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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:12:11
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Furyou Miko wrote:Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks. Automatically Appended Next Post: Da Stormlord wrote:Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
Quoted for truth, good sir.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 19:16:47
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:24:07
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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krodarklorr wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
But they aren't that great. If you had choices wouldn't you prefer a squad of tomb blades who are faster with better weapons then them? Or flayed ones who cost the same but are insane in combat. Warriors are part of the tax on the decurion because they aren't really "troops" in that they don't have objective secured and thus don't really offer anything that you can't find elsewhere you simply have to include them so it makes sense to build your army around them and include a ghost ark.
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Psienesis wrote:While that's possible, it's also stupid to build your game around your customers being fething morons |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:31:45
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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krodarklorr wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Stormlord wrote:Why is everyone complaining? Decurions are the necrons special thing, and every army is OP in its own right. Grey knights have Paladins, dreadlnights and psychic, tau have overwhelming firepower, eldar are fast....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!!
Quoted for truth, good sir.
Truth yeah, I suppose that truth isn't equivalent for CSM, DA, SOB, IG, or many other armies that make top 5?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:35:42
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Punisher wrote: krodarklorr wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
But they aren't that great. If you had choices wouldn't you prefer a squad of tomb blades who are faster with better weapons then them? Or flayed ones who cost the same but are insane in combat. Warriors are part of the tax on the decurion because they aren't really "troops" in that they don't have objective secured and thus don't really offer anything that you can't find elsewhere you simply have to include them so it makes sense to build your army around them and include a ghost ark. Are you one of the people that find Tac marines useless? I've told my girlfriend numerous times, to bring more weight of fire in her lists. When she does that, she actually gives me a run for my money. A squad of 20 Warriors will most likely never die, and can shoot and kill most things in the game. Weight of fire is how Necrons deal with things like Terminators. Tomb Blades don't have as much firepower, and tend to be focused down. Flayed ones are only good in CC. Automatically Appended Next Post: ZebioLizard2 wrote: krodarklorr wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Da Stormlord wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: And to everyone thinking the previous codex was balanced.... You're wrong. Most of the elites were nearly unusable and roughly 2/3 of everything else was useless, like tomb blades and lychguard. In a straight fight against terminators, my lychguard lost in the old dex and they're double the price of them. WTF!!!!!! Quoted for truth, good sir. Truth yeah, I suppose that truth isn't equivalent for CSM, DA, SOB, IG, or many other armies that make top 5? I should correct myself. I actually was looking at the second part of his post. The first part is certainly debatable.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/08 19:36:49
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:40:00
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Moscow, Russia
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jasper76 wrote: Vaktathi wrote:nobody thought the previous codex was well balanced. It had tons of unusable junk and a clutch of painfully overcapable units/wargear. This codex solved those issues by making absurdly powerful army-side special rules and formations that enhance them further.
Actually, I'd say the codex solved the problem by nerfing all the "clutch" units, and buffing the previously bad units.
My guess is the 4+ Decurion RP was offered, because the game designers wanted Necrons to play more like The Terminator. The formations seem like more of a marketting ploy than anything else, and the new Daemonkin codex shows that this strategy is not peculiar to Necrons.
The only headscratcher for me in the whole codex really is Wraith Toughness. That may very well have been an FU to the IoM from a Necron-enthusiast game designer, or some such.
I have a hunch that what happened with Wraiths was something like
There are two jump infantry units in the game, Wraiths and Praetorians
We have to improve Praetorians, because the have the same niche as Wraiths but are worse
Let's make Wraiths Beasts instead of jump infantry
Now Wraiths are weaker iin assault because they no longer have hammer of wrath. They're not an assault unit any more. They're a tarpit
Let's give them a tarpit-enhancer -- +1 T
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:41:11
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Alcibiades wrote: jasper76 wrote: Vaktathi wrote:nobody thought the previous codex was well balanced. It had tons of unusable junk and a clutch of painfully overcapable units/wargear. This codex solved those issues by making absurdly powerful army-side special rules and formations that enhance them further.
