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One of the main issues is that the era of the primarchs is literally ancient history to the high lords of the 40th millenium, and so I don't think that they would be particularly thrilled that these legendary heroes would come back. We as an audience "know" and like the primarchs - the 30th millenium is basically as familiar to us as the 40th. It would be like if the historical Achilles rose from the dead, walked into the UN, and said "Okay guys, I'm really awesome, I'm in charge now, the way you're doing things sucks". It would take incredible political skill for that historical resurrected person to take control of things and project his will. And granted, the Primarchs are truly exceptional and did just that on their home worlds (and even small star empires in the case of Gulliman). But... to do the same thing to the Imperium of Man, one of the most paranoid, sclerotic, vast and entrenched governments in all of science fiction? I don't think that transition would be smooth... and with Abaddon, the Necrons, Ork Waaghs and Tyranids breathing down the Imperium's throat, I think the last thing they need is the political turmoil that would come with a re-emergent Primarch.

I think most of the Primarchs would resign themselves to fighting the enemies of mankind. They would see that the modern Imperium is obviously evil and corrupt, but they might just grit their teeth and bear it because of a sense of loyalty or a sense of pragmatism. But Gulliman... he would try to effect change in the Imperium and become defacto Emperor. He did it before, and it would be out of character if he didn't do it again. But even with his superhuman political skills, could he really do it without significant (and dangerous) political turmoil? In the wake of the Heresy, there was a power vacuum that he stepped into (people wanted an emperor-like figure). No such power vacuum exists in 40k - the government structures are firmly cemented in place. Gulliman would have to tear things down before he could rebuild them.

Clockwork Iron wrote:


Leman Russ: might not do anything at first, but if another armageddon incident happens, or if the high lords give him gak, the dogs of war would be unleashed
.

I disagree, Russ is not Grimnar and would probably De-throne the wolf lord quickly.

Russ was an instrument of death the emperor called upon many times (dog jokes aside) and was used to remove two other primarchs before he was tricked into hunting down magnus (damn you horus!!!!)
Russ wasn't stupid, he had been called to remove primarchs before and didn't question the call when it came again. He was a murderer and his brothers knew it. I don't think Russ really gave half a gak about humans just getting his mission done through violence.

IE:
Protect the human city!
Russ murders all of the attackers while using the city as bait allowing minimal casualties

He might snap at the high lords giving him gak, but really why would they? A first founding chapter that already demonstrated they will fight the inquisition without the primarch, what could the high lords possibly say about russ other than calling him a heretic that would bother him?

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

Clockwork Iron wrote:


Leman Russ: might not do anything at first, but if another armageddon incident happens, or if the high lords give him gak, the dogs of war would be unleashed
.

I disagree, Russ is not Grimnar and would probably De-throne the wolf lord quickly.

Russ was an instrument of death the emperor called upon many times (dog jokes aside) and was used to remove two other primarchs before he was tricked into hunting down magnus (damn you horus!!!!)
Russ wasn't stupid, he had been called to remove primarchs before and didn't question the call when it came again. He was a murderer and his brothers knew it. I don't think Russ really gave half a gak about humans just getting his mission done through violence.

IE:
Protect the human city!
Russ murders all of the attackers while using the city as bait allowing minimal casualties

He might snap at the high lords giving him gak, but really why would they? A first founding chapter that already demonstrated they will fight the inquisition without the primarch, what could the high lords possibly say about russ other than calling him a heretic that would bother him?

He wouldn't de throne grimnar. Grimnar would jump out of the position at first sight of Russ

I think that if any Primarch were to return it could cause issues for the Imperium depending on how they went about rejoining it. Also it would all depend on how the High Lords themselves react seeing as how none would have been around when there were Primarchs. Would they just accept the news or would they be extremely suspect and go to eliminate the Primarch. They might attempt to do that anyway to try and hold on to their power. Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity. I think the Primarchs returning wouldn't cause the issues, it would be the High Lords and the Inquisition.

Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.

That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?

 Khonsu wrote:
Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.

I'm not sure the High Lords are overly sane.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.

That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?

Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.

