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But would greece then have to pay turkey reparations for destroying troy?

Just another attempt to shift the blame. The Greeks put themselves into a gakky position, and cant accept that theyve got noone but themselves to blame.
Hell, I wouldnt even mind that much if they hadnt vilinised the German people. As it is, I couldnt care less if the whole country goes bankrupt. In fact, Id enjoy it. Wouldnt get back the money they were loaned, but its not like theres a chance of that happening anyway.

Greece is a huge benefits state/country right?

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Well, tons of Greek are paying for something they likely have no more responsibility in.

Two wrongs?

Settle the score?

 easysauce wrote:
they have the responsibility, because its their current, elected government, and like it or not, they benefited from the money when it was coming in, so they are responsible for the flip side to that since they enjoyed the benefits.

Yeah, but Germans elected Hitler, and they benefited from the pillaging too. So, where do we draw the line?

I still think the Greeks should elect the communist party and do what the Soviets did when the West started nagging about the huge debts Russia owed after the 1st World War. "Debt? Whats that"?

Go Finland

There are other countries that had to pay reparations as part of the Paris Peace Treaties agreement in 1947.

Italy ($360 million)

Italy was one of the main Axis Powers alongside Germany and Japan. Under a peace treaty, it was required to pay $125 million to Yugoslavia, $105m to Greece, $100m to the Soviet Union, $25m to Ethiopia and $5m to Albania.

Finland ($300 million)

Out of all the countries that were required to pay reparations from World War II, Finland is the only one known to have paid its bill in full when it sent $300 million to the Soviet Union in 1952.

Hungary ($300 million)

Under a peace treaty, Hungary was required to pay $200 million to the Soviet Union, and $100m to Czechslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Romania ($300 million)

Under a peace treaty, Romania had to pay $300 million to the Soviet Union, for the damage it caused with its "military operations". According to the treaty, it was to be made "payable over eight years from September 12, 1944, in commodities."

Bulgaria ($70 million)

Bulgaria was asked to pay $45 million to Greece, and $25m to Yugoslavia. For the full $70 million, the treaty said it was to be made "payable in kind from the products of manufacturing and extractive industries and agriculture over eight years."

Expected

The only Allied country who won but paid compensation was the USA, to Japan. In 1988, under the Civil Liberties Act, U.S. President, Ronald Reagan, apologized to the Japanese-Americans interned in camps during World War II and agreed to pay $20,000 to each surviving former detainee.

Germany

Germany was required to pay the most for World War II, however, the original total still appears unclear – mainly because Allied countries demanded different forms of repayment at different meetings to discuss Europe after the war. It was believed that initially the Allies suggested that Germany owed up to $320 billion in filed reparation claims -- a total, which they shortly realized couldn't be fulfilled by Germany at the time, especially with the added World War I debt.

At the conference on German External Debts, in London, 1952, Germany's post-war debts were written down to just under 7 billion deutschemarks (worth about $3 billion at today's currency rates) from 16.2 billion deutschemarks, whilst its pre-war debts were reduced to 7.3 billion deutschemarks,

Additionally, Germany had to relinquish the country's power and divide itself initially into four Allied-owned zones, which were demilitarized and removed of their weaponry.

According to one of the allied meetings, the Potsdam Conference, "payment of reparations should leave enough resources to enable the German people to subsist without external assistance."

On January 14th 1946, in Paris, two forms of reparation were set up for the allies, in forms of shares: all reparations including funds, and those in the form of 'industrial and other capital equipment'. The U.K., U.S., France and Yugoslavia were the biggest shareholders.

On top of that, Germany signed an agreement on September 10th 1952, confirming that West Germany would agree to pay 3 billion deutschemarks to Israel in instalments and 450 million deutschemarks to the World Jewish Congress, a federation which represents Jewish communities, over 12 years.

Similar to the situation with Greece, Israel's finance minister, Yuval Steinitz, announced in 2009 that he wanted Germany to pay between 450 million to 1 billion euros in reparations for Jews forced into slave labor during the Holocaust – despite the fact that Germany had paid off their allocated debt to Israel.

