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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 07:32:10
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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First off, I have to say I tend to agree with OP on one thing. It's hard to hacefun playing against Tau.
It's not so much that it's hard to deal with them as it is that Tau just reduce the tactical aspect of the game by a pretty large margin.
Because they can get AP 2 on just about any unit worth fielding, armor saves become something you don't evem bother with when making a list.
You can't outmanoeuvre what isn't manoeuvering and that's really all I have to say about that.
Markerlights, boy do I hate them. Because of them, any cover that does not block LOS gets reduced to a hindrance as opposed to a strategic asset that poses both advantage and disadvantage to both players. It works almost exclusively to the benefit of Tau players. This wouldn't be so much of a problem if there was any sort of counterplay or downside to them except for "go stand where they can't see you". Supposedly, them being heavy counts as being a downside but their range is big enough that they don't have to bother moving unless you can block LOS.
In tournaments it's even worse. They are not played on a zone mortalis, quite the opposite actually, so even that blocking LOS is stripped away from you as an option.
"Having to work around that" is not adding strategy to the game as I've heard some people claim. Guess what, if you strip several layers of strategy and then "add" 1, that still leaves you with reduced tactical layers.
Tau are like campers with a wall hack aiming down the only corridor that can acces them. The only "strategy" you can relibablely use is not going through the corridor. There might be one crate in that corridor he can't shoot through but I wouldn't consider it a reliable wau to deal with him.
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You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 08:25:24
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Here we go again and the worst part is that the Tau player didn't even take a "Power List" as people call it, the Fish of Fury approach has been around since the Tau have been and has always been decent, also I am somewhat confused by the OP's comments, you cant have an objective within 12 inches of the board so how was he getting his objectives while "sitting on the edge of the table"? If you don't have anything designed to get in close to shooty ARMIES because its not just Tau that can pull it off then you might want to change some things up in your list so this doesn't happen again. And a few other things:
-The Tau are NOT OP, seriously people stop complaining about it, since 7th they have severely dropped in power.
-Markerlights have been around since the start of the Tau and they are something that makes the Tau unique. Also guess what almost every army has something that ignores cover and access to something that others don't, except IoM armies they have everything. However I do agree that going back to "a Marker Light to remove a single point of cover" approach wouldn't be the end of the world. But if you guys are really having issue taking out a T3 or 4 Model with a 4+ save at best then maybe something needs to change, there are more ways to handle them then just "stand out of line of sight" if you look around the tactica.
-Not all Tau players run Gunlines, in fact the vast majority I have seen utilize their mobility in either Vehicles or Suits to the best of their ability and in fact Gunlines STRUGGLE in this edition more often then not.
-Yes we have access to AP2 Weaponry but so do Space Marines, IG ect. The argument can not be made soley for the Tau.
-Funny you say how its worse in Tournaments when I don't believe Tau has ever won one of the bigger ones since 7th's inception?
The point im trying to make is instead of coping out saying "Tau are just OP" maybe look around other threads and such before hand to get some tactical ideas? I know that myself and other Tau players who often play other armies have posted lots of tactics, ideas ect. on here. I don't know much about the Harlequins but if you have Dark Eldar in your army why not take advantage of the masses of Dark Lances you can get? Not only would it knock all their armor down to 12 and give you some reliable anti-tank but would also keep fire off of your Harlequins. Wyches in Raiders with Haywire or anything with Haywire for that matter is great against Mech lists in general.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 08:30:38
19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 09:47:30
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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gmaleron wrote:Here we go again and the worst part is that the Tau player didn't even take a "Power List" as people call it, the Fish of Fury approach has been around since the Tau have been and has always been decent, also I am somewhat confused by the OP's comments, you cant have an objective within 12 inches of the board so how was he getting his objectives while "sitting on the edge of the table"? If you don't have anything designed to get in close to shooty ARMIES because its not just Tau that can pull it off then you might want to change some things up in your list so this doesn't happen again. And a few other things:
-The Tau are NOT OP, seriously people stop complaining about it, since 7th they have severely dropped in power.
-Markerlights have been around since the start of the Tau and they are something that makes the Tau unique. Also guess what almost every army has something that ignores cover and access to something that others don't, except IoM armies they have everything. However I do agree that going back to "a Marker Light to remove a single point of cover" approach wouldn't be the end of the world. But if you guys are really having issue taking out a T3 or 4 Model with a 4+ save at best then maybe something needs to change, there are more ways to handle them then just "stand out of line of sight" if you look around the tactica.