How lame. So the chaos gods can buff a mortal up to near godlike status, but making a chibi-Primarch is beyond their reach? Jeez, where’s Fabius when you need him.

 Khonsu wrote:
Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.

True, but you might have a Reign of Blood situation start, or something along those lines.

And who would be succeeding who? The High Lords have maintained the Imperium for the past 10 thousand years, would the Primarchs have a claim to it after such a long period of absence? Of course they do, being the sons of the Emperor, but would the High Lords see it like that?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.

True, but you might have a Reign of Blood situation start, or something along those lines.

And who would be succeeding who? The High Lords have maintained the Imperium for the past 10 thousand years, would the Primarchs have a claim to it after such a long period of absence? Of course they do, being the sons of the Emperor, but would the High Lords see it like that?

The Primarchs are living Gods by 40k standards, If you think the High Lords have the pull to resist them you are sorely mistaken.
I doubt Regiments and Marines would fight a true, Living son of the Emperor, A Demi-God.

That is unless they'd somehow convince them he's Chaos consumed or spin some bs tale.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
Tension between the High Lords and the Primarchs is one thing, Secession is another.
No sane mortal would turn on the Primarchs if he deigns to represent the Imperium.

True, but you might have a Reign of Blood situation start, or something along those lines.

And who would be succeeding who? The High Lords have maintained the Imperium for the past 10 thousand years, would the Primarchs have a claim to it after such a long period of absence? Of course they do, being the sons of the Emperor, but would the High Lords see it like that?

I'm not sure the primarchs ever had a claim to lead the Imperium. The Emperor was giving the High Lords power over the primarchs during the Great Crusade, Horus still had operational command of the crusade but policy was being set by the High Lords regardless of the primarchs' protests. I think Guilliman was given as much power as he was after the Heresy because the High Lords were scared, more or less.

EDIT: I forget which HH novel it was in, but there was a mention of how in the Emperor's absence the High Lords speak with his authority, that means over the primarchs as well.

I think Guilliman wouldn't be able to help himself. He would meddle.

 Orblivion wrote:


I'm not sure the primarchs ever had a claim to lead the Imperium. The Emperor was giving the High Lords power over the primarchs during the Great Crusade, Horus still had operational command of the crusade but policy was being set by the High Lords regardless of the primarchs' protests. I think Guilliman was given as much power as he was after the Heresy because the High Lords were scared, more or less.

EDIT: I forget which HH novel it was in, but there was a mention of how in the Emperor's absence the High Lords speak with his authority, that means over the primarchs as well.

Which is very much my point

 Orblivion wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.

That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?

Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.

Wasn't it more like Mephiston doubted that Arkio was Sanguinus reborn and challenged him to test if it could be true? Then the tactical marine -Arkio's brother, right? - steps forward and asks the for the right to challenge Arkio first, which Mephiston allows, and is able to wound Arkio - the blood angel with wings - and black blood spills forth revealing his corruption which Arkio himself was unaware of. Arkio then fled the scene, and long story short, Arkio accepts death as the only possible course of redemption?

 King Pariah wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.

That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?

Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.

Wasn't it more like Mephiston doubted that Arkio was Sanguinus reborn and challenged him to test if it could be true? Then the tactical marine -Arkio's brother, right? - steps forward and asks the for the right to challenge Arkio first, which Mephiston allows, and is able to wound Arkio - the blood angel with wings - and black blood spills forth revealing his corruption which Arkio himself was unaware of. Arkio then fled the scene, and long story short, Arkio accepts death as the only possible course of redemption?

No, Mephiston knew Arkio was tainted. But he wanted to prove to all of the Blood Angels that had chosen to follow Arkio that he was not Sanguinius reborn, that is why Mephiston challenged him to single combat. If Arkio was truly the primarch reborn than he would have no trouble defeating Mephiston. Rafen stepped forward and asked for the privilege, which Mephiston gave him.

 ImAGeek wrote:
He didn't know if the Emperor was around or not. It was a contingency plan for if Terra had already fallen.

Well exactly, but don't you think he will consider terra in its current state fallen already? If he was considering leaving before the emperor was dead, why would he stick around now?

