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 Bardiel_03 wrote:

Ashkayel wrote:
Hey guys!

What about 'ard boyz in trukks? Personally, these 195 pts units (slugga boyz with 'eavy armor, PK BP nob) are almost mandatory in my lists. They are oftentimes the MVPs. The 'eavy armor mitigate the explodes results and keep them alive against small arms, in close combat and against mob rule. I try to put the trukks in cover on T1 and if they survive, I turbo-boost to the next cover. I use them a bit like MANz missiles except I try to avoid the explodes results (so I keep the trukk in cover when possible). They are more mobile than MANz, have Objective Secured, etc.

I play mostly against DE, Necrons, Skitarii and Space Marines (Imperial Fists and DA). They have a lot of S8+ AP2- so MANz are not very interesting for me. I prefer 'ard boyz trukks!

What you guys think? In the original post boyz are listed as yellow - average. I would list 'ard boyz in trukks as blue - very good at least.

they are the backbone of my army.
I always field my boyz with heavy armor they are surprisingly durable and the truck is super fast if it's not blow up in the first round.

I play against a lot of daemon players in my meta - Fateweaver is almost an auto include in any daemons army. Also, I haven't played since Magnus's release, but that just adds to the AP4 psychic powers that evaporate orks. My current MSU orks list has a lot of great matchups against top-tier competitive lists. It's only 2 weaknesses I've seen are Fateweaver (and now Magnus) and Target Lock Tau. Adding heavy armor doesn't fix these weaknesses.

Hard boyz could work for you! I just don't see anyone I play with going: "Orks with a 4+?! I can't handle that."

6+ vs 4+ only helps if bolters were their answer. Yes - it'll help against Gladius, but that's the only competitive list I can think of that cares about a 4+ (and most of their RBs have Assault Cannons anyhow). I also don't think MANz boys are very helpful for the reasons Ashkayel mentioned. Competitive lists will have AP2 and quite possibly AP2 @ S8.

MSU is just too easy to do with the Orkurion. Might as well use it. My 2 cents.

Saythings wrote:

 Bardiel_03 wrote:

Ashkayel wrote:
Hey guys!

What about 'ard boyz in trukks? Personally, these 195 pts units (slugga boyz with 'eavy armor, PK BP nob) are almost mandatory in my lists. They are oftentimes the MVPs. The 'eavy armor mitigate the explodes results and keep them alive against small arms, in close combat and against mob rule. I try to put the trukks in cover on T1 and if they survive, I turbo-boost to the next cover. I use them a bit like MANz missiles except I try to avoid the explodes results (so I keep the trukk in cover when possible). They are more mobile than MANz, have Objective Secured, etc.

I play mostly against DE, Necrons, Skitarii and Space Marines (Imperial Fists and DA). They have a lot of S8+ AP2- so MANz are not very interesting for me. I prefer 'ard boyz trukks!

What you guys think? In the original post boyz are listed as yellow - average. I would list 'ard boyz in trukks as blue - very good at least.

they are the backbone of my army.
I always field my boyz with heavy armor they are surprisingly durable and the truck is super fast if it's not blow up in the first round.

I play against a lot of daemon players in my meta - Fateweaver is almost an auto include in any daemons army. Also, I haven't played since Magnus's release, but that just adds to the AP4 psychic powers that evaporate orks. My current MSU orks list has a lot of great matchups against top-tier competitive lists. It's only 2 weaknesses I've seen are Fateweaver (and now Magnus) and Target Lock Tau. Adding heavy armor doesn't fix these weaknesses.

Hard boyz could work for you! I just don't see anyone I play with going: "Orks with a 4+?! I can't handle that."

6+ vs 4+ only helps if bolters were their answer. Yes - it'll help against Gladius, but that's the only competitive list I can think of that cares about a 4+ (and most of their RBs have Assault Cannons anyhow). I also don't think MANz boys are very helpful for the reasons Ashkayel mentioned. Competitive lists will have AP2 and quite possibly AP2 @ S8.