-Not all Tau players run Gunlines, in fact the vast majority I have seen utilize their mobility in either Vehicles or Suits to the best of their ability and in fact Gunlines STRUGGLE in this edition more often then not.
-Yes we have access to AP2 Weaponry but so do Space Marines, IG ect. The argument can not be made soley for the Tau.
-Funny you say how its worse in Tournaments when I don't believe Tau has ever won one of the bigger ones since 7th's inception?
The point im trying to make is instead of coping out saying "Tau are just OP" maybe look around other threads and such before hand to get some tactical ideas? I know that myself and other Tau players who often play other armies have posted lots of tactics, ideas ect. on here. I don't know much about the Harlequins but if you have Dark Eldar in your army why not take advantage of the masses of Dark Lances you can get? Not only would it knock all their armor down to 12 and give you some reliable anti-tank but would also keep fire off of your Harlequins. Wyches in Raiders with Haywire or anything with Haywire for that matter is great against Mech lists in general.
It's not about "having X or Y", it's about being able to put X on every unit you own and being able to give Y to any weapon.
Yes I might have A weapon with ignores cover but I sure as hell don't have the possibility to give every single weapon in my army ignores cover, especially not Str 7/8 AP2 large blasts.
They might not be OP but they sure as hell are boring to play against and require very little skill to actually command. A Tau player once let me play his army to 'truely show me that Tau weren't as easy as I made them out to be'. Let's just say it didn't turn out as he had planned.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/13 09:55:53
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 09:49:40
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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I've found aircraft to be quite effective vs Tau (Mainly cause my buddy has just started Tau and doesn't really have anything in the way of AA. Muahahaha)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 09:58:08
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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angelofvengeance wrote:I've found aircraft to be quite effective vs Tau (Mainly cause my buddy has just started Tau and doesn't really have anything in the way of AA. Muahahaha)
Until he figures he can give just about any model skyfire and interceptor for 25 points.
Enjoy that riptide shredding your plane before being able to do as much as shoot once.
Again, not saying it's OP, just just annoying as feth.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/13 09:59:45
You don't have to be happy when you lose, just don't make winning the condition of your happiness. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 10:45:30
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Dakka Veteran
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I would like to put in a note that doesnt seem to be answered:
You can take a team of 2 crisis suits as a part of the bodyguard squad that DOESNT count towards the force org chart.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 11:22:24
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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DaPino wrote:It's not about "having X or Y", it's about being able to put X on every unit you own and being able to give Y to any weapon.
Yes I might have A weapon with ignores cover but I sure as hell don't have the possibility to give every single weapon in my army ignores cover, especially not Str 7/8 AP2 large blasts.
They might not be OP but they sure as hell are boring to play against and require very little skill to actually command. A Tau player once let me play his army to 'truely show me that Tau weren't as easy as I made them out to be'. Let's just say it didn't turn out as he had planned.
You fail to take into account that you have to pay a good number of points in order to do that on T3 or 4 models with either a 5+ or 4+ save, if you really are having issues taking them out then there is a lot more wrong with your list. And that is your opinion that they are boring to play against and your completely wrong that they don't take skill to play. Its GUNLINES as a whole that have little to no tactical ability don't make it just the Tau.
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19th Krieg Siege Army 7500pts.
40k/HH Night Lords 5000pts.
Orks Waaaghmacht Spearhead 2500pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 11:35:53
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Dispassionate Imperial Judge
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I play tau sometimes, and one of the annoying things I find is people with a longer range than me. The vast majority of tau shooting only really works well at around 36". The firepower at that range is colossal, but over 36" I have very little, and I really don't want to be the one moving TOWARDS the enemy!
If you can build a list with a longer range than that, stay more than 36" away, and have some decent, fast counterattack units it's becomes quite scary for the tau player.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 12:39:36
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Well, as many said before, gunlines are rather struggling than winning easily in the new edition, be that because of maelstorm where they truly suck, or because the game's style changed into a quicker - less "shoot and nothing else" - way.
