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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yes. Its only in melee but then again just about all poison is melee anyway.
i rarely ever get anything from it but it is at least making him slightly more reliable with his 5 attacks on the charge (remember, he still has a CCW and a slugga with 3 base attacks) than a regular nob.

He still shouldnt be a damn IC as is. There are other races with ICs that dont get many options but it makes no sense that an ork boss guy doesnt have any toyz for killin'

Pain Boys don't have a Slugga for the 2 CCW rule because...reasons?

The issue is cost, and target priority. If it cost 2 ppm instead of 4 it might make sense. At 4 PPM aka 66% of another boy, it just doesn't work that well, because it isn't 66% more effective. Its about 50% more survivable (tons of AP4 in the game), 0% faster, and 0% more killy.

For MSU it is a no brainer. I can turn 2 trukks full of boyz into 3 just by not taking a costly upgrades.

Yeah you get another unit out of the deal, but what happens when you go second and you lose all your trukks on turn 1. Now you got a bunch of 6+ dudes out on foot. Anything that shootas at them will kill them unlease you are running from cover to cover.

Some of the math we try to apply to this game seems out of focus to me sometimes. I am almost always on the 'just buy another X' bandwagon, but i do think the opposite thinkingneeds more credit;

If you roll a 4+ save. You have saved a 10 point model, who now has an oppurtunity to save himself again. Everytime you make that save, you have effectively bought yourself another 10 point model.

If ten Hard Boyz take 10 wounds and you save five, the fourty points spent on the squad fir the armor, saved fifty points in models. The five that died, only cost you twenty points more then just an ork standing there. Those fifty points will now have a chance to roll more saves later, perhaps paying off even more.

Is there any facebook group/page dedicated only to ork tactics and lists?

I definitely prefer putting 'eavy armor on my sluggas if I can afford it, but it's not usually necessary. I do that because they're going to be taking a lot more of a beating getting into combat, even if I put them in a battlewagon. I don't even bother with trukkboyz.

Shootas I usually leave without, as they're much less of a priority to my opponents and they're not taking as many hits. Plus, they're just not as valuable to me.

I never use eavy armor. I prefer more boyz, but I rarely ever run trukk boyz. Only time I have boyz on the field is when I give them shootas and sit them on objectives for when I dont feel like using gretchin.

'eavy armor helps a ton in melee since AP4 or better isnt literally everywhere but since its soooooo common in shooting, theres no point.
One could argue it helps against ignore cover, since except heavy or better flamers or a few choice ignore cover shots, most ignore covers are AP5 or worse except that one model in an army type gun or Tau shenanigans. But our blobs are so big its really hard to actually utilize cover anyway, theyre better off hoofing it the full 6" + D6 around terrain rather than 2D6 through terrain (counting running) and taking the wounds. Least for me that seems to be better.

Trukkboyz kinda demand 'eavy armor. Trukk go boom, i guarantee half if not more of those boyz just went with it. 'Eavy armor drastically reduces those deaths, and being in a vehicle shields them against the AP4 spam for awhile too....well kinda lol yaknow trukk durability.
I would say the same for wagons but every time i tried that, it got too spendy. Ended up as 2 units with 'eavy armor in a BW and basically nothing else, or 3 units in a BW. BWs are a lot less likely to pop before they unload, so its not AS critically important.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Trukkboyz kinda demand 'eavy armor. Trukk go boom, i guarantee half if not more of those boyz just went with it. 'Eavy armor drastically reduces those deaths, and being in a vehicle shields them against the AP4 spam for awhile too....well kinda lol yaknow trukk durability.

When a trukk explodes it has delivered the boyz where they need to be. The casualties from a Trukk Explosion might as well be part of the cost of the trukk. The boyz don't matter all that much anyways. They are just a delivery system for the claw. You don't need 10 boyz to survive getting out of a Trukk. You just need 4-5.

Beyond that, look at the numbers. Trukks cause wounds to 'ard boyz just like normal boyz. If you've got 10 Boyz in the Trukk, statistically it will cause 4 wounds.
With Normal boyz that is 4 * 5/6 = 3.33 unsaved wounds. At 6 ppm that is 20 points.
With Ard boyz that is 4 * 1/2 = 2 unsaved wounds. At 10 ppm that is 20 points.