While it remains unclear on how much Germany originally owed and how much it has to pay back now – given interest on top of the original loan and countries claiming they haven't been paid enough – one writer has hazarded an estimate. According to Pablo De Grieff, author of "The Handbook of Reparations", by September 30th 1965, Germany had paid $4.5 billion, which rose to a total of more than $38.6 billion by 2000.

I ighly doubt that Germany going to go with what Greece wants

 Medium of Death wrote:
Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Black guy here, and, now that you mention it...

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Black guy here, and, now that you mention it...

Believe that went through the Court systems already .....
wait..
Have the Chinese filed yet?

 Jihadin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Black guy here, and, now that you mention it...

Believe that went through the Court systems already .....
wait..
Have the Chinese filed yet?

And what about the native Americans? Surely they could sue for HUGE reparations after being almost exterminated by the US.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
they have the responsibility, because its their current, elected government, and like it or not, they benefited from the money when it was coming in, so they are responsible for the flip side to that since they enjoyed the benefits.

Yeah, but Germans elected Hitler, and they benefited from the pillaging too. So, where do we draw the line?

germany and its people paid what they owed and suffered many consequences for their actions in addition to them being punished by the aftermath which left their country in ruins.

the greeks on the other hand are trying to get away scott free and have other people foot the bill for their excesses.


To be fair, pretty much the entire wold is/has/continues to live well beyond its means, with government/individual debt already past sustainable levels, so its not like they are the only ones passing the buck.

it is what it is namely a last ditch grasping at straws to let "business as usual" continue for a while longer.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Black guy here, and, now that you mention it...

Believe that went through the Court systems already .....
wait..
Have the Chinese filed yet?

And what about the native Americans? Surely they could sue for HUGE reparations after being almost exterminated by the US.

Native Americans have/are getting reperations. I don't know in what form exactly, but my sister's boyfriend is native american and is apparently getting some free federal-funded benefits after turning 18.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Next you'll be telling me I need to pay for the slave trade or colonialism.

Black guy here, and, now that you mention it...

Believe that went through the Court systems already .....
wait..
Have the Chinese filed yet?

And what about the native Americans? Surely they could sue for HUGE reparations after being almost exterminated by the US.

Native Americans have/are getting reperations. I don't know in what form exactly, but my sister's boyfriend is native american and is apparently getting some free federal-funded benefits after turning 18.

I do not work in BoIA but....

http://www.doi.gov/tribes/benefits.cfm

Indian Af

fairs, through its government-to-government relationship with federally recognized tribes, carries out the Federal Government's unique and continuing relationship with and responsibility to tribes and Indian people. Indian Affairs programs support and assist federally recognized tribes in the development of tribal governments, strong economies, and quality programs. The scope of Indian Affairs programs is extensive and includes a range of services comparable to the programs of state and local government, e.g., education, social services, law enforcement, courts, real estate services, agriculture and range management, and resource protection.

Many Federal agencies other than the Indian Affairs have special programs to serve the American Indian population, i.e., the Indian Health Service (IHS), an adjunct of the Public Health Service, Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). The IHS provides health care services through a network of reservation-based hospitals and clinics. Besides standard medical care, the agency has established programs that specialize in maternal and child health, mental health, substance abuse, home health care, nutrition, etc. The Administration for Native Americans, another agency within HHS, administers programs aimed at strengthening tribal governments and supporting the social and economic development of reservation communities. Other agencies of the Federal Government that serves the special needs of Indian people include the Departments of Housing and Urban Development, Justice, Agriculture, Education, Labor, Commerce and Energy.

All American Indians & Alaska Natives, whether they live on or off reservations, are eligible (like all other citizens who meet eligibility requirements) to receive services provided by the state such as Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Supplemental Security Income (SSI), the Food Stamp Program and the Low Income Heating and Energy Assistance Program (LIHEAP)

That's just off the bat. Believe it was mention before on here by someone a few months back on Dakka. Each tribal members depending on blood purity(?) receives additional funds from financial gains that the Tribe receives ex: casino's

Edit

Native Hawaiian's are not considered Native Americans it seems

Man they're seriously reaching on this one.

