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I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?

No obsec, lots of points in NOT-wraiths.

 Icelord wrote:
I am having a heck of a time vs decurion. It's everywhere in my local meta. Does it having glaring weaknesses?

As noted, you don't get ObSec, and you can't hamfist in quite as many wraiths as easily as you can with a straight CAD (though you can make them much more resilient). I have yet to see ObSec make a consistent game changer so I don't see it as a glaring weakness that isn't *more* than made up for by the Decurion benefits, but that's just me.

I have yet to see a Decurion lose a game.

I have played 4 games with it. I am 4-0. Played against it 1 time and am 0-1.

I think it's too strong.

Everyone talks about obj sec. But who cares if your army is dead!

With 4+ RP rr1s on top of at least 4+ saves it basically makes them an army of terminators except you only are paying 13-17 points for them.

ObSec just isn't that big of a counter play because it's too easy to just kill the unit with ObSec.

 Icelord wrote:
I have played 4 games with it. I am 4-0. Played against it 1 time and am 0-1.

I think it's too strong.

Everyone talks about obj sec. But who cares if your army is dead!

It's too strong.

The problem with Decurion is that it enhances the entire army that you put on the table with very strong abilities that are worth many points per model. However when you use Decurion, you don't actually pay any points for it. Decurion also doesn't give you any real significant disadvantages to counter this huge bonus in efficiency that you're getting from taking it.

The effect on the tabletop is that while you're playing with a 1500 point army, with the bonuses from Decurion, your army is probably actually WORTH somewhere around the 1800 mark. That number is just a quick guess and an abstraction, but you get my point. It's a very huge bump in your efficiency.

So what that means is most armies that you play against are going to play at a significant handicap.

Thus, it's pretty easy against most armies to win using Decurion.

It's pretty strong.

Compared to IoM Allies and Eldar Allies, just strong enough IMO.

Plus, we lost amost all the things people were complaining about last edition. I guess you can never make everyone happy.

If you can spam heavy artillery that might be a counter; wounding on 2s, negating the armour, and taking the RP back to 5+ when fighting a lot of big ground units sounds effective to me. The Decurion is also stuck spending a lot of points on things that can't hit planes, if you have a lot of flyers that can actually damage them (I've had trouble killing any models in the army with lots of S4/S5 shooting off of Vultures and Valkyries, but a Voidraven might have more luck) that might work.

It's super strong, no doubt. I still don't know if it's overpowered. I haven't played against an army with Wraiths in it yet.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If you can spam heavy artillery that might be a counter; wounding on 2s, negating the armour, and taking the RP back to 5+ when fighting a lot of big ground units sounds effective to me. The Decurion is also stuck spending a lot of points on things that can't hit planes, if you have a lot of flyers that can actually damage them (I've had trouble killing any models in the army with lots of S4/S5 shooting off of Vultures and Valkyries, but a Voidraven might have more luck) that might work.

Actually the Decurion can EASILY out plane you. They can take a 130 points night scythe for ever single unit they take. Most of the Decurion lists I have seen have 3 scythes easy.

Is the Decurion too good? No. Is the Canoptek Harvest formation too good? Yes.

Even Wraiths on their own aren't that bad, it's their formation that makes them too good.

As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.

I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.

I almost wish that just the reclamation legion got the decurion bonuses. At least the wraiths would only have the 5+ then.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.

I can't wait for CSM to get their own Decurion.

I wonder what we'll get? An extra hit for Soul Blaze? Fear tests are taken on -1 LD?

 Vaktathi wrote:
I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.

The GK formation would be amazing if I didn't have to field over 2600 points of mostly bad units in order to use it. Even then it's bonuses aren't even close to decurion. Decurion just doesn't make sense - its kind of like but actually better than every unit in your army having endurance up at all times. Umm...I just have to ask - what idiot makes this stuff up?

There are 2 different 40k games to discuss on any topic:

In casual "basement/small lgs" play, where people actually run tactical marines, tactical terminators, dreadnoughts, and such? Yeah decurion rocks them out in its sleep, regardless of which subformations you threw in.

In competitive "flyrants riding on top of adlance knights skating on wave serpents piloted by sevrin loth and throwing riptides at you" play, decurion is still a tough contender, without needing any allies, which says a lot about how strong it is.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I would posit that Necrons weren't the first army to get formations or their own unique detachment by any stretch, rather, they were a radical departure in power level from the preceding books. BA's and GK's have their own unique detachments and formations, but don't have anything near the power of a Decurion for instance.

They're the first to have the new detachment that is made up entirely of various formations as a new way of army construction. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that point. And we'll see more armies use this system as time goes on.

I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Well, from the games I played so far I can say its very tough to beat.
In particular, Warriors and Immortals benefit from them.
They are very hard to remove.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Me too. I have nearly 5k of sivertide-toting madness shelved cause I find playing them boring.
I don't have any wraiths. I don't have any tomb blades.

New 'crons dex allows fluffy list.
It's made nearly everything viable.
It's internally balanced.

It's also too durable.
I don't like the RP=FNP, to me it dumbed down the uniqueness of the faction.
It lacks serious firepower for the allegedly most technologically advanced race.