The added survivability is completely offset by the higher price per ork. The same is true for Close combat against something without an AP. On the other hand 'ard boyz have fewer attacks per point than normal boyz.

Furthermore, by trading 2 Trukks full of 'ard boyz for 3 trukks full of normal boys you dramatically increase the chance of a trukk delivering its full payload.

I prefer just to put them in battlewagons and drastically reduce the chance of there being exploded boyz. I'm looking to run 2 wagons with 20 boyz. The argument is usually that the BWs are more expensive, but per model, it's not that different.

I run BWs at 120 points (110 base, 5 for ram, 5 for BS)
Stuff 20 boyz in there, that's 120 points. Throw in 40 more points for the PK, nob, BP upgrades. Total for one BW with boyz + PK nob is 280 points. Run two BWs and that's 560 points total. Overall, for delivering 40 models, that's a total cost of 14 PPM. A bit pricey, but the BW has much better survivability than a trukk.

Now we can try the same with trukks.
Stuff 10 boyz in a trukk, that's 60 points. Again, toss in the 40 points per nob with PK, and then 35 for the trukk with ram. Total, that's 135. If we want 40 boyz, we'll deploy 4 trukks. That brings the total points to 540. That's a total cost of 13.5 PPM.

So, bringing the same number of orks, trukk boyz only save .5 points per model. However, with the trukks, you're a lot more likely to lose boyz due to explosions, and they can't soak up nearly the same amount of firepower as a BW.

Now, granted, the trukks do bring twice as many PKs to the table. However, I find a squad of 10 boyz with one PK nob extremely fragile. With 20 boyz acting as a meat shield, my PK has a much higher chance of getting into CC, and unless he's challenged out, he has a much better chance of actually getting to swing. With only 10 models, they get wiped off the board extremely easy. Having more PKs sounds good, but it's a waste if they're shot off the board before they can do anything. With two squads of twenty, the enemy has to chew through around 20 orks to get rid of one PK. With four squads of ten, twenty orks will, at best, kill two PK nobs. Plus, I find 10 orks in CC, even with a PK, aren't strong enough to do much. Against pretty much any meq squad they're going to struggle, and they sure as hell won't take down any actual CC squads.

Of course, you don't need to take four trukks. Three trukks does sound a lot better, but again, in my experience and definitely in my Space Wolf heavy meta, 10 boyz just isn't enough to get the job done- if the 10 boyz even get into CC after their trukk explodes. That's why pretty much the only thing I'm gonna put in a trukk is meganobz for a MANz missile.

As an ork player, I highly advise 'eavy armor for trukk boyz. To mitigate costs a little, I put in a min squad of 10 (9 boyz, 1 nob with a bosspole and powerklaw) in a trukk with a ram. Comes out to 175pts. Lately, I've been trying out a kombi-schorcha on the boss nob. It's 10 more points, but it's a scorcha! Anything that insta-hits is pure gold for orks. Saving 20pts from the two other 'ard boyz may seem like not that much, but it helps pay for extra toys. And it gives you enough room to squeeze a DLS warboss in there And, if I'm perfectly honest, when combat rolls around, and I'm about to swing with the klaw I'm thinking "and now for the attacks that actually matter."

Back to 'eavy armor: the armor helps a lot when it comes to trukk explosions (and believe me, there will be trukk explosions) and mob rule rolls. My biggest reason for being pro armor, is that we're orks for crying out loud! We always go last unless we're beating up necrons. The 4+ is great to help make sure your boyz actually get to hit back. I usually don't run large blobs anymore, as touneys around here are timed, but I used to always bring a 29 boy blob of sluggas, a PK nob and a painboy with the BP. It had some great moments of eating ridiculous amounts of firepower and standing there for more. This single unit also cost me almost 400 points, so nowadays I'd rather save the points for more specialized guys, and keep my boyz units super mobile with the trukks. And don't forget, if your running a CAD, those fast trukks are Objective Secured! And they can tank shock guys off objectives too, if you gave them rams!

So is 'eavy armor worth it? Well, if you want to put guys in trukks, I consider it mandatory. If you are going for a blob, and have the points to spend, put it on them. But you should definitely give that blob a painboy too. Always give your blobs painboys.