And the problem that it's not fun to play against Tau is rather silly, any stand-and-shoot list is boring to play against, not just Tau.
Now you can try to solve that with more range, yay, what was that again, boring?...or by other means. To find those is an elementary part of tactic development anda thing that is quite fun to me, trying new concepts on the field and have them work is a reward not only of good dice, but also planning, understanding what your army and your enemy's is capable of and then finding the right blade that pierces the enemy's defenses.
Tau armies are scary as they're able to adapt to nearly any enviorment, armies that have a build going good against any kind of enemy are scary, but not unbeatable. They're a tough cookie, no doubt, but looking at the Harlequins' dex and the options they have...I fear them more honestly.
Tried to play Troupes with Fusion Pistols? Deep-Striking them next to the targets you want to annihilate? Yes, interceptor let's him fire at you, if he can get a line of sight..and no markerlights in there. So just let the vehicle jink, then rip him apart....this works against tanks and suits alike, adding a shadowseer makes it even easier, Shriek one unit, then puliverize the other, even if the shriek isn't enough to finish them in one go, a highly reduced unit's effectiveness drops rapidly, especially if you consider force multipliers, as they're easily wasted on a single model.
Just my 2 cents on that.
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1850 points Farsight Enclave 1850 points Sisters of Battle
4000 points Eldar/Dark Eldar 1850 points Space Marines |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 12:58:23
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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That being said, it's still a shooting edition. Pure shooting still works quite often because a crippled list can't secure objectives well.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 13:13:13
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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the_scotsman wrote: Wolfblade wrote:Coming from a "traditional" (aka force org chart), instead of a pure mech army (assuming he was playing unbound?):
Fast moving assault troops: Either deepstriking, infil, etc. Anything to tie up shooting, or deny it (i.e. blocking LoS)
Better shooting: While some will argue this, the new skitarii rangers (for example) can really go toe to toe with tau firewarriors, and probably come out ahead. Obviously, this isn't the best way to go, but have some good shooting to go with your fast melee. Unless you're doing a full deepstrike army, then they'll just be focused down very quickly.
If he's doing a full cheese all vehicle army, then just play to counter him honestly. Get Lascannons/whatever anti tank you have to fight back.
His list was 2x Riptides 2x Devilfish 2x skyrays long strike and 2 squads of melta drop crisis suits.
Any fast troops he'd just pummel with ignore cover rockets until their transport is dead, or drown in AP2 blasts. Any deep striker needs to weather 2 AP2 large blasts. Skiitari can fight fire warriors, but not S6 AP4 large blasts.
2+ knights kill them. An invisible 12" move Death Star kills them. AV14 might stand a chance until the meltas drop. Serpentspam just barely out-cheeses them.
But if I don't have my own cheese list to put up? Everything in the tau Dex except for a handful of really obvious REALLY bad units just wins by default against everything that's not a super top tier WAAC list.
You were playing Harlequin, your shadowseers for foot troops should not have allowed him to shoot at ANYTHING they're rolling with from beyond 24". Everything in the army has a 5+ invul save, and your bikes/ vehicles have a 4+ invul save instead of jinking once per game. They are insanely fast, so he should have one turn to try and drop them. If he has no line of sight he can't shoot, with the exception of smart missiles, and these aren't going to drop a single bike on average. Unless your table was totally open, and you didn't spend turn one turboboosting into his face, I don't actually see how you could have lost.
Edit, there is no way he is sitting on those objectives all at once. They must be 6" from board edge, 12" from each other, you take turns placing them one at a time, you place them before you determine what deployment type you have, then you roll off to see which side you want to deploy on. For him to be able to do what you said, he would have to place all of his objectives on a long table edge, the roll up dawn of war deployment, then win the rolloff to see where he deployed, then spread his "gun line" of a few vehicles and suits over a two foot area but somehow all in cover while you failed every cover save and feel no pain slowly driving towards him over complaetly open ground.
This is starting to seem a bit silly, I don't think your loss had anything to do with his list or army. He either cheated, or you both need to get in more games of 7th. (I never thought I would say this)
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 13:31:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 13:21:39
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Dakka Veteran
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There are several ways to counter Tau, although the list you played against is top level high powered cheese.
I play my Marines against Tau regularly and find the trick is to ignore Riptides, go after their troops, get onto objectives and make them move their stuff to counter you.