Actually, I'd say the codex solved the problem by nerfing all the "clutch" units, and buffing the previously bad units.
My guess is the 4+ Decurion RP was offered, because the game designers wanted Necrons to play more like The Terminator. The formations seem like more of a marketting ploy than anything else, and the new Daemonkin codex shows that this strategy is not peculiar to Necrons.
The only headscratcher for me in the whole codex really is Wraith Toughness. That may very well have been an FU to the IoM from a Necron-enthusiast game designer, or some such.
I have a hunch that what happened with Wraiths was something like
There are two jump infantry units in the game, Wraiths and Praetorians
We have to improve Praetorians, because the have the same niche as Wraiths but are worse
Let's make Wraiths Beasts instead of jump infantry
Now Wraiths are weaker iin assault because they no longer have hammer of wrath. They're not an assault unit any more. They're a tarpit
Let's give them a tarpit-enhancer -- +1 T
Well, they did fix praetorians though. I would rather have Praetorians if I wanted to kill anything effectively.
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40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 19:54:31
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Depends on what you're fighting.
If you're fighting vehicles, light infantry, and T8+ units, the Wraiths have a clear superiority.
Against heavy infantry and medium T5/6/7 MC's, the Praetorians are better, but the Wraiths aren't exactly terrible against such units either.
Praetorians are solid units, its just that the Wraiths can engage just about anything, are even faster (get Fleet and 12" move, don't have to choose, and ignore cover completely) and are so much more resilient, that they're almost auto-pilot units, the only thing you need to worry about with them is target priority.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 19:56:05
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 20:09:11
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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Hosted a game of Eldar vs Decurion Necrons this past weekend. By turn 4, the Eldar player was ready to concede. In one turn, he dropped 22 wounds on a single unit of 15 warriors and a overlord. Of those 22, 11 of them were AP2 or better. By the time the smoke cleared, a mere 5 Necron warriors were dead.
The Canoptek Harvest faired even better. The spyder took 2 wounds after being shot at for 4 turns by Wraithcannons and brightlances. The Wraiths took no wounds from similar shooting, and the scarabs tied up a wraithknight for 5 rounds of combat before finally being wiped out (but they inflicted 4 wounds on the WK during that time).
After the game, the Necron player actually said, "It's not that the Decurian is OP, its just that it totally gimps (the opponent's) offense." I tried to keep from laughing too hard....
If the Daemonkin codex is known as "Codex: Buy A New Bloodthirster", then the Necron codex should be known as "Codex: Buy Stuff With Destroyer Weapons".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 20:11:36
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Prophetic Blood Angel Librarian
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Punisher wrote: krodarklorr wrote: Furyou Miko wrote:Actually, its the Warriors that are the rubbish must-takes. Tomb Blades are awesome. :p
Anyway, something people are neglecting when talking about how the Decurion "isn't that bad" is that having the Decurion also means that your infantry have the Reclamation Legion benefit of rerolling ones for RP.
I kindly disagree. Warriors are awesome. They're tough to kill, chuck out a good amount of firepower that can kill anything, and now have relentless and MTC. Plus, you can reanimate dead ones with Ghost Arks.
But they aren't that great. If you had choices wouldn't you prefer a squad of tomb blades who are faster with better weapons then them? Or flayed ones who cost the same but are insane in combat. Warriors are part of the tax on the decurion because they aren't really "troops" in that they don't have objective secured and thus don't really offer anything that you can't find elsewhere you simply have to include them so it makes sense to build your army around them and include a ghost ark.
Against ap5 st7 or lower warriors only have a 20.8% chance of failing a save which is far closer to a termis 16.7% chance of failing than a powerarmoured 33.3% chance of failing.
Against ap3 and 4 they have a 41.4% chance of failing (this is their weak spot).
Against ap2 st7 or lower they have a better chance than termis (41.4% against 66.7% chance of failing)
Against ap2 st8 or higher they again have a better chance than termis (55.5% against 66.7%).