MSU is just too easy to do with the Orkurion. Might as well use it. My 2 cents.

ya it depends on the local meta. I don't have any daemon player within the friends i play with and we don't play a lot of competitive lists.
In general i like having my boyz with armor so: if the truck explode i don't lose half of them, i can save hits from mob rules and in general there aren't a lot of ap 4 or less weapons in the lists i play against.

But vs a list with a lot of ap 4 or less i can see how that heavy armor is just a waste and it's much better to have more naked orks.

what do you think of the orkurion and how do you play it? I never had the opportunity to try it.

 Bardiel_03 wrote:


what do you think of the orkurion and how do you play it? I never had the opportunity to try it.

It's not really competitive and must be taken in very big games as the orkurion itself is approx 1000 points and lacks every sort of firepower. Furthemore it only grants to waaagh every turn which is not really great. The Orkurion becomes nice if you also include the council of the waaagh so you can waaagh every turn but with ghazgkull's one. That means all the orks are fearless!!! Even gretchin (there's a runtherd) and mek gunz if you stick with them the mandatory mek of the formation. This is the real bonus of that formation, and also ghaz himself has his 2+ invuln all the game. However with the council we're talking about 1900 points so it can really be taken in a 2500 points game or the list terribly suffer the lack of shooting units whitout being particularly strong either. So in 2500 or higher games other choises are surely more competitive but the orkurion+council+some auxiliaries can be quite fun to play. My list at 2500 with these things is:

Orkurion:

Warboss in megarmor, mek, 6 squads of 10 boyz in trukks with pk nob, 3 meganobz in trukk with a killsaw, 10 gretchin

Council:

Ghaz, grotsnik, big mek with kff, warboss in megarmor, warboss in ea with big choppa, 3 nobz with waagh banner

Auxiliaries:

Battlewagon with a big shoot and ram (for the council)

Tre units of 5 tankbustas in trukks with 3 bomb squigs each

5 lobbas with 3-5 ammo runts, 2 single traktor kannons with ammo runts.

You should have approx 60 points spared to complete the list, you can drop bomb squigs if you dont' like them, equip with the pk also the warboss in eavy armor or swap the meganobz with cheaper nobz. I think is mandatory to take the council with basic upgrades, not spending many points on it, and the pks from ghaz, grotsnik and a warboss are enough imho as you also have 6 nobz with pk, another warboss and the meganobz.

Do you guys sometimes play unbound lists or you always play battleforged armies?

I've just played 2 small games (750 and 850 pts) against Imperial Fists and DE that ended before turn 3 (I stole the initiative on game 1, tho). Here's my MSU list:

Big mek with EA, Da Finkin Cap and rokkit launcha
2x 6 bikers (with nob BC/PK and BP)
5-6x lone kopta
0-2x lone skorcha buggy
4-5x lone kannon (2 extra crew, ammo runt)
2x 5 loota squad

I park my kannons and lootas in multiple ruins for 4+ cover (or 3+ if I got the warlord trait), I even infiltrated 3 kannons on the second game. I placed 3 grots in front of each kannon, and 1 behind. That's a pretty resilient 27 pts unit that can deliver the dakka! I put my big mek in one of the kannons.

That's a pretty shooty, mobile and resilient list! Too many low points targets. The only problem is it's unbound. What do you guys think?

 Blackie wrote:

Spoiler:

It's not really competitive and must be taken in very big games as the orkurion itself is approx 1000 points and lacks every sort of firepower. Furthemore it only grants to waaagh every turn which is not really great. The Orkurion becomes nice if you also include the council of the waaagh so you can waaagh every turn but with ghazgkull's one. That means all the orks are fearless!!! Even gretchin (there's a runtherd) and mek gunz if you stick with them the mandatory mek of the formation. This is the real bonus of that formation, and also ghaz himself has his 2+ invuln all the game. However with the council we're talking about 1900 points so it can really be taken in a 2500 points game or the list terribly suffer the lack of shooting units whitout being particularly strong either. So in 2500 or higher games other choises are surely more competitive but the orkurion+council+some auxiliaries can be quite fun to play. My list at 2500 with these things is:

