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 TheKbob wrote:
What's their equivalent to MEHTAL BAWKSES?

ARMUHED GRIFINS, of course.

Not sure if this was seen yet, but if this is true THANK GOD.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/new-age-of-sigmar-rulebook-prices.html


New Age of Sigmar "other book" replacing old WHFB BRB SKU.

EDIT: Okay the bols link wasn't, but someone got a screen cap of essentially the same thing.


For the love all that is holy, please be an expanded rule book. I'm a fan of the warscrolls (mostly, lulz stuff aside), some of the forces have an elegance and nuance to them that i was happily surprised with given the overall streamlined nature of the game. All that we need now is a real core ruleset rather than the hogslop the box set served up, and i think this could be a pretty good game.

 Talys wrote:
We're not balancing archers, chariots, and spearmen here. There are hundreds units, many with special (magical) abilities that might individually be balanced, but when applied as force multipliers to each other are extremely difficult to balance. For example, Librarians? Cool. Centurions? Cool. Take both? They are worth WAY more than the two units separately, because one can make the other nigh invincible.

The one thing worse than not putting out points for everything is to have points that aren't balanced -- as Manchu puts it, finely tuned balance such that people can pick anything from a vast menu, and as long as it adds up to X points, the battle forces have some kind of chance to win. You know the competitive crowd is going to go nuts looking for those wombo combos to win tournaments. Every competitive player's heart aches for the next rule that can be badly abused.

I don't disagree that the situation GW are currently in with far too many units with unquie rules added to sell new kits. So many different rules makes it much harder than it should be to sort out balance but it is addressable, and it is much easier than is being made out if they just paired everything back to the bone then carefully built from there. The game boils down to rock, paper, sissors with a few more options but everything within a particular tree, e.g., assault unit, should be points costed against every other assault unit using a standardised formula based on the core stats of M, S, T, Sv, A, WS, BS, W.

Force multiplers such as librarians should be costed as such and each army needs access to such a unit, they become self balancing if they are costed appropriately, it should not be like GW doesn't understand that casting invisability on a high T unit doesn't make it almost impossible to kill. Understanding X * Y = Z for a range of values for X and Y is the job of a spreadsheet, its straightforward modelling. Mathhammer is a basic list building tool that even I can use.

Combos will slip through the net as will incorrect costing, everybody makes mistakes, the problem comes when GW refuses or doesn't care to fix the balance issue with a FAQ and seemingly hasn't for a long time now. Predefined army selections such as formations are a lazy way to implement balance and I do not think they are GW's primary aim here, some of the GW online store exclusive 40k formations have been the most OOT so far and unsurprisingly been tied to big bundles of plastic.

 filbert wrote:
A $40 dice shaker? Good grief...

A dice tower for that price wouldn't be too bad, if it was designed to look good as a terrain piece in its own right.

 Haight wrote:
Not sure if this was seen yet, but if this is true THANK GOD.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/new-age-of-sigmar-rulebook-prices.html


New Age of Sigmar "other book" replacing old WHFB BRB SKU.

EDIT: Okay the bols link wasn't, but someone got a screen cap of essentially the same thing.


For the love all that is holy, please be an expanded rule book. I'm a fan of the warscrolls (mostly, lulz stuff aside), some of the forces have an elegance and nuance to them that i was happily surprised with given the overall streamlined nature of the game. All that we need now is a real core ruleset rather than the hogslop the box set served up, and i think this could be a pretty good game.

Apparently it's just a fancy version of the book that comes in the AoS box sorry.

 Manchu wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Products have universaly agreed inherent quality requirements.

Universally agreed? When did we all agree as to what constitutes a quality war game? Did your country legislate some regulations about this or something? I don't think they were adopted in the UK or US.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Not to mention that ignoring a feedback from large portion of your active consumers (competitive gamers) is one of the worst quality management crimes you can commit.

I'm not sure you can demonstrate GW ignores competitive gamers just because it has not chosen to make a rule set that faciliates tournament-style play. A company can learn not to do things, after all.