 Flame-Rage wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
He didn't know if the Emperor was around or not. It was a contingency plan for if Terra had already fallen.

Well exactly, but don't you think he will consider terra in its current state fallen already? If he was considering leaving before the emperor was dead, why would he stick around now?

He wasn't considering leaving. He was basically making a new Terra, a new nexus point for the Imperium if Terra and the Emperor had fallen. He wasn't making a new empire, he was making a plan to continue the Imperium if Terra had been lost.

The Inquisitiorial Representative would be automatically suspicious of any freshly returned Primarch. Their reasoning would be simple:- primarchs have fallen before, which means they can fall again. What's more, it's been 10,000 years since the Heresy, plenty of time for a Primarch's character to change. The primarchs are now unknown quantities. They have a store of moral credit from their past heroism, but would be as suspect as any Marine.

The Fabricator-General would likely be neutral. The Mechanicus worship the Emperor as the Machine God, and so they owe no deference to any mere Primarch necessarily. But logic would dictate that a Primarch could be a powerful ally, with potential knowledge of long lost designs and technologies, especially if the returned Primarch is Vulkan. So benign neutrality would be their position, with bias in favour of Vulkan.

The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorium would be in the same position as the Inquisitorial Representative.

The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica would be completely neutral in most cases, but potentially opposed to Russ due to his bias against psykers.

The Grand Provost Marshal of the Arbites would be sympathetic, neutral, or biased against depending on the Primarch. Khan and Russ would be wild cards they wouldn't like, Dorn, Guilliman and the Lion would represent law and order that they'd approve of, and Vulkan or Corax would be neutrals.

The Master of the Astronomican would be in the same position of the Master of the Astra Telepathica, as would the Envoy of the Navigators.

The Ecclesiarch of the Ministorum would be in a dicey position. If he was a true believer, he would instantly make way for and side with any primarch. If he's not, they're the greatest threat to his position. So either devoutly allied with, or opposed to, no in the middle.

The Master of the Administratum would be in general favour of any primarch that did not generally interfere with the smooth administrative running of the Imperium. So they'd most likely be biased against Dorn and Guilliman, but totally cool with someone like Vulkan.

Meanwhile the more transitional members would be reasonably well inclined. So the Sororitas Abbess would be a dedicated Ally of any Primarch as a true believer, the Lord Commander and Admirals would automatically defer to a Primarch as the most skilled commander possible, the Custodes Commander would be a positively inclined neutral, and so on.

As such, Vulkan would seem to be the least disruptive, as he has more natural allies, and few natural enemies, followed by Corax. Russ and Khan would have enemies, but only a large range of them if they started interfering (turning neutral dislike into opposition), which is debatable on whether they would. Guilliman, Dorn, and the Lion on the other hand, whilst they'd naturally receive tremendous opposition from the Master of the Administratum, would actually not have that many enemies. The Master of the Administratum would despise them, but the psykers and mechanicum would be neutral, the Arbites in favour, and the inquisition/assassinorium no better or worse than they would be with any other Primarch.

So to conclude:-

The absolute worse possibility would be Russ deciding he wants to run things. He'd raise practically every Lord against him. The Inquisition/Assassinorium would view him as a threat to the very Imperium, the Masters of the Astronomican, Telepathica, and Navigator Envoy are psykers and have massive issues with him as a result, the Administraum Master would oppose the interference, the Arbites Marshall would dislike the chaos, and the Mechanicus would logically side with the majority.

Russ destroys knowledge, As any common simpleton would, I doubt the Mechanicus would favor him in any way.

 Khonsu wrote:
Russ destroys knowledge, As any common simpleton would, I doubt the Mechanicus would favor him in any way.

If ordered or necessary, sure. This isn't Angron, after all.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Say if Corax or Russ came back, the High Lords could insist that these were not the Sons of the Emperor but some warp spawned mimic sent to sow disunity.

That has actually happened before hasn’t it? I think I’ve read somewhere about how Tzeentch tried to morph a Blood Angel Captain into a replica of Sanguinius, right?