I sometimes use my brothers Tau army myself and yes it is Cheese running a buffmander in a squad of suits, parking a Hammerhead in the corner taking S10 shots at anything you fancy while my Riptide bounces around and so on but enough times I have had it beaten by clever players who nuke my markerlights turn one, even if they have to fire every gun they have at them and then force me to relocate as they rush out a nick every objective on the table.
Tau work when they are set up to work, you break the formation, pull them into the open...
3+ saves on crisis suits won't last..
4+ Firewarriors and 5+ pathfinders? hell even Lasguns can sort them out en mass.
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3000 Points - Right Hands of the Emperor, Imperial Fists Successor
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 13:23:08
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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If you don't have a gravstar, you pretty much have to ignore the Riptides. Because you are wasting your fire otherwise.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 14:11:20
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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gmaleron wrote:Wyches in Raiders with Haywire or anything with Haywire for that matter is great against Mech lists in general.
Ok, as to the first part right there...
You just made every Dark Eldar player cry. It must be fun to have an army that can take options and upgrades
And additionally, my list had:
2x 3 bikes each with a haywire small blast
scourges with 4x Haywire
no scatter deep strike with 3x melta 1x haywire grenade
So I had myself plenty of dang haywire.
The way we set up the board there were several ruined buildings in and around the board area. He set his three objectives up 12" from his board edge one on one side, one in the middle, one on the other side, all in the ruined buildings. He sat one tank in each ruin, with the Devilfish out in the open (they would just jink if shot at and he knew they were not priority). So he was within the control range of 3 objectives, 2 of which had objective secured troops. The riptides were in the open. He got first turn, I deployed the best I could behind ruins, but there was no way to hide the ENTIRETY of my tank behind a ruin that had windows. So two starweavers got markerlit and blown up, and the third jinked one nova charged ion accelerator but failed to jink longstrike's shot and exploded. One troupe died to the other riptide (still haven't gone yet, so no "OMG y you didnt veil??"). Only things left in transports are splinterboats that can't do anything because he has no infantry, just tanks.
Then in my psychic phase, I took out the only two things on his side of the board with leadership values, the Riptides. I got one Veil up, failed the other one. Tried to shoot with haywire bikes, 6 shots failed to connect due to scatter and 3+ cover from the ruins the parking lot was parked in.
Turn 2, his deep strikers came in, instant deathed the bikes with melta and I had almost nothing left on the board. My deep strikers come in, again 3+ cover makes absolutely nothing happen. I chip one HP off of longstrike. His turn 3 he finished tabling me. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I like how everyone here is assuming he had infantry troops somewhere I could get to... why bother with that when you can just buy an AV12 transport with 3+ jink to keep them safe while you secure objectives with them?
2 min squads of troops and that's all you really have to take. Anything else is just for markerlights, and the only tanks that are really reliant on those you can just take them networked... Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaeleria wrote:
Tried to play Troupes with Fusion Pistols? Deep-Striking them next to the targets you want to annihilate? Yes, interceptor let's him fire at you, if he can get a line of sight..and no markerlights in there. So just let the vehicle jink, then rip him apart....this works against tanks and suits alike, adding a shadowseer makes it even easier, Shriek one unit, then puliverize the other, even if the shriek isn't enough to finish them in one go, a highly reduced unit's effectiveness drops rapidly, especially if you consider force multipliers, as they're easily wasted on a single model.
Just my 2 cents on that.
Yeah, by the time they came in everything else was dead. he jinked one tank, saved all three melta pens and then on his turn just blew them up with a longstrike pie plate and SMSes.
I dunno why you're afraid of harlequins. A pure melee army with 24pt T3 models with 5+ saves... ooh, scary. Let alone the fact that I have to ally in DE to even deep strike those meltas, there's no native deep strike in the Harlequins dex.
No native anything really. No alternate deployment, no anti-air, no vehicles with higher than 10 AV HP2, no models with higher than T3, no saves better than 3+, no models worth taking as warlord that get warlord traits, no interceptor, no weapons with range higher than 24", one model with more than 2 wounds... It's like if Orks only had trukks, boyz, warbosses and deffbuggies.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/13 14:19:03
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 14:33:13
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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the_scotsman wrote: gmaleron wrote:Wyches in Raiders with Haywire or anything with Haywire for that matter is great against Mech lists in general.