Orkurion:

Warboss in megarmor, mek, 6 squads of 10 boyz in trukks with pk nob, 3 meganobz in trukk with a killsaw, 10 gretchin

Council:

Ghaz, grotsnik, big mek with kff, warboss in megarmor, warboss in ea with big choppa, 3 nobz with waagh banner

Auxiliaries:

Battlewagon with a big shoot and ram (for the council)

Tre units of 5 tankbustas in trukks with 3 bomb squigs each

5 lobbas with 3-5 ammo runts, 2 single traktor kannons with ammo runts.

You should have approx 60 points spared to complete the list, you can drop bomb squigs if you dont' like them, equip with the pk also the warboss in eavy armor or swap the meganobz with cheaper nobz. I think is mandatory to take the council with basic upgrades, not spending many points on it, and the pks from ghaz, grotsnik and a warboss are enough imho as you also have 6 nobz with pk, another warboss and the meganobz.

I was tinkering with battlescribe to make a orkurion list but i couldn't make a list that i like with less than 2k points :\ and we usually play 1500 or 1850 points.
Ghaz seems an obligatory choice in particular with the modified mob rule, but the council cost a lot of points, if only gw made ghaz as a choice instead of a normal warboss in the waaagh band, that would have been really nice.
I was thinking about taking waagh ban and council of waagh without any upgrade apart from some pk, the meganobz instead of the nobz in the waagh band and a battlewagon for the waagh coucil and try and use the rest of the point to take bikers gunz and some support firepower. Use the boyz of the waagh band as "ork-shield" and try to run the enemy down.

Have you tried to run an orkurion without ghaz?

 Bardiel_03 wrote:


Have you tried to run an orkurion without ghaz?

No, I haven't. That's because the bonus that allows to waaagh every turn seems pretty useless to me and makes sense only if also grants a fearless army. The problem with the orkurion is the high number of non competitive units that are part of the formation, with 6 mandatory boyz squads you can only go with trukks as dedicated transports because if you go footslogging you'll need over 100 boyz and a greentide would be much better. But since your boyz have trukks the bonus to waaagh every turn is wasted. Without the council there's no way to use ghaz waaagh every turn so a CAD (or the orks codex detachment if you need 3 HQs) would be a better choise than the orkurion. Anyway the council is a huge points sink so it is crucial to take it with minimum upgrades. Ghaz, grotsnik and the nobz are stock (the banner is mandatory for the formation), the big mek without a KFF is a 35 points tax so i'd take one, and another megarmored warboss is enough, that's why i equip with a big choppa the second warboss. Also because otherwise i'd never use that wonderful model, a warboss without a pk is useless in any other possible kind of list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ashkayel wrote:
Do you guys sometimes play unbound lists or you always play battleforged armies?

I've just played 2 small games (750 and 850 pts) against Imperial Fists and DE that ended before turn 3 (I stole the initiative on game 1, tho). Here's my MSU list:

Big mek with EA, Da Finkin Cap and rokkit launcha
2x 6 bikers (with nob BC/PK and BP)
5-6x lone kopta
0-2x lone skorcha buggy
4-5x lone kannon (2 extra crew, ammo runt)
2x 5 loota squad

I park my kannons and lootas in multiple ruins for 4+ cover (or 3+ if I got the warlord trait), I even infiltrated 3 kannons on the second game. I placed 3 grots in front of each kannon, and 1 behind. That's a pretty resilient 27 pts unit that can deliver the dakka! I put my big mek in one of the kannons.

That's a pretty shooty, mobile and resilient list! Too many low points targets. The only problem is it's unbound. What do you guys think?

If you run deffkoptas and kannons as single units, then bring just 2x5 bikes and drop a single kopta you would have the points to include 2 min units of gretchin, making the list legal.

 Blackie wrote:

Ashkayel wrote:
Do you guys sometimes play unbound lists or you always play battleforged armies?