They are slightly less durable than termis overall I'd say due to the ap3-4 gap, but cost less than a 1/3 of the price. Comparing them to PA troops would highlight this even more.
They do not need any special weapons due to gauss so save points there and can take very effective DTs.
Calling them a 'tax' is a huge stretch.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/08 20:12:34
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I've faced the New Necrons twice now. The volume of fire from splinter cannons helped the first time, while battlecannons worked very well the second time.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/08 20:13:11
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 14:25:48
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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Kaeldran wrote: Mythra wrote:I'll tell you what is OP - Orikan w/ wraiths. 3++, 5 Tou, rerolling 1s on saves, 2 W each w/ the Spider formation giving them feel no pain.
I took several 10 Str AP 1 blasts and didn't lose a wraith.
Why wraiths instead of lichguards?
Lichguards also get 5T 3++ and RP, but more attacks at AP3. They cost nearly than half harvest wraith, so you get the same number of wounds, but without the risk of loosing the RP.
The real plus of the wraiths is their tremendous mobility, but with Orikan is inside the unit...
You lose fearless so if you lost a combat you could get swept, Lychguard get no shooting or over watch, I use the Spyder formation so I get relentless which means I can arm my wraiths with the trans beamers, you lose rending vs AV2 and Vehicles, your more vulnerable to blast, Lychguard are Str5 vs Wraiths Str6 which is big wounding t4 units, and with wraiths if the IC is up front with them they can get an addition 2 inches of move and you can still stay in coherency.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 14:26:46
01001000 01101001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00101110 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 16:40:44
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List
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I find pretty difficult to conceive a scenario where a T5 rerolled S3++/4+++ unit could lose a melle combat. Maybe against an opponent with a D weapon? And even then is difficult.
In the other side, 3 wraiths with beamers, plus spider, plus scarabs, will cost more than 10 lychguards. Or, if you wanna use a complete wraithwing with 6 members plus Orikan, the equivalent in points with lichguards will be 10 plus Orikan plus a Dlord with S2+ & scythe.
In both cases the offensive and defensive capacity of the rock are better with lichguards (except against AV12 vehicles in the first case).
Regarding mobility, a conga line wouldn't be very affective in a relativety small unit that can not enter the trable via deep strike, flanking or using a transport.
The version with lichguards instead, could use a NS for a fast a precise deployment.
In short, what I'm trying to say is that a harvest Orikan is slightly less effective than with lichguards; and still Orikan with lichs is not a too fearsome unit (yes, it is one of the most indestructible rocks in the game, but hasn't the speed or power to actually affect anything that can move and do not want to be affected).
There are certanly some cheese in the codex, but Orikan in S3 ++ unit, beyond making a super tough rock, is not one of those.
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<<Give a man fire and he will be warm for a night. Set him ablaze and he will stay warm for a life.>>
Void Dragon's pious tribulations, 22-15 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 16:57:57
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Judgemental Grey Knight Justicar
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I disagree b/c I have come against several Knights and the wraiths do much better vs those. Wraiths also do way better vs Terminators and Centurions.
I put the Necron artifact in that me DS my group on one of my HQs, so my wraiths can be right there the next turn.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 17:26:10
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller
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Martel732 wrote:" and every army is OP in its own right."
Find it in the BA codex. I dare you.
Is the answer drop pods?
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Brb learning to play.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 21:20:08
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Floating Firefly Drone
Canada
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Anything long range, especially anything that doesn't need LOS. Take advantage of cover saves. More shots is better than quality shots. Melee kills, blast wrecks, etc. Remember that you won't table necrons usually, but you can widdle them down so their already measly shots go down to nothing. It's a tough fight, but it's possible.