My competitive players mostly all quit playing fantasy, and never come into the shop for pick up games. The only time they play is to "practice" for a tournament with a specific list over and over, mostly proxying models until they get it right, and then not worrying about fantasy until the next tournament they want to go to. WFB sits on the wall gathering dust this last two yeas.

With Age of Simar i've been very surprised to already have players just wandering in and playing games again, using the free rules online and telling me how much they like the game. Most of the people coming in haven't playe WFB in years.

Not willing to say GW did something right just yet.....we'll see how the launch of the starter box goes and where we are at in a month. I made 4 army lists for AoS. Like the players coming into my shop I've got an itch to play with my armies and now have people to play with while at work

Got bored last night, started working on algorithms and classifications for a points system......

You know, I'd have a much easier time buying this "Oh no, no, GW only care about kewl models brah, and forgin' dat narrative yeah" shtick folk are peddling if GW hadn't spent the last 15 years slowly strangling and then mercilessly killing off its line of Specialist Games which were almost all primarily about cool models and narrative gaming.

As my Grandad would say; Ehhh, naw, I dinnae 'hink sae pal.

GW don't give a gak about narrative gaming or producing quality models, not from a managerial perspective; AoS is the product of the same thinking that killed SGs, the same thinking that brought about 1-man stores, the same thinking that turned FW from a home for the company's labours of love to a monotask servitor churning out SM shoulderpads and Contemptor variants(yes, I know, it's called hyperbole, a perfectly valid rhetorical device, unbunch), the same thinking that's seen GWHQ seemingly trying to actively sabotage its relationships with its own retail partners: Maximium profit with minimum effort, feth long-term viability, gotta get dem dividends dividends dividends.

The rules certainly are not quality. And the Kirbymites look carbon copies of each other with the odd difference. I'm not expecting anything wow from GW fantasy wise at least for the time being.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yodhrin wrote:
You know, I'd have a much easier time buying this "Oh no, no, GW only care about kewl models brah, and forgin' dat narrative yeah" shtick folk are peddling if GW hadn't spent the last 15 years slowly strangling and then mercilessly killing off its line of Specialist Games which were almost all primarily about cool models and narrative gaming.

As my Grandad would say; Ehhh, naw, I dinnae 'hink sae pal.

GW don't give a gak about narrative gaming or producing quality models, not from a managerial perspective; AoS is the product of the same thinking that killed SGs, the same thinking that brought about 1-man stores, the same thinking that turned FW from a home for the company's labours of love to a monotask servitor churning out SM shoulderpads and Contemptor variants(yes, I know, it's called hyperbole, a perfectly valid rhetorical device, unbunch), the same thinking that's seen GWHQ seemingly trying to actively sabotage its relationships with its own retail partners: Maximium profit with minimum effort, feth long-term viability, gotta get dem dividends dividends dividends.

This analysis is spot on. Old fantasy will be replaced with the bland uniform thing that AoS has started to show don't expect anything getting much save Kirbymites.

 mikhaila wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

My competitive players mostly all quit playing fantasy, and never come into the shop for pick up games. The only time they play is to "practice" for a tournament with a specific list over and over, mostly proxying models until they get it right, and then not worrying about fantasy until the next tournament they want to go to. WFB sits on the wall gathering dust this last two yeas.

With Age of Simar i've been very surprised to already have players just wandering in and playing games again, using the free rules online and telling me how much they like the game. Most of the people coming in haven't playe WFB in years.

Not willing to say GW did something right just yet.....we'll see how the launch of the starter box goes and where we are at in a month. I made 4 army lists for AoS. Like the players coming into my shop I've got an itch to play with my armies and now have people to play with while at work

Got bored last night, started working on algorithms and classifications for a points system......

Well that happens everytime a new editions has been released. People are curious. Difference this time: The game is 1) shallow 2) pretty bad 3) this is the important one: Compared to 5 years ago, WHF has got A TON MORE competition. It is not that dominant anymore. In case, Warmachine and stuff have taken over.

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

 mikhaila wrote:

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long, it's only a matter of time before the ruleset is similar to AoS in 40k that way they will have protected their games completely.

5 years maybe.