I've just played 2 small games (750 and 850 pts) against Imperial Fists and DE that ended before turn 3 (I stole the initiative on game 1, tho). Here's my MSU list:

Big mek with EA, Da Finkin Cap and rokkit launcha
2x 6 bikers (with nob BC/PK and BP)
5-6x lone kopta
0-2x lone skorcha buggy
4-5x lone kannon (2 extra crew, ammo runt)
2x 5 loota squad

I park my kannons and lootas in multiple ruins for 4+ cover (or 3+ if I got the warlord trait), I even infiltrated 3 kannons on the second game. I placed 3 grots in front of each kannon, and 1 behind. That's a pretty resilient 27 pts unit that can deliver the dakka! I put my big mek in one of the kannons.

That's a pretty shooty, mobile and resilient list! Too many low points targets. The only problem is it's unbound. What do you guys think?

If you run deffkoptas and kannons as single units, then bring just 2x5 bikes and drop a single kopta you would have the points to include 2 min units of gretchin, making the list legal.

Well the problem is that kills the whole concept of MSU. 5 koptas are bad together, unless joined by a HQ. Kannons would require at least a mek for Ld 7 .

So you guys never play unbound? My group has no problem with that (yet?) but I'd like to know what other people think.

Everyone in this thread seems to think that the flexibility you gain with Unbound isn't worth the loss of Objective Secured. Personally, I think they ought to try more often. Orks, especially, could probably do some really cool unbound lists, with really neat themes.

The issue with unbound is that a lot of people wont play against it.

Besides the stigma of using Unbound, Objective Secured is pretty damn important for us. Since our Orkurion is effectively unusable in anything lower than 2000+ games, we don't really have much of a way to deal with other armies and their equivalents if we go unbound. Taking multiple CAD's just ends up being more prudent since grots are dirt cheap troop filler if needed and their low model profile makes them great for hiding in terrain near objectives. Obj. Sec makes it so that we have that edge over Decurion Necrons camping on objectives or be able to contest against Gladius marines. Most viable Ork lists can be done via CAD spamming so Unbound is kind of unnecessary.

Ashkayel wrote:


Well the problem is that kills the whole concept of MSU. 5 koptas are bad together, unless joined by a HQ. Kannons would require at least a mek for Ld 7 .

So you guys never play unbound? My group has no problem with that (yet?) but I'd like to know what other people think.

You're right, MSU is the way to go with orks, but you can take a squadron of warbuggies instead of deffkoptas and kannons don't really need a mek as they are in the backfield and the bikes should pressure the opponent that in so small games probably doesn't have the units to deal with either the bikes and the kannnons. Also MSU works in standard games, at 1500 or 1850 many armies have a lot of fire power so deploying many expendable units increases their survivability, but in 850 or lower points games 3 fast attacks and 3 heavy supports are absolutely enough to play decent games.

I won't play unbound or against unbound lists because i like armies with weakness, it's a tactical game. Also i don't like armies full with the same units, many unbound players like only 2-3 units and go with a huge number of them. If you play lower points games like 750-850 an unbound list could be acceptable but in standard games i would refuse to play against. Also if you want 6 hqs (maybe 9), 6 elites, 6 heavy supports or fast attacks you just can take two CADs or some formation as the bullyboyz that allows you to bring three units of meganobz without wasting elite slots. With my armies, including the orks, i never had the temptation or the desire to play unbound.

Nice comments guys, thanks!

MANz can also take battle wagons as a dedicated transport, further saving you heavy support slots.

 slip wrote:
MANz can also take battle wagons as a dedicated transport, further saving you heavy support slots.

its a damn shame that Battlewagons aren't good :(

Personally my list is usually either Warbike Heavy with Warboss on bike with DLS or I Take 3 Battlewagons with Rams/Rokkitz and fill them with Boyz with Nob/PK and just bum rush them up the field as quick as possibly while utilizing cover and then unload them and hope that enough of them get there to overwhelm my opponents gun line.