I think the western nation should bill greece for the introduction of the failed system called Democracy, the introdycion of greek love , and they are the cause for the problems in the middle east, if they hadn't defeated the Persians we would have a different middle east than now.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Ummm, by this logic there's no reason a generation of young Greeks should pay for a debt they had no part in. Just saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
Next thing you know Greece going to sue all the Allies for not coming to their aid in time during WWII.

Nitpick, but the problem wasn't Britain failing to give aid, the problem was Britain coming to their aid. The Greeks trounced the Italians, and then Churchill started up his Balkan front nonsense... eventually convincing the Greeks to accept British divisions from Africa*. The handful of British troops were nothing compared to what the Nazis could deploy, and they were swept aside. Given Hitler was already gearing up for Barbarossa, it's possible Greece might have passed through the war with a kind of awkward neutrality. Unless Italy wanted another go, I guess.



*And the loss of those troops in Africa cost Britain the chance to rout the Italians before the Germans deployed troops. Churchill... I mean there's this idea that Hitler's interference cost Germany, but Churchill screwed way more.

Don't even ask how much Mongolia and Makedonia owe the world.

 sebster wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Feth this idea.

70 years ago now. Why should a generation of young Germans have to pay for something they had no part in.

Ummm, by this logic there's no reason a generation of young Greeks should pay for a debt they had no part in. Just saying.

Why didn't they have no part in it? Didn't they vote for the parties that caused this whole mess?

Also, Germany doesn't owe the Greeks squat, the issues of the German debts of war to Greece were settled in 1960 when Greece accepted the payment of 115 million Marks as compensation.

Greece should have never been allowed to join the Euro, especially after it was known that they had been forging the economy numbers they were sending to Brussels for 10+ years... Its been way past the time that they are kicked out of the Euro and the EU.

Yeah, let's stop throwing good money after bad and let Greece devolve into the third world country it is rapidly becoming.

...

I'm not sure that's entirely a good idea, but Greece definitely needs a society and government rebuild from the ground up.
Sadly, cultural reforms are slow processes, and will not be aided by just continuing to give them monies.

Lots of double standards going on in here.

1) Germany weaseled out of most of its reparation payments, largely with US and UK backing, as they wanted a strong Germany to oppose the USSR, and damn all the little countries that got torched to the ground. Germany essentially benefited from the largest debt write-off of the 20th century... or probably ever.

2) It is not only war reparations we're talking about, here. Germany forced occupied Greece to lend them money during WW2. This was an actual loan that was never repaid, and not a punishment for the losing side in a war.

3) You say today's Germans shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes of their grandparents... but all Greeks should be held accountable for the financial machinations of a minority?

4) German feeling of moral superiority over lazy Greeks... bull. I've been to both countries. The Germans are the lazy ones, of anything. The German economic miracle happened through their massive debt write-off, not from any talent on their part. Immigrants from southern Europe are amazed at how the 8-hour work day is adhered to in Germany. The rest of us are used to working 12 hours plus weekends for half the German wage or less.

5) Why, if I lend money to a Greek, and the Greek can't pay me back, I'm out of money... but when a German lends money to a Greek, and the Greek can't pay him back, the German will force the entire EU to cough up the money for him? That is literally what is happening here. And because lending to Greece is "risky" the interest rate is high... except that it's not risky at all, is it? The German banks will always be repaid, even if they have to force every EU citizen to pay them back - and this is called "bailing out Greece" when the Greeks really don't see a dime of that money, it goes to private German banks.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Lots of double standards going on in here.

1) Germany weaseled out of most of its reparation payments, largely with US and UK backing, as they wanted a strong Germany to oppose the USSR, and damn all the little countries that got torched to the ground. Germany essentially benefited from the largest debt write-off of the 20th century... or probably ever.

That write-off consisted mostly of the war reparations that were forced onto Germany in the treaty of Versailles and part of the loans received under the Marshall plan. All the war reparations to the smaller countries were agreed and paid with their respective governments.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

2) It is not only war reparations we're talking about, here. Germany forced occupied Greece to lend them money during WW2. This was an actual loan that was never repaid, and not a punishment for the losing side in a war.