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5000pts Necrons
5000pts Salamanders
Battle for Zycanthus box set
Bunch of old Heroscape stuff |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 21:54:21
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The decurian detachment is there to help with the fact they don't have psyckers. Every army without them has super ranged capability, ( tau and skitarri) or the ability to get defensive buffs easily(dark eldar, necrons, and daemonkin)
If there wasn't the ability to inviability, give out stealth and shrouded, or twinlink weapon options, then yes, the decurion would be too good. As it stands, the only thing that comes near op status in the canoptic harvest formation. T5 is a bit of a pain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 22:03:07
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets
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Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:The decurian detachment is there to help with the fact they don't have psyckers. Every army without them has super ranged capability, ( tau and skitarri) or the ability to get defensive buffs easily(dark eldar, necrons, and daemonkin)
If there wasn't the ability to inviability, give out stealth and shrouded, or twinlink weapon options, then yes, the decurion would be too good. As it stands, the only thing that comes near op status in the canoptic harvest formation. T5 is a bit of a pain.
As a CSM player, I can safely say I would trade in my psykers for the amazing power of the Decurion.
I mean, having always on bonuses without the need of unreliably rolling up a power I might need or get one that's useless over what amounts to an armywide FNP that can't be denied by ID? Sign me up.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 23:10:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 22:04:29
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Slaanesh Chosen Marine Riding a Fiend
Maine
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Jaceevoke wrote:I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated
I wouldn't shelve them. If you feel they are too strong with their 'formation detachments', then just take the regular CAD from the BRB. Yes, crons are durable and a solid army, but they are less of a headache without the free massive bonuses. Just run them like 'old times' and people will be a lot happier, and I'm sure you will too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/09 23:15:47
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Gargantuan Grotesque With Gnarskin
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ZebioLizard2 wrote:lustigjh wrote: jasper76 wrote: Grimdark wrote:If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.
Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).
With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.
MSS was definitely not an issue. It was a giant "shoot me from range" sign.
All I cared about was nerfing Wraiths' 3++ to a 4++ at best. We all know how that went. The rest of the previous codex was not bad.
As a Chaos Player forced to challenge, MSS was an issue.
Course there's alotta issues for us, being on the low tier end. I feel like Tau in 5th edition.
I play Chaos as well. My strategies were to either play keep away and ignore/shoot the HQ or put my beatstick HQ in a unit with a throwaway Aspiring Champion who only gets war gear that can't bypass his unit's armor. With the latter option I relied on sweeping or wound saturation to take care of the HQ.
I agree that we're still fighting uphill regardless. Automatically Appended Next Post: Szeras wrote:Anything long range, especially anything that doesn't need LOS. Take advantage of cover saves. More shots is better than quality shots. Melee kills, blast wrecks, etc. Remember that you won't table necrons usually, but you can widdle them down so their already measly shots go down to nothing. It's a tough fight, but it's possible.
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/09 23:35:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 02:07:46
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Floating Firefly Drone
Canada
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Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are undercosted. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4 or make them cost more. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
edited for clarification
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/10 02:27:36
5000pts Necrons
5000pts Salamanders
Battle for Zycanthus box set
Bunch of old Heroscape stuff |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 02:21:25
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Szeras wrote:Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
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40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 02:26:36
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Floating Firefly Drone
Canada
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krodarklorr wrote:Szeras wrote:Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
This got my exalt. I think the way you put it is more accurate, undercosted as apposed to OP. I'll edit the post to make more sense.
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5000pts Necrons
5000pts Salamanders
Battle for Zycanthus box set
Bunch of old Heroscape stuff |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 02:41:35
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Loyal Necron Lychguard
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Szeras wrote: krodarklorr wrote:Szeras wrote:Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
This got my exalt. I think the way you put it is more accurate, undercosted as apposed to OP. I'll edit the post to make more sense.
Why thank you, sir.
But no, if I really wanted to kill stuff in melee, I purchased/painted 20 Flayed ones a little while back, as well as have invested into more Praetorians. Them I expect to kill stuff dead.
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40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 09:11:42
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Hallowed Canoness
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lustigjh wrote:
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
Au contraire, I haven't actually used my Necrons since the new codex came out (mostly because one of my regular opponents uses them and doesn't have her own models yet).
When I say "throw lots of heavy bolters at them", I talk from experience as a Sororitas player fighting against the 'crons.