The best I have done was a tournament where I did a bit of both. 3 Battlewagonz crammed with Boyz and a Nob PK and 2 big blobs of Warbikers 1 with a Warboss DLS PK and Painboy and the other just nob PK. I got lucky on my first turn and got Nightfighting, My Bikes ran forward and shot the hell out of him, drew his entire return fire (they jinked with a 3+ jink save) lost very little and on my 2nd turn the battlewagonz filled with boyz arrived and unloaded their cargo, moved 6, unloaded 6, charged 2D6 with rerolls

The only army I had a hard time with was stupid SM with the Bolter drill army and some special surprises. Decimated my Bikers turn 1 (No Night Fighting or Jink) and came down to a single point at the end of the game.

BTW That tournament didn't have ANY Eldar so that would have greatly changed my record, and the Tau player was relatively new and didn't expect my Bikes and Wagonz to go so fast and unload so many bodies.

They are good. Just not as an offensive weapon. They are literally tanks. It's by far our best counter to tau shooting.

 cranect wrote:
The issue with unbound is that a lot of people wont play against it.

Exactly right! If my group allowed unbound I'd play 5+ BikerBosses with a PainBoy in a unit of four NobBikers. And single Kannonz and Lobbas.

It's be great!! But alas not a single person wants to play Unbound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bardiel_03 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

Spoiler:

It's not really competitive and must be taken in very big games as the orkurion itself is approx 1000 points and lacks every sort of firepower. Furthemore it only grants to waaagh every turn which is not really great. The Orkurion becomes nice if you also include the council of the waaagh so you can waaagh every turn but with ghazgkull's one. That means all the orks are fearless!!! Even gretchin (there's a runtherd) and mek gunz if you stick with them the mandatory mek of the formation. This is the real bonus of that formation, and also ghaz himself has his 2+ invuln all the game. However with the council we're talking about 1900 points so it can really be taken in a 2500 points game or the list terribly suffer the lack of shooting units whitout being particularly strong either. So in 2500 or higher games other choises are surely more competitive but the orkurion+council+some auxiliaries can be quite fun to play. My list at 2500 with these things is:

Orkurion:

Warboss in megarmor, mek, 6 squads of 10 boyz in trukks with pk nob, 3 meganobz in trukk with a killsaw, 10 gretchin

Council:

Ghaz, grotsnik, big mek with kff, warboss in megarmor, warboss in ea with big choppa, 3 nobz with waagh banner

Auxiliaries:

Battlewagon with a big shoot and ram (for the council)

Tre units of 5 tankbustas in trukks with 3 bomb squigs each

5 lobbas with 3-5 ammo runts, 2 single traktor kannons with ammo runts.

You should have approx 60 points spared to complete the list, you can drop bomb squigs if you dont' like them, equip with the pk also the warboss in eavy armor or swap the meganobz with cheaper nobz. I think is mandatory to take the council with basic upgrades, not spending many points on it, and the pks from ghaz, grotsnik and a warboss are enough imho as you also have 6 nobz with pk, another warboss and the meganobz.

I was tinkering with battlescribe to make a orkurion list but i couldn't make a list that i like with less than 2k points :\ and we usually play 1500 or 1850 points.
Ghaz seems an obligatory choice in particular with the modified mob rule, but the council cost a lot of points, if only gw made ghaz as a choice instead of a normal warboss in the waaagh band, that would have been really nice.
I was thinking about taking waagh ban and council of waagh without any upgrade apart from some pk, the meganobz instead of the nobz in the waagh band and a battlewagon for the waagh coucil and try and use the rest of the point to take bikers gunz and some support firepower. Use the boyz of the waagh band as "ork-shield" and try to run the enemy down.

Have you tried to run an orkurion without ghaz?

No for the reasons stated by other people. My Coucil led Orcurion just won a decisive victory against Ann execellent Tau player last night. Finally got the list tweaked just right. Fearless Orks are just too valuable. One of the mobs at the end of the gamd was just a single grot and the runtherder. Still able to claim the opponents objectives and grant Linebreaker. Right next to them were two mobs of three Shootas each doing the exact same thing.