Eh, yes and no. There was a Blood Angel who grew wings through Chaos mutation and claimed to be Sanguinius reborn, but it was only ever dealt with by the Blood Angels themselves. Mephiston saw the corruption immediately and declared him a heretic. "Sanguinius" was defeated in single combat by a tactical marine, I shudder to think how badly he would have fared against Mephiston himself.

I really think this thread is missing something.

IF one of the primarchs came back. First he would come back and first take control of his chapter right. All of the chapters would figure out if he was in fact him and would embrace him. Any chapter that wouldnt?(I cant think of any).

All right, great. Some of the successor chapters might have some deference to their geneseed, but they arent gonna cross the high lords for it(doing so is what made the traitor marines traitor. They followed primarch over Empire)

So now what. Is it assumed that any primarch coming back is going to automatically be installed as a high lord of terra? Are each and every one of the primarchs going to make an issue of things and try and force themselves into power?

Some of the primarchs left. They likely left because they didnt like the way the IoM was being run under the high lords. If they had wanted to try and press the issue and run more of the Empire themselves, they would have done it 10,000 years ago. They are only going to return when the time is desperate.
Some of the primarchs are dead, or close to dead. Even if they came back, I doubt they would immidiately quest for power over all of mankind.


They are the loyalist primarchs because they elected to ultimately serve rather than rule. If they come back, they would probably still elect to serve rather than rule.


Now if they did come back, I think that would cause some counter movements in the EoT. Some of the traitor primarchs that have been sitting around not doing much might band together and work with Abby to renew the long war. That might FORCE the high lords hands into giving any able bodied loyalist primarch some power to fix things.

You're also assuming they would come back with the intention of destroying the Imperium and arguing against that point. That wasn't the question asked.

Think how their return would cause problems that could be catastrophic to the workings of the Imperium.

The return of Roboute Guilliman would throw the biggest wrench into the working of the Imperium. He would see that the system of government that he set up had failed and would begin a reformation. When the high lords of terra resist, this could lead to a destructive conflict as he recalls his legion, the Ultramarines and all of their numerous successor chapters.

None of the other primarchs, except perhaps Dorn, would bother trying to reform the Imperium. They would either continue to serve it while upholding their own ideals or would secede. If Dorn were to try and change the Imperium, he would be defeated. The breakup of his legion and the control of which legions make successor chapters would prevent him from mustering a force. It would be a repeat of the events following the Horus Heresy.

Guiliman's return would alter the Imperium as we know it, whether it turns out better or worse than it is now depends on who wins the inevitable conflict.

 the Signless wrote:

None of the other primarchs, except perhaps Dorn, would bother trying to reform the Imperium.

Russ might consider it, if he felt the High Lords had grown corrupt. If the Inquisition tried to pull a trick on him like they did the Great Wolf on Armageddon, Russ might very conclude they needed to be disbanded, and begin to take....steps.

Remember, Russ is loyal only to the Emperor. If he sees them as having deviated from what he thinks the Emperor would have wanted, he wouldn't hesitate to strike them down.

 Ketara wrote:
Russ might very conclude they needed to be disbanded, and begin to take....steps.

Prospero Burns II: Terra

The wolves unleashed, and this time, it's personal.

 Shidank wrote:

 Khonsu wrote:
Russ destroys knowledge, As any common simpleton would, I doubt the Mechanicus would favor him in any way.

If ordered or necessary, sure. This isn't Angron, after all.

No, he did, during the Heresy. It was one of Magnuses main beefs with him, that he didn't care for the preservation of knowledge, and the Space Wolves would just destroy any receptacles of knowledge they came across.

I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.

How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.

 ImAGeek wrote:

2BlackJack1 wrote:
I think a good question to ask is: Would any citizens really stick up for the High Lords against a primarch? I mean, historical mortal that is practically a minor god in his own right, against some dude on Terran that doesn't care about the average citizen.

How much do average citizens know about the heresy,'the Primarchs, horus, etc? I was under the impression that it's not really common knowledge.

They know as much as we know about God and the Devil.

It's a religious text to them. They know the story that was written down for them by heart and in it the Primarchs are the angelic sons of God who fended off his wayward, less capable, sons and banished them from the Imperium through divine might.