If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.

 Grimdark wrote:
If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.

Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).

With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.

Its bs. Best part is even if they nerf tau and eldar coming up this will be here for years yet.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Grimdark wrote:
If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.

Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).

With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.

Honestly If RP didnt work in like CC i think no one would have an issue. it just doesnt have an intuitive counter. ID kinda does but not really since it doesnt set it at 6 with no mods. D weapons are still not quite as widedspread so isnt really an option.

It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.

 jasper76 wrote:
It's pretty strong.

Compared to IoM Allies and Eldar Allies, just strong enough IMO.

Plus, we lost amost all the things people were complaining about last edition. I guess you can never make everyone happy.

This. A thousand times this.

 jy2 wrote:
It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.

Yeah, the only problem with the Decurion (and Necron) is that it's too easy to build an army that doesn't require a lot of skill or strategy to be above-average, because of that durability. You might lose every game against great players, but against mediocre players, it's an easy edge. Really, it's the same problem as Wave Serpent -- it isn't that WS can't be tamed, it's just that a crappy player can play WS spam and get better than mediocre results.

Think of the armies as having a low floor in terms of effectiveness, but also a lower ceiling.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Wow, really? Your army is too powerful and it makes you not wanna play them? Uhh...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimdark wrote:

 Jaceevoke wrote:
I can't be the only former necron player that was driven away by how strong and overpowered this book was, add to that there is virtually no hope that GW will fix it any time soon. A real shame that I will be shelving my army for however long it takes til they get updated

Me too. I have nearly 5k of sivertide-toting madness shelved cause I find playing them boring.
I don't have any wraiths. I don't have any tomb blades.

New 'crons dex allows fluffy list.
It's made nearly everything viable.
It's internally balanced.

It's also too durable.
I don't like the RP=FNP, to me it dumbed down the uniqueness of the faction.
It lacks serious firepower for the allegedly most technologically advanced race.

If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.

Too durable? By fluff Necrons should be that durable. And the fact that Multi-wound models now resemble their fluff (reanimating lost limbs and other damage, or Overlords knitting themselves back together). I think it was a win-win. Really strong on the table (Thats Necron's selling point, after all), and it simplified the rule. Also, Necrons have good firepower. Gauss is fantastic, and Tesla pumps wounds through like crazy. Plus, we're one of the 2 armies (I think it's 2) to have a S10 Lance. And also, a Primary weapon that's not apoc-only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Grimdark wrote:
If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.

Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).

With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.

Yeah, I loved all the discussions about RP turning into FNP, and everyone was one board with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 Grimdark wrote:
If I didn't have my army shelved I would laugh at whoever wanted MSS(which were never an issue to anyone using correct positioning...) and tesla nerf and now has to deal with this monstrosity.

Don't forget "they" also wanted the Transcendent C'Tan toned down (done, big time), Cryptek cheese toned down (done), ABs and NSs to go up in points (done), and "they" complained that RP took too long and should work more like FNP (done).

With the possible of to the Wraith T buff, this update could read like a Necron nerf wishlist. And in return, we got Decurion.

Honestly If RP didnt work in like CC i think no one would have an issue. it just doesnt have an intuitive counter. ID kinda does but not really since it doesnt set it at 6 with no mods. D weapons are still not quite as widedspread so isnt really an option.

Well, I'm sorry that Necrons were prone to being swept in the last codex, and that the only special rule the army had was ignorable. Not like it would make sense for all of them to be Stubborn or Fearless, so us being able to reanimate is our defense in CC.

In casual play? Yes... WAY too good.
In tournament play? No... Good but other spam armies are better (*cough* elder serpent spam *cough*)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

As for formation bonuses being free, well, that's what formations do. Other armies have them, too, and as more books come out, more armies will have more of them. That's always the problem when an army is the "first" to get something new, but it's just a matter of time for other armies to get the same.

Difference is Decurion is not a formation bonus. It is a detachment bonus that is added on top of the already good formation bonuses.

 jy2 wrote:
It's good but IMO it isn't too good. It's got super-resiliency, but it doesn't have enough offense nor does it have the mobility to handle the super-competitive tournament builds. I rate it as a lower-upper tiered army (like an 8 on a scale of 1-10) in the tournament scheme.

I don't see where it lacks either mobility or killing power. Everything in the Reclamation Legion portion gets Relentless, and due to RP, isn't tied to hiding in cover either. Meanwhile, units like Tomb Blades and Wraiths are exceedingly fast, and Necrons still have probably the best Flyer transport in the game and one of the cheapest, while Ghost Arks can get a unit from their deployment zone to an opponents board edge in two turns.

Necrons have tons of mobility.

Meanwhile, they can put out an astounding volume of firepower. They may not have gobs of AP2 the way you can kit out an IG army to have, but they can put out enough volume to overwhelm almost anything,and most weapons can be used to at least *some* effect against literally anything. Menawhile CC units like Wraiths, Flayed Ones, and Lychguard can put out an insane amount of hurt once stuck in.

If the CH didn't have Reanimation Protocols as one of its options it would be much more sane.

Does anybody ever use Fleet or Shred instead?