The only time I ever consider putting 'eavy Armor on a unit of Trukk boyz is if I'm trying to go easy on someone who is struggling to win games, and it usually works pretty well for that.

It is such a dramatic decrease in offensive power for such a marginal increase in defensive power.

When the new codex dropped, I wanted to put 'eavy armor on all of my trukk boyz because of mob rule, and the nature of trukks as a deathtrap. I tried so hard to make it work. It is just such a sub-optimal build for Orks. It is like putting Wrecking Balls on Trukks. It might look good on paper, and 1 in 10 games it might do some work, but in most games you are just flushing points down the toilet.

Right now in 40K, very few armies struggle to kill a unit of Orks. The size of the unit doesn't make that large of a difference. I played an 1850 tourney game the other day when a Tau opponent shot 170+ shots that were all S5+ on turn 2. They put 30+ wounds on a unit of 5 Tankbustas. That is how we win games. We can't hope to survive by making saves that will always be worse than Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Marines, and every other army. We have to find ways to make it to CC where we can compete. The way to do that is more units, not more expensive ones.

If you are already running a sub-optimal list like blobs of boyz walking, then 'eavy armor can yield some bang for your buck, because you lose the nearest boyz to the enemy when you shoot at them, so 'eavy armor can become something like a mobility buff. Or, if you are running a unit of overcosted nobs, 'eavy armor can help you to protect the investment. Another trick is to take a unit of boyz, and put them in the foward most vehicle of a vehicle squadron with something more valuable in trailing vehicles (Tankbustas, Flash Gitz). You know those boyz probably are never going to be delivered to the enemy in their transport, so you can spend some points on 'eavy armor on them to keep their threat profile high enough to be useful to the game.

But in a Trukk, in a game you are trying to win, it might make you feel better, but it doesn't get you closer to winning the game.

if the trukk pops turn1 because you didnt go first, the trukk didnt deliver the boyz. In fact, by killing the trukk the opponent took out a unit of boyz without even trying because now that 3-5 boyz have to hoof it across the board with no armor.
Thats the problem. If the trukk moves at all usually its not a problem if it blows up.

I guess if we're talking about trukk boys I'd ask, how many trukk boys mobs do most of you use in your lists? and do you min/max the other units like tank bustas and burna boys?
And would it make enough of a difference to use mobs of 12 over mobs of 10 boys in trukks?
I've tried min/max myself but I change my list every game because I get to play so little once a month at best.

I've run truckboyz both with 'eavy armor and without and i'm sticking with armor.

However, i've only got 1 squad of them in a list currently, so the picture might change when you have 4+ squads.

I typically use two units of trukk boyz in my lists for my CAD requirement. Honestly, there is not much of a noticeable difference between 12 and 10 man units. The extra points you save can also help buy that power klaw, which will certainly make a difference

I have 15 trukks and have so far been too lazy to divide them out for troops and elites. I guess I'd better get too it.
For elites like burna boys and tank bustas, I know I'm likely the only one around who likes burna boys, what's been more reliable lots of small mobs? or larger? I'm meaning when packed in trukks. I'm thinking to try a list full of small squads spread over several cad. Anyone have any luck with 5 lootas in a trukk? I was thinking to do that just to push them up a weak side of the board or up the middle to work some clean up when the boys get stranded during an enemy retreat. I had the fish heads do that to me and was cough with out the needed ranged attacks.

I usually run between 5 and 7 trukks in my 1850 lists. I rarely use less than 4. Generally it is about 2-3 units of Boyz + PK Nob, and 3-4 units of 5 tankbustas, and 0-1 units of MANZ.

I often reserve my trukks, and try to outflank them via Master of Ambush. It is rare that I deploy any trukks in LOS if my opponent has 1st turn. Only if they don't have much shooting, or I have a Void Shield Generator (and they will have trouble popping the void shields).

I also usually have other Transports. Either Battlewagons, Gunwagons, or a Stompa. And I always have a unit of Lobbas which allows me to null deploy, because very few armies can kill a unit of lobbas in shooting.

When playing fluffier games it isn't uncommon for me to run 6 trukks full of boyz + a trukk of burnas, Manz, or Lootas (Gretchin ride the trukk). It also isn't uncommon for me to run just 1 manz missile and walk the rest of my army in fluffier games.

