really cool picture, but I don't think it does the job of telling us a story about the Age of Sigmar. Can these guys actually fight something that big? If so, why are they fighting dudes with two hand axes. It's an awesome pic, but the fact that things that you can't field in the game look really, really cool doesn't get me hugely excited about the game. If anything, it gets me worried that the game is perhaps focused on the wrong elements in the conflict. If beasties that immense are roaming about, who gives a rat's rear end about a River Troll anymore?
You must be the only person who wants artwork of just the miniatures. That is the plague of modern GW corporate commissioned art and it seems they are making amends here with this epic piece.
People have speculated it is Sigmar himself fighting Khorne in the flesh.
Just looking at that painting has me inspired about the new fluff in ways the stories have not yet been able to do.
Gothic Class battleships look amazing too, and you're not going to field them in 40k.
It's a really cool picture, but I don't think it does the job of telling us a story about the Age of Sigmar. Can these guys actually fight something that big? If so, why are they fighting dudes with two hand axes. It's an awesome pic, but the fact that things that you can't field in the game look really, really cool doesn't get me hugely excited about the game. If anything, it gets me worried that the game is perhaps focused on the wrong elements in the conflict. If beasties that immense are roaming about, who gives a rat's rear end about a River Troll anymore?
Isn't Angrath the Unbound kinda that big compared to a Space Marine? I figured the minotaur-ish look meant it was just a really really big bloodthirster or something, especially given that the first scenario is those angel guys vs Khorne. Also, that beast doesn't even look physical to me. It looks like it's a tornado in the shape of a minotaur, which again would either mean it's a daemon (who aren't always corporeal) or possibly Khorne himself just observing things (both Khorne and Nurgle have been depicted as in the background towering over everything else as they observe, with Khorne having a vague wind-ish look sort of like that beast in this artwork).
There's another Warhammer Fantasy art of a Keeper of Secrets that's almost that big climbing up a tower to eat a bunch of spearmen (who are valiantly actually getting ready to stab the thing despite how HUGE it is compared to them. Now that takes balls. The art is from the spearmens' perspective). I was under the general impression that some greater demons simply manage to get that big, myself.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/03 07:47:45
2015/07/03 07:44:29
Subject: Age of Sigmar 4th July WD leak and new names pg 1
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