Ok, as to the first part right there...
You just made every Dark Eldar player cry. It must be fun to have an army that can take options and upgrades
And additionally, my list had:
2x 3 bikes each with a haywire small blast
scourges with 4x Haywire
no scatter deep strike with 3x melta 1x haywire grenade
So I had myself plenty of dang haywire.
Sky Weavers are T5 and don't get ID by melta, and do get the 5+ invul save.
Don't shoot with bikes, CHARGE!!! I wanted to make the shooting work on jet bikes, but the reality is, you pretty much want to be jinking and only shoot if its free, or something you can snap fire.
If you feel that you must take harliquin jetbikes ( DE ones are better and cheaper), then take the glaives.
8 S5 attacks on the charge is going to do more than haywire.
It's 130 points for 2 hayware/glaive Skyweavers.
63 points gets you D6 S6 rending HoW, 2 S4 rending HoW, and 9 S3 attacks (which might get combat drugs for S4, and will get furious charge on turn 4).
At close to half the cost, the Reaver wych bikes are massively better.
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 14:51:53
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Harlequins kinda suck.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 15:09:53
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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the_scotsman wrote: gmaleron wrote:Wyches in Raiders with Haywire or anything with Haywire for that matter is great against Mech lists in general.
Ok, as to the first part right there...
You just made every Dark Eldar player cry. It must be fun to have an army that can take options and upgrades
And additionally, my list had:
2x 3 bikes each with a haywire small blast
scourges with 4x Haywire
no scatter deep strike with 3x melta 1x haywire grenade
So I had myself plenty of dang haywire.
The way we set up the board there were several ruined buildings in and around the board area. He set his three objectives up 12" from his board edge one on one side, one in the middle, one on the other side, all in the ruined buildings. He sat one tank in each ruin, with the Devilfish out in the open (they would just jink if shot at and he knew they were not priority). So he was within the control range of 3 objectives, 2 of which had objective secured troops. The riptides were in the open. He got first turn, I deployed the best I could behind ruins, but there was no way to hide the ENTIRETY of my tank behind a ruin that had windows. So two starweavers got markerlit and blown up, and the third jinked one nova charged ion accelerator but failed to jink longstrike's shot and exploded. One troupe died to the other riptide (still haven't gone yet, so no "OMG y you didnt veil??"). Only things left in transports are splinterboats that can't do anything because he has no infantry, just tanks.
Then in my psychic phase, I took out the only two things on his side of the board with leadership values, the Riptides. I got one Veil up, failed the other one. Tried to shoot with haywire bikes, 6 shots failed to connect due to scatter and 3+ cover from the ruins the parking lot was parked in.
Turn 2, his deep strikers came in, instant deathed the bikes with melta and I had almost nothing left on the board. My deep strikers come in, again 3+ cover makes absolutely nothing happen. I chip one HP off of longstrike. His turn 3 he finished tabling me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I like how everyone here is assuming he had infantry troops somewhere I could get to... why bother with that when you can just buy an AV12 transport with 3+ jink to keep them safe while you secure objectives with them?
2 min squads of troops and that's all you really have to take. Anything else is just for markerlights, and the only tanks that are really reliant on those you can just take them networked...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaeleria wrote:
Tried to play Troupes with Fusion Pistols? Deep-Striking them next to the targets you want to annihilate? Yes, interceptor let's him fire at you, if he can get a line of sight..and no markerlights in there. So just let the vehicle jink, then rip him apart....this works against tanks and suits alike, adding a shadowseer makes it even easier, Shriek one unit, then puliverize the other, even if the shriek isn't enough to finish them in one go, a highly reduced unit's effectiveness drops rapidly, especially if you consider force multipliers, as they're easily wasted on a single model.
Just my 2 cents on that.
Yeah, by the time they came in everything else was dead. he jinked one tank, saved all three melta pens and then on his turn just blew them up with a longstrike pie plate and SMSes.
I dunno why you're afraid of harlequins. A pure melee army with 24pt T3 models with 5+ saves... ooh, scary. Let alone the fact that I have to ally in DE to even deep strike those meltas, there's no native deep strike in the Harlequins dex.