And those debts where negotiated and paid in the agreement of 1960 between the German and Greek governments.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

3) You say today's Germans shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes of their grandparents... but all Greeks should be held accountable for the financial machinations of a minority?

They voted for that minority and continued doing so for over 20 years. That is supposed to be how democracy works.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

5) Why, if I lend money to a Greek, and the Greek can't pay me back, I'm out of money... but when a German lends money to a Greek, and the Greek can't pay him back, the German will force the entire EU to cough up the money for him? That is literally what is happening here. And because lending to Greece is "risky" the interest rate is high... except that it's not risky at all, is it? The German banks will always be repaid, even if they have to force every EU citizen to pay them back - and this is called "bailing out Greece" when the Greeks really don't see a dime of that money, it goes to private German banks.

What are you even going on about?! You do realize that if the money that the Greeks receive now goes to pay for bank loans, then that is because they have already received the money from those loans and spent it on other things?

And you do realize that all the private German banks that lent money to Greece before 2010 were forced to suffer a 53% loss on those loans (alongside every other private investor), when Greece had its first debt write off?

Fourth Reich when?

Concerning the debts, there are actually some good arguments that Germany might need to pay, see this SPIEGEL article
The reparations, however, have been pretty much closed for good (legally speaking) with the 2+4 treaties.

Morally, as one of those Germans having been born more than 30 years after the end of WW2, I think we should do our most to repair what is still not mended. We would not even have to pay anything, we just drop billions of current or future debts.

Unfortunately, such an agreement would need years to come to an agreement and Greece has only a couple of days left.
So, of course Greek politicians are pushing for repayments now - they are totally screwed and bancrupt, and would do anything to keep Greece from falling into total chaos.
Hence the boot-licking in the White house and the Kremlin these days.

One can certainly blame the Greek people for allowing/actively supporting/arranging themselves with such a flawed system for so many years, and some Germans say that the Greek should eat the soup they prepared for themselves (German expression), but the EU has a big responsibility in stabilizing that system for so long and not pushing for serious reforms earlier. (German banks and the ECB certainly earned good money on the back of it....)

What I see is old people in the streets, 60%+ unemployment rate with young people, thousands of people losing their home... That should be our first priority.
Instead of milking them dry, we should set up a new Marshall plan.

WW2 is all about money then?

If so should we bill the Greeks for liberating them?

If they don't pay up, should we put the Germans back in charge.

Saying that, its nothing new. Read up about the 'Holocaust industry'.

 Orlanth wrote:
WW2 is all about money then?

If so should we bill the Greeks for liberating them?

If they don't pay up, should we put the Germans back in charge.

Saying that, its nothing new. Read up about the 'Holocaust industry'.

Why read when you can watch?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Lots of double standards going on in here.

1) Germany weaseled out of most of its reparation payments, largely with US and UK backing, as they wanted a strong Germany to oppose the USSR, and damn all the little countries that got torched to the ground. Germany essentially benefited from the largest debt write-off of the 20th century... or probably ever..

That's one view of it.

One might suggest that one of the reasons "we" didn't pile on loads of reparation repayments was that they we did this after WW I and, all things considered, that didn't really work out too well.

Even if only occasionally we do/can learn from the mistakes of the past.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Lots of double standards going on in here.

1) Germany weaseled out of most of its reparation payments, largely with US and UK backing, as they wanted a strong Germany to oppose the USSR, and damn all the little countries that got torched to the ground. Germany essentially benefited from the largest debt write-off of the 20th century... or probably ever.

2) It is not only war reparations we're talking about, here. Germany forced occupied Greece to lend them money during WW2. This was an actual loan that was never repaid, and not a punishment for the losing side in a war.

3) You say today's Germans shouldn't be held accountable for the crimes of their grandparents... but all Greeks should be held accountable for the financial machinations of a minority?