And you will have to replace your old FW HH books. More profit for them.

migooo wrote:

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long

You haven't been around for a long time, have you? Implying that mikhaila "hasn't been in the hobby for long" is...well...

 Sigvatr wrote:

migooo wrote:

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long

You haven't been around for a long time, have you? Implying that mikhaila "hasn't been in the hobby for long" is...well...

I mean that she /he might not have noticed how GW use Fantasy to test updates to both systems that's all.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That Tau pic is great. The inclusion of the "demons" keyword is a nice little nod to the WTF way that Lizardmen are all demons in AoS.

Source? Because that's some fine heresy right there.

heartserenade wrote:Kind of related: Mantic has smelled blood. Rick Priestly, original WHFB creator, wrote the foreword of their new KoW rulebook.

Rick Priestly, king of the trolls.

ShaneTB wrote:
Another point I'll add to that is that a points system means there are always unit people won't use, thus won't buy.

Mostly if your only point of reference for points systems is GW games. Other rule sets balance their units, pointing them appropriately to their abilities, so that a range of different builds are viable.

Plumbumbarum wrote:Btw from my experience the worsst sore loosers are the scenario beardy this beardy that relaxed types especialy when they loose a scenario where they had a clear advantage... Sure purely anecdotal but very funny in the context of the discussion imo.

Also I have a story about balance and casual play. Back in 5th I played nids, my friend played space marines and I had a winning streak against him like 20 games or sth. Now I am not much into fluff more into artwork and minis but he was very immersed in his army and the narrative of it... the actual reason he was loosing that badly was his love for tactical marines, terminators and dreadnoughts. Competitive player would just use better options but he as an ultimate narrative player was fethed by GW abysmal balancing.

We could use more anecdotes like that! Good illustration.

Jeff Tracy wrote:Before, so much of WHFB seemed to boil down to who was better at placing their movement trays. With the AoS rules, tactics come back into the game in interesting ways.

I'm genuinely, non-confrontationally interested to hear more detail about that.

We created a 100 wounds apiece battle, and the games lasted about 3 hours each.

Urgh...

The random aspect of who goes first each turn keeps things interesting and exciting.

Not a new concept to wargaming.

Formations no longer matter, so how you move and place models takes on a whole new significance... And the pile in mechanic allows for more models to get into combat rather than being stuck at the end of rank.

Surely that's less tactical than maneuvering your unit blocks to your advantage? It's less a matter of cleverly setting up a lever to create maximum effect for minimum effort, as cramming more things into a scrum to kick the tar out of eachother, 'cos the rules say you can.

One thing I really liked about the scrolls was that most monsters now have variable stats, depending on their wounds. It makes you think how best to use them rather than just barrelling forward into combat.

Sounds a bit like God of Battles, among others. The more I hear, the more I wonder if the main resource for writing this game was an open copy of God of Battles...?

My big takeaway - if you like 8th edition, your game is still there

Not in GW stores...

and now your models will be there as they are being supported by AoS.

Good thing I already have a beard.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

 Jeff Tracy wrote:
Having played four AoS games now (two from the starter set and two with armies my opponent and I created), I have to say that I think a lot of the rage/quit comments are misguided.

Before, so much of WHFB seemed to boil down to who was better at placing their movement trays. With the AoS rules, tactics come back into the game in interesting ways. Formations no longer matter, so how you move and place models takes on a whole new significance. For game balance, my opponents and I agreed on wounds as our number. We created a 100 wounds apiece battle, and the games lasted about 3 hours each. The random aspect of who goes first each turn keeps things interesting and exciting. And the pile in mechanic allows for more models to get into combat rather than being stuck at the end of rank.

One thing I really liked about the scrolls was that most monsters now have variable stats, depending on their wounds. It makes you think how best to use them rather than just barrelling forward into combat.

My big takeaway - if you like 8th edition, your game is still there, and now your models will be there as they are being supported by AoS. If you are new to fantasy, want to pick it up again, or play 40K, you might want to give AoS a try. So far, the games have been fun (something that was lacking in my last experience with WHFB). Of course, your milage may vary.