No native anything really. No alternate deployment, no anti-air, no vehicles with higher than 10 AV HP2, no models with higher than T3, no saves better than 3+, no models worth taking as warlord that get warlord traits, no interceptor, no weapons with range higher than 24", one model with more than 2 wounds... It's like if Orks only had trukks, boyz, warbosses and deffbuggies.
What you are missing is he DIDN'T HAVE A BOARD EDGE WHEN YOU WERE PLACING OBJECTIVES!!!
Deployment type and determining edges are both done after you have placed objectives. Your bikes and skimmers have a stock 5+ invul save, and a one use 4+ invul save they can use instead of jinking. So his marker lights didn't mean diddly. You have options for deployment, 4 traits on the light table will give you options, and the heroes path let's you infiltrate a trio of serious threats into the midfield with stealth and shrouded (which would give you a 2+ cover save to help with your survivability issues)
Your lack of knowledge in the Harlequin codex doesn't make the tau harder to beat, it just means you need to play more games with them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 15:48:25
Subject: Re:So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't tend to enjoy playing against Tau, but that's only because I don't enjoy that style of play. There's not wrong with their style of play, and I don't think they're overpowered, just that they've always felt like big wimps :-P. I do very much respect players that use them though, because they know that jumping in and out of range is a very strong way to play. I'm just sad when all my stuff is dead by the time I'm really able to start engaging them on my turns.
And that's why I so often failed. I engaged the Tau on their terms. It's a fight you won't often win unless you're just OP yourself. I'm excited to play against Tau with the Harlequins, because of Veil of Tears! With that power and a few other useful ones, I'll be able to stay back on my own objectives and force them to come closer. Remember, Veil of Tears even works against Smart Missiles! With Harlequins you can do your own "jump in and out" dance. In fact - you should be able to do it better. Also, with their Initiative 2, and your access to Eldar friends and Psychic Powers, try to get lots of Blind tests on them. I'm sure that without too much difficulty you'll be able to force nearly their whole army to always be snap firing - and THAT works very well for you ;-)
Good luck!
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Galef wrote:If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 15:54:11
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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HawaiiMatt wrote:the_scotsman wrote: gmaleron wrote:Wyches in Raiders with Haywire or anything with Haywire for that matter is great against Mech lists in general.
Ok, as to the first part right there...
You just made every Dark Eldar player cry. It must be fun to have an army that can take options and upgrades
And additionally, my list had:
2x 3 bikes each with a haywire small blast
scourges with 4x Haywire
no scatter deep strike with 3x melta 1x haywire grenade
So I had myself plenty of dang haywire.
Sky Weavers are T5 and don't get ID by melta, and do get the 5+ invul save.
Don't shoot with bikes, CHARGE!!! I wanted to make the shooting work on jet bikes, but the reality is, you pretty much want to be jinking and only shoot if its free, or something you can snap fire.
If you feel that you must take harliquin jetbikes ( DE ones are better and cheaper), then take the glaives.
8 S5 attacks on the charge is going to do more than haywire.
It's 130 points for 2 hayware/glaive Skyweavers.
63 points gets you D6 S6 rending HoW, 2 S4 rending HoW, and 9 S3 attacks (which might get combat drugs for S4, and will get furious charge on turn 4).
At close to half the cost, the Reaver wych bikes are massively better.
-Matt
Bet you a shiny dime they're T4. Got my codex right here. I took the 5+ invuln on one squad, and the 4+ on the other. He'd dropped a riptide blast on one the turn before forcing me to waste the invuln saving them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Yarium wrote:I don't tend to enjoy playing against Tau, but that's only because I don't enjoy that style of play. There's not wrong with their style of play, and I don't think they're overpowered, just that they've always felt like big wimps :-P. I do very much respect players that use them though, because they know that jumping in and out of range is a very strong way to play. I'm just sad when all my stuff is dead by the time I'm really able to start engaging them on my turns.
And that's why I so often failed. I engaged the Tau on their terms. It's a fight you won't often win unless you're just OP yourself. I'm excited to play against Tau with the Harlequins, because of Veil of Tears! With that power and a few other useful ones, I'll be able to stay back on my own objectives and force them to come closer. Remember, Veil of Tears even works against Smart Missiles! With Harlequins you can do your own "jump in and out" dance. In fact - you should be able to do it better. Also, with their Initiative 2, and your access to Eldar friends and Psychic Powers, try to get lots of Blind tests on them. I'm sure that without too much difficulty you'll be able to force nearly their whole army to always be snap firing - and THAT works very well for you ;-)
Good luck!