4) German feeling of moral superiority over lazy Greeks... bull. I've been to both countries. The Germans are the lazy ones, of anything. The German economic miracle happened through their massive debt write-off, not from any talent on their part. Immigrants from southern Europe are amazed at how the 8-hour work day is adhered to in Germany. The rest of us are used to working 12 hours plus weekends for half the German wage or less.

I more or less a gree with everything you wrote. Except that eastern europeans working 12h a day /weekend does not make them more efficient or laboursome - it just shows that they need/ want more money than they would get if they'd stick with an 8h job. Mostly to pay for the family back home and to build a house. Romanian friends of mine did exactly that.

Someone who says "I want to have at least 50% of my day for myself, my friends and family", and makes enough money while having that, is not lazy, he is sane.
Istill know a lot of lazy Germans, however, and I would call myself one, too.

In my time in an international bank in Belgium, I was always "Ze German", because I would easily do the job of a Greek, a Portuguese and a Congolese together (and yes, that might be a slight hyperbole to make a point ). That is not a judgement on their character, they were all very nice people (well, except for the Greek guy). But you could see that I came from a background where giving your best, being self-motivated and getting gak done meant more than for those guys. In exchange they were all better at socialising and did not come across as the arrogant bastard that I sometimes seemed to be.

I learned to relax after a while, luckily.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

5) Why, if I lend money to a Greek, and the Greek can't pay me back, I'm out of money... but when a German lends money to a Greek, and the Greek can't pay him back, the German will force the entire EU to cough up the money for him? That is literally what is happening here. And because lending to Greece is "risky" the interest rate is high... except that it's not risky at all, is it? The German banks will always be repaid, even if they have to force every EU citizen to pay them back - and this is called "bailing out Greece" when the Greeks really don't see a dime of that money, it goes to private German banks.

I read this all the time but it does not get truer with repetition. The EU has not spend nearly as much on Greece, as everyone thinks. We have actually made a lot of money on Greece's back, since apart from some EU structural funds (which they did not care to pick, apparently) everything they get nowadays is LOANS.
That is money they need to pay back.
They get loans to pay back loans.
And the interest on those loans.
Which grow everytime they take a new loan, of course.

And Greece could very well say that they do not pay back loans. It is actually what they are threatening to do. It would just mean that they would default, they would leave the Euro and become a third world country right away. Socially a nightmare, of course. But if the more we force them to reform and cut down social achievements, the more "just as unattractive" and hence feasible does a Grexit become.

And yes, more than 60% of the new loans go into the repayment of old ones. But no, German banks are not the major creditors of the Greek state, nor have they ever been.

You can find a list from 2011 (after the first big cut) HERE (German language but the names should be easy enough) Since then, basically all the new funds came from the ECB, the new EU funds and the IMF, and, since interest in other countries is waning, recently again more and more the National bank of Greece. Privat bank loans have dropped from 218 billion in the end of 2009 to 47 billion september 2014 (13,5 billion of that being from German banks).

That is not at all to say that German banks did not profit a lot from this whole situation and that it is totally disgusting.
Nor that I do not like some German-bashing less than my fellow dakkanite.
But you should get your facts/opinions straight, nevertheless.

And I am sorry that you (or your dad or mum) had to work so much. I hope the future will be different for you!

Reparations is a separate argument than the loan payment. Are the loans not made from the EU to Greece correct? Despite Deutsche Uber Alles, its just one country in the EU.

You cannot suspend payments to EU debt because you claim Germany owes you money.

Am I missing something?

 Frazzled wrote:
Reparations is a separate argument than the loan payment. Are the loans not made from the EU to Greece correct? Despite Deutsche Uber Alles, its just one country in the EU.

You cannot suspend payments to EU debt because you claim Germany owes you money.

Am I missing something?

Maybe the EU needs to be governed from Texas after all...

 Frazzled wrote:
Reparations is a separate argument than the loan payment. Are the loans not made from the EU to Greece correct? Despite Deutsche Uber Alles, its just one country in the EU.

You cannot suspend payments to EU debt because you claim Germany owes you money.

Am I missing something?

A lack of good faith? This comes up so often it's just being used to whip up national sentiment in Greece, and to blame an outside force for their woes.

EU needs to drop Greece.