So you think a game where units have facing, turning on the spot is not free and flank/ rear charges provide advantage is less tactical than a game with none of the above where you move entire units like they were skirmish models. Interesting tbh.

On the other hand, WFB was very static, and if you looked at the path of each unit in a game, they really didn't go that far. The movent in AoS is a lot greater, part from higher movement stats and the changes to charging. Part do to the increases to movement for some banners, special rules, and not paying for change in facing and the easy of skirmishers to move through tight areas. More movemnt is opening up more tactics.

Add to this that with a skirmish system, you can use a lot more scenery, and the scenery adds challenges and opens up tactics by how it changes the board and LOS.

I've been surprised so far by how good the games in AoS have been. But them I think back to Mordheim, and I remember that game could also have a great deal of tactics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haight wrote:
Not sure if this was seen yet, but if this is true THANK GOD.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/new-age-of-sigmar-rulebook-prices.html


New Age of Sigmar "other book" replacing old WHFB BRB SKU.

EDIT: Okay the bols link wasn't, but someone got a screen cap of essentially the same thing.


For the love all that is holy, please be an expanded rule book. I'm a fan of the warscrolls (mostly, lulz stuff aside), some of the forces have an elegance and nuance to them that i was happily surprised with given the overall streamlined nature of the game. All that we need now is a real core ruleset rather than the hogslop the box set served up, and i think this could be a pretty good game.

It's not the book you are looking for.

Comparing this to Mordheim is insulting to possibly the greatest version of a fantasy skirmish game ever made.

Maybe the movement and positioning of figures is similar but really?

 Haight wrote:
Not sure if this was seen yet, but if this is true THANK GOD.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/07/new-age-of-sigmar-rulebook-prices.html


New Age of Sigmar "other book" replacing old WHFB BRB SKU.

EDIT: Okay the bols link wasn't, but someone got a screen cap of essentially the same thing.


For the love all that is holy, please be an expanded rule book. I'm a fan of the warscrolls (mostly, lulz stuff aside), some of the forces have an elegance and nuance to them that i was happily surprised with given the overall streamlined nature of the game. All that we need now is a real core ruleset rather than the hogslop the box set served up, and i think this could be a pretty good game.

That's effectively what I just posted on the previous page lol.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That Tau pic is great. The inclusion of the "demons" keyword is a nice little nod to the WTF way that Lizardmen are all demons in AoS.

Source? Because that's some fine heresy right there.

Just check the Lizardmen Warscrolls on the website. They have 'Daemon' in the keywords list at the bottom.

migooo wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long, it's only a matter of time before the ruleset is similar to AoS in 40k that way they will have protected their games completely.

5 years maybe.

And you will have to replace your old FW HH books. More profit for them.

ROFL.

Yes, not in the hobby long. Just 30 years. 10,000 painted minatures and enough terrain for 100 player tournaments. I've run hundreds of tournaments, worked with GW closely for many years, used to make their big Games Day displays. Just a beardling.

And very short sighted. It's not like I make a living selling games. I'm sure I don't look at the direction individual games and the industry in general is going, don't try to plan years ahead so I can stay in business.

 mikhaila wrote:

migooo wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long, it's only a matter of time before the ruleset is similar to AoS in 40k that way they will have protected their games completely.

5 years maybe.

And you will have to replace your old FW HH books. More profit for them.

ROFL.

Yes, not in the hobby long. Just 30 years. 10,000 painted minatures and enough terrain for 100 player tournaments. I've run hundreds of tournaments, worked with GW closely for many years, used to make their big Games Day displays. Just a beardling.

And very short sighted. It's not like I make a living selling games. I'm sure I don't look at the direction individual games and the industry in general is going, don't try to plan years ahead so I can stay in business.

Maybe it came across as more harsh than I meant it I noticed a trend and maybe you had not I apologize.

OgreChubbs wrote:
I would be embarrassed to have that on my youtube channel, or be the one who made it. Only thing more pathetic then a man trying to be clever is a man using someone else's idea to try and be clever.

"Few people admit they lack sense, and even fewer that they lack a sense of humor"

migooo wrote:
Comparing this to Mordheim is insulting to possibly the greatest version of a fantasy skirmish game ever made.