That's great, but
A) Veil of tears does NOT work in starweavers. You know. The things you need for your troops to have a snowflake's chance in hell of closing the gap between you and a tau tank.
B) Veil of tears is a power you have to get off, and not have denied on every single squad every single turn for this to work at all, otherwise he'll just blow away whatever squad didn't get it off.
C) He can sit 18" away at his leisure and just try and try all day until he gets a nine, then a troupe is gone. Or he can just ignore your footslogging melee infantry until they're close enough that he can pop in a little ways and wipe them, and use his early turns to blow away anything else you've got.
All in all, veil of tears is just the "wait til' you get unlucky" game. It's an extremely unreliable buff and with each shadowseer bringing at best two dice, odds are you'll be failing one per turn trying to keep it up on three troupes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 15:59:10
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 16:00:46
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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If there's not a single vector to aim from into a ruin that means his Line of sight is rather obstructed, too. Important for the markerlights on the Skyrays.
If it's that necessary, then keep one troupe hidden by a shadow-seer, or just the infiltrators and let the rest deep strike. Target overload is a thing that should be possible...
Devilfishs only have the SMS going for them, other than that they're rather averagy with tankyness.
Also...that list isn't a hardcore list..it's actually pretty weak. You can't see why I'm afraid of Harlies?...Quick units, high BS and WS along with Ini above most average troops, the ability to tailor each unit for their designated target to make it an almost sure kill...yeah, right, nothing to fear there.
Riptides are rather bad without marklights, as is Longshot (if not the worst tank they have, but that's a general hammerhead problem).
I tend to believe that there are no useless units, nor that there are things one can't beat. But Eldar in general are not an easy army, every mistake is severly punished. Minimizing that problem should help you out a lot more than building a list that is tailored to beat his..
There's more than one way to win this game after all, picking the right is what can determine a victory or loss even before the game started...
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1850 points Farsight Enclave 1850 points Sisters of Battle
4000 points Eldar/Dark Eldar 1850 points Space Marines |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 16:02:40
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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OK next time I'll just take Heroes Path! That'll let me infiltrate with stealth and shrouded golly gosh that'll really help
against...
against the tau.
oh, right. It'd really help against any other gunline except tau, because tau.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 16:11:35
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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What you might should try is the normal minimum-sized detachment of harlies, aka 3 Troups in cars. 2 Units Bikes and a voidweaver. Add the Heroes path two times and 2 Shadowseers in the primary detachment..roll with all of them on telepathy and then go shred him.
Boosting up into his deployment zone should be a piece of cake, so you have 3 Troupes, 2 Biker Units, 2 Solitairs and 2 Death Jesters at your hands to dispose of his stuff. With a bit of luck you might even roll neat powers, getting 2-3 off should be easy with 8+d6 charges...invisible Solitair?..or Shrouding all of your vulnerable units, forcing him to spend all of his markerlights to ignore cover to get a descent hit in...just overload his armies capabilities... Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and even if you doN't win, having him sweat because there are 11 units close to or even within his deployment zone should get you some fun out of it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 16:14:37
1850 points Farsight Enclave 1850 points Sisters of Battle
4000 points Eldar/Dark Eldar 1850 points Space Marines |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 20:00:10
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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the_scotsman wrote:OK next time I'll just take Heroes Path! That'll let me infiltrate with stealth and shrouded golly gosh that'll really help
against...
against the tau.
oh, right. It'd really help against any other gunline except tau, because tau.
......
B) Veil of tears is a power you have to get off, and not have denied on every single squad every single turn for this to work at all, otherwise he'll just blow away whatever squad didn't get it off.
Tau has to expend two Markerlight hits to be able to ignore cover against those three models. If you're playing Harlequins and DE, you're running semi- MSU already. The Tau list you showed can't afford to spend Markerlight hits willy nilly to do Ignores Cover, because they have to use two for every shooting attack to do that, and then they need to use them to make their BS a reasonable value, for each attack. Yes, if you throw your threats at them one at a time on open ground, a whole Tau gunline will destroy your army. So don't do that. If you present a Tau gunline with many targets that all need Ignores Cover, Tau cannot deal with them all at once.