MAWB with my full unit of KMK's allowed them to maneuver every turn to make sure all five could fire. Mek attached to the Lobbas made that unit Fearless. Top of turn 3 three units of BS-boosted Fire Warriors shot the Council 99 times!! Extra shot due to an Etheral.

Between all the 2+ saves and FNP the Council only took five wounds and lost a single MAWBoss. After that the game was decided.

Last week on turn 5 my two deffkoptas captured an objective on bottom of the fifth which was the tie breaker!

It's a long slog across the board but that's why the Council is in a BW and the rest of the army is firing along the way.

Fearless is just too powerful to not bring Ghaz.

Heh. I'm just imagining the Mega Armoured Boss just hauling the KMKs around manually in order to maneuver them. It's a rather funny thought.

I've participated in a local 2-day tourney with my bully boyz. Here are the batreps if anyone's interested:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/713174.page#9115665

 koooaei wrote:
I've participated in a local 2-day tourney with my bully boyz. Here are the batreps if anyone's interested:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/713174.page#9115665

Nice, good job!

So you never lost your warboss on bike? He always starts the game with the single kopta? I'm surprised they didn't kill him. Or do you always join a MANz squad after a few turns?

He's always joined a kopta. The squad's surprisingly hard to kill with 5 t6 wounds and a warboss's lukky stikk. Also, i've tried to not stick them out when it wasn't needed so it'd take the opponent to get overly exposed to manz counter-attack if they tried to kill the boss. I guess he's just not worth killing - read, not easy enough to kill - when there are 3 unit of meganobz nearby.

Has anyone tried to use the painmob effectively or ran this formation before? I'm thinking about using it for my main attack force and was wondering how well it worked.

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone tried to use the painmob effectively or ran this formation before? I'm thinking about using it for my main attack force and was wondering how well it worked.

Used it once with a nobz bikerstar, didn't get the chance to use the special rule as you must be already in CC at the beginning of your turn. Pretty situational IMO, but could work. The deff dread tax isn't really worth the special rule I guess. And nobz on foot or on bike aren't competitive either, so... But I might try it again sometime, we never know.

I can't help but think that GW made this formation to sell their endless supplies of deff dread and nobz­...

And they could have succeeded if they actually gave something useful to any of those.

 koooaei wrote:
And they could have succeeded if they actually gave something useful to any of those.

Just what I was thinking. If they wanted to sell the models with rules then they would have used less crappy rules.

Ashkayel wrote:

 Glitcha wrote:
Has anyone tried to use the painmob effectively or ran this formation before? I'm thinking about using it for my main attack force and was wondering how well it worked.

Used it once with a nobz bikerstar, didn't get the chance to use the special rule as you must be already in CC at the beginning of your turn. Pretty situational IMO, but could work. The deff dread tax isn't really worth the special rule I guess. And nobz on foot or on bike aren't competitive either, so... But I might try it again sometime, we never know.

I can't help but think that GW made this formation to sell their endless supplies of deff dread and nobz­...

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Maybe we'll luck out and dreads will suddenly become awesome in 8th. Unlikely, but one can hope.

 Cleatus wrote:


Maybe we'll luck out and dreads will suddenly become awesome in 8th. Unlikely, but one can hope.

The main problem with Dreads (and vehicle walkers in general) is that they die to Grav too easily. If AV gets dropped and 40k goes to a wound chart like AoS, then Dreads are going to be quite good... quite good indeed.

Let dreads take warbikes

Problem solved

 slip wrote:
Let dreads take warbikes

Problem solved

Let everything take warbikes. Even the warbikers could use a second one!

 koooaei wrote:

 slip wrote:
Let dreads take warbikes

Problem solved

Let everything take warbikes. Even the warbikers could use a second one!

HQs being able to take a rokkit pack would be nice. But wouldn't solve on its own the whole "ork codex is subpar" problem...

Yeah, we have a couple good units but lack the overall quality.