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"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 11:24:11
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord
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krodarklorr wrote:Szeras wrote:Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
We say that because it works. The ghost ark does counter act that ever so slightly and wraiths are OP. Sorry about that. I will gladly use a house rule that states wraiths only get a 4++ or T4. But you need to remember that once necrons start losing troops, they lose firepower pretty fast which is where priority targeting comes in. The new codex did make 'crons OP but I'm trying to help others counter act that as best I can. Sorry if I can't do that perfectly without changing the rules.
Wraiths aren't OP. They're perhaps undercosted, which I could see the argument. But they don't instantly kill everything they touch. But also, not everyone uses Wraiths. And the sad thing is, I've used Wraiths once out of the 12 or so games I've played, and I've still done ridiculously good. I'd love for you to focus your whole effort around preparing for Wraiths and fight someone that doesn't use them. Necrons have a ton of good option besides Wraiths, yet people refuse to experiment with anything else. Wraiths are far from an auto-include in my opinion, unless you're talking top competitive world championship bull crap level. Then yeah, you'd probably need them.
Undercosted = overpowered
They mean exactly the same thing. Maybe you are saying the idea of a wraith isn't OP, and I agree. When you don't pay enough for it, it's very OP.
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If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 12:14:06
Subject: Re:Is decurion too good?
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Lord of the Fleet
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Yeah, the undercosted/overpowered thing is an argument of semantics, and not really important. The general gist of claiming something is overpowered is that its abilities do not match its price tag. Whether the price tag is inappropriate for the abilities, or the abilities are inappropriate for the price tag, the end result is the same. The unit or formation in question offers too much for too little cost, and thus is overpowered.
I suppose you could argue the amount of overpowered-ness, but I don't think you'll be able to come to any sort of concrete agreement with people.
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Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 12:18:22
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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Furyou Miko wrote:lustigjh wrote:
Every Necron player loves to throw the "just use volume of fire and melee attacks" line at everyone who complains about the Decurion as if the petty handful of wounds made by massed fire won't get regenerated by a ghost ark while S6/T5/3++/4+++ Wraiths magically won't intercept and shred any melee unit that shows its face.
Au contraire, I haven't actually used my Necrons since the new codex came out (mostly because one of my regular opponents uses them and doesn't have her own models yet).
When I say "throw lots of heavy bolters at them", I talk from experience as a Sororitas player fighting against the 'crons.
My last game I had 10 bolter sisters, 3 heavy bolter immolators and 4 heavy bolter retributors try to take out a unit of 10 cron warriors round 1. They killed one, and it got resurrected next round.
(the same game a unit of arco flails managed to take out his 500p warlord bunker though, by making 2 wounds, two crusaders completely saving 10 wounds, him rolling 12 for the leadership test and suffering a catastrophic sweeping advance. So I'm not allowed to complain about that game.)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/10 12:18:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 12:24:00
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Thermo-Optical Hac Tao
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Thing is, anything in the game can be killed with weight of fire or attacks. That doesn't stop something being too powerful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 12:42:01
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I have seen a pretty interesting match between a Decurion style Necron army and a Coven Dark Eldar Army. Dark Eldars mannaged to win after a lot of grinding in close combat. I have seen similar things with orks green tides (an Imperial Guard tried with lots of tanks supported by cheap underarmed troops but failed). I think those two forces mirror each ther quite nicely. From what I have seen on Dakka Dakka, most competitive players are rather impatient and prefer glass hammer kind of tactics where they strike really hard and make a lot of damage safely than slowly grinding the ennemy away. This may be one of the reason Necron are hated a lot. Their greatest quality is do deny a style of play loved by a lot of players. As for how to defeat them, immobilising the wraith in assault with a stubborn unit with hight leadership and slowing down the rest of the ennemy forces with terrain to grab more objectives seems to be the safest route, but I have yet to win against such kind of army with my guys.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/10 12:57:48
Subject: Is decurion too good?
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Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker
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Considering Necron have no real counter to the top builds of Adlance, Centstar, and FMC spam (demons and tyranids) no, nothing about decurion comes close to bring overpowered or cheesy.
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