I put a list together today but I'm not sure I like it. I managed to use all 10 Auxiliary slots at 2500 points. Which leads me to wonder about my list, 1 Ork horde 1 pain boy and 10 aux choices. I am only now looking at storm boys again and the whole list is built around min sized mobs. I'm considering moving some of the aux choices out to a cad as there's no benefit for, say Mek guns, to eat an Aux slot where a min sized storm boys mob would gain the WAAAGH turn one. or would they gain it from the cad as well.? I'm not overly fond of the WAAAAGH Band big formation yet. I do like the idea of shoving 4 or 5 mobs of Storm Boys in the enemies face turn one. Maybe even being in combat before they can react.
My list is based around everything going very fast except for a grot mob and some Mek guns, but it still feels to me to be boys before toys. the warboss has a finking cap to move the mek guns and their pain boy into "good position". Also trying solo Deffkoptas as people seem to favor that. It's just an odd thing to force myself not to use things I would normally like.
I'm wondering if it'll be like cutting the dead weight?

I still kinda like CANS is there any way to get them faster at the other side of the table, by giving them scout or something just as helpfull ?

Kans? Well, I guess the Dred Mob ruleset from FW for cheaper Kans so you can fit more in so more survive lol.

There's also the Great Waaagh! Detachment to DS on a 6.

And the Dread Mob formation which let's them run and charge.

But other than that, can't think of stuff. Unless you take other stuff as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX to keep them alive.

 oldzoggy wrote:
I still kinda like CANS is there any way to get them faster at the other side of the table, by giving them scout or something just as helpfull ?

They wouldn't be on the board for the first turn or two, but you could Outflank them (with Acute Senses) by using the Mogrok's Bossboyz formation. There's no way I can think of to give them Scout or Infiltrate though.

Yeah I know of those options and they are all sucky. even the mek formation only gives you 1d3 units.
Kinda hoped for a secret trick with some sort of warlord trait I didn't know of.

The only other thing I know of that kinda works is the starter set formation. Since they will all be able to deepstrike. But the tax is huge and the one unit of kans has to be kitted out in a crazy way.

The starter set formation? The only one I know is the painmob that doesn't contain kans and has nothing to do with deepstrike.

hes referring to the last year's Grukk formation. That has kans and they deepstrike. Problem is they are fixated on their wargear and numbers, and 3 isnt enough to do much especially when they force you to take 1 of each weapon in the same damn unit. All 3 guns want different targets, so something is either wasting points via overkill or not doing jack squat.

Kans would be better with 'ere we go rules as well that way they could move run and charge each turn with waaagh every turn however they are grots and can't get that rule either. They honestly just need to be much cheaper since they are the equivalent of a t6 2w model without an armour save.

gungo wrote:
Kans would be better with 'ere we go rules as well that way they could move run and charge each turn with waaagh every turn however they are grots and can't get that rule either. They honestly just need to be much cheaper since they are the equivalent of a t6 2w model without an armour save.

Give them a 5+ invuln similar to that of Grot Tanks and they might be ok. As it currently stands vehicles (especially walkers) tend to die too quickly or become useless due to the vehicle damage table. Honestly Kans are better off shooting and then charging in to clean up the remainder units. Deff Dreads are the ones that need Ere We Go and/or some sort of super run to waddle across the battlefield faster.

Deff dreads have ere we go. 5+ would be good on kans but honestly don't think it fits them. I rather just see them priced around 35-40pts each.

Deff dreads and bigger walkers definitely need the 5+ invul.

I think the dreddmob (while trash for being a walker formation) is still the best way to have fast killa kanz. Ere we go for all the walkers is reAly a great bonus...the only problem is the tax of 2 gmorkanauts....but this can prove to be useful if kitted with kff.

gungo wrote:
Deff dreads have ere we go. 5+ would be good on kans but honestly don't think it fits them. I rather just see them priced around 35-40pts each.

Deff dreads and bigger walkers definitely need the 5+ invul.

Deff dredds do not ha ere'we'go. Only time they have it is if part of that terrible dredd mob formations.

Dredds need ere'we'go and be able to be taken in sqaudrons, like everything else can now it seems in newer codex's.