Maybe the movement and positioning of figures is similar but really?

Well, since i was discussing the movement and a positioning of figures......and not the rest of Mordheim......

Nocturnus wrote:

OgreChubbs wrote:
I would be embarrassed to have that on my youtube channel, or be the one who made it. Only thing more pathetic then a man trying to be clever is a man using someone else's idea to try and be clever.

"Few people admit they lack sense, and even fewer that they lack a sense of humor"

So GW then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mikhaila wrote:

migooo wrote:
Comparing this to Mordheim is insulting to possibly the greatest version of a fantasy skirmish game ever made.

Maybe the movement and positioning of figures is similar but really?

Well, since i was discussing the movement and a positioning of figures......and not the rest of Mordheim......

The comparison is still insulting for a system they abandoned and now the setting it was based in has been also.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That Tau pic is great. The inclusion of the "demons" keyword is a nice little nod to the WTF way that Lizardmen are all demons in AoS.

Source? Because that's some fine heresy right there.

Just check the Lizardmen Warscrolls on the website. They have 'Daemon' in the keywords list at the bottom.

Well, gak.
Their models better be amazing.

migooo wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long, it's only a matter of time before the ruleset is similar to AoS in 40k that way they will have protected their games completely.

5 years maybe.

And you will have to replace your old FW HH books. More profit for them.

Un flippin' believable that somebody would have typed that at mikhaila!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That Tau pic is great. The inclusion of the "demons" keyword is a nice little nod to the WTF way that Lizardmen are all demons in AoS.

Source? Because that's some fine heresy right there.

Just check the Lizardmen Warscrolls on the website. They have 'Daemon' in the keywords list at the bottom.

Well, gak.
Their models better be amazing.

I half expect them to loose the Aztec theme and be more ethereal looking

migooo wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

migooo wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long, it's only a matter of time before the ruleset is similar to AoS in 40k that way they will have protected their games completely.

5 years maybe.

And you will have to replace your old FW HH books. More profit for them.

ROFL.

Yes, not in the hobby long. Just 30 years. 10,000 painted minatures and enough terrain for 100 player tournaments. I've run hundreds of tournaments, worked with GW closely for many years, used to make their big Games Day displays. Just a beardling.

And very short sighted. It's not like I make a living selling games. I'm sure I don't look at the direction individual games and the industry in general is going, don't try to plan years ahead so I can stay in business.

Maybe it came across as more harsh than I meant it I noticed a trend and maybe you had not I apologize.

No worries. I'm working on a huge lack of sleep, which i mostly blame on GW, and I found your statement funny, not annoying. If you don't know me, not your fault.

 Xyxox wrote:

migooo wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

 filbert wrote:
So by that same token, if GW are not interested in the competitive side of the market as you postulate Manchu, does that point to us seeing something similar for 40K should sales suffer a fall?

Money. It's all about the money with GW. Other discussions have pointed to WFB being less than 16% of GW's sales. A rough estimate from data over the years puts paints and non gaming items at another 1/6th. Lets not worry about lotr. So 40k is 2/3rds of GW's sales of product.

I don't expect them to muck with 40k unless things either go very bad for 40k in the future, or AoS gets astronomical sales.

Your either very short sighted or haven't been in the hobby long, it's only a matter of time before the ruleset is similar to AoS in 40k that way they will have protected their games completely.

5 years maybe.

And you will have to replace your old FW HH books. More profit for them.

Un flippin' believable that somebody would have typed that at mikhaila!

I apologized. I've not noticed him much in threads then I tend to only go in one's that interest me. Mostly Plogs

migooo wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That Tau pic is great. The inclusion of the "demons" keyword is a nice little nod to the WTF way that Lizardmen are all demons in AoS.

Source? Because that's some fine heresy right there.

Just check the Lizardmen Warscrolls on the website. They have 'Daemon' in the keywords list at the bottom.

Well, gak.
Their models better be amazing.

I half expect them to loose the Aztec theme and be more ethereal looking

They better not.
I liked my Meso-American genetically modified lizard people.
I don't want them to be be some rehash of Malal's minions.