Devilfish aren't very good -- they have the survivability of a Wave Serpent without its shield for comparable points cost (much closer to it than to a Rhino), except the Devilfish's firepower is S5 instead of the Wave Serpents S6-7, and vastly lower in range. Most Tau armies that I know don't even use them, or Fire Warriors. They use Kroot exclusively for bubble-wrap on their Broadsides and Riptides, that is if they're not using allies. Tau are not competitively OP -- they're a reasonably strong army that provides a good shooting backbone as an ally. They've not been OP since 7th Edition came around and destroyed O'vesa-star.
As to the veil of tears -- The army you're playing against, unless they ally, has zero psykers. They get d6 Dispel dice. You get d6 + 2 * Shadowseers dice. Veil of Tears is a blessing. At most, Tau should be able to Deny one of your powers, nowhere close to all of them, unless you're not throwing enough dice at the appropriate powers. If it's denied on one squad, you're okay with that, because the rest of the fast army gets to close in and assault in the next turn or so. If only one of your squads is in position to be shot at, throw more dice at that veil of tears.
It looks like you got a bit unlucky in your game, but it also seems like you're not playing with enough good LoS blocking terrain. Ruins with windows on the first floor don't count as LoS blocking.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 20:26:14
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Also, your "slow foot sloggers" are moving 6" running d6" refilling bad runs, then next turn moving 6", running d6"rerollable then charging 2d6"rerollable that is not slow in any sense of the word. Try two spirit seers on foot with a large squad of players, then an empty dedicated transport for them running up one side alongside the other transports full of harlis and darkeldar and overwhelm an entire flank. Ha cannot kill them all because his army is small and spread across two feet of table.
Also, as a side note. Everyone is giving you serious and sound advice on how to crush the tau with your list. You have spent the entire conversation telling them they are wrong because the tau are magically unbeatable. Try playing more games and listening to the people in the TACTICS thread you came to complain to. If all you wanted to do was cry about how your game turned out, you could have down it in general discussion.
Let people help, you wanted them to, didn't you?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 21:10:15
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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"Also, your "slow foot sloggers" are moving 6" running d6" refilling bad runs, then next turn moving 6", running d6"rerollable then charging 2d6"rerollable that is not slow in any sense of the word."
Yes, that's slow. Tau will eat pretty much any foot sloggers on the table.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 21:42:34
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Except with the setup in showed earlier you would only need to get the VoT power off once, but you would have 7-12 dice to do it with.
Those foot sloggers are in range for charges turn two. Show me another INFANTRY unit that can do that. The tau are in no way an overpowered codex. Somehow, despite all odds, the guy he played had all the right tools, in all the right places, with perfectly placed objectives he happened to have in his deployment zone before he knew where that would be, and then also got first turn. With the units the op had, he should have been able to take his entire army to one flank in a single turn. Negating most of the rediculous bonus his opponent had at deployment.
As I said, the lists are both good, he had the ability to deal with EVERYTHING his opponent had without needing some miracle of dice or brilliant tactics. He simply lost. There is no reason to come to a tactics thread and ask people how to beat something, then tell everyone they are wrong when they do. Play more, and use the advice given when you do. Because it was indeed asked for.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 22:07:11
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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I understand all that, but many lists have to play flawlessly to handle the Tau. That's hard for me to do after playing since 1994. Tau are very unforgiving to play against and it does get tedious.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/13 22:07:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 22:16:45
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon
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Why aren't you using Shadowseers with Telepathy and the Mask of Secrets?
Zoom within 12 of a riptide and cast terrify or dominate. The riptide is rolling LD on 7 at best, and 5 if you have a raider nearby and choose terrify. Watch it whiff the morale check and since it is in the back table edge even a small fall back roll puts it off the board.
A shadow seer at LVL 2 with the mask is 95 points. A barebones Riptide is twice that much. You can easily have the seer ride in a Raider with some splinter warriors who can take care of any fire warriors trying to bubble wrap.
The devilfish and tanks get glanced on a 2+ from all the haywire you have. You can easily move 12 and get shots at any forward deployed fish and strip one hull point for every two shots.
If you neuter the riptides and a fish in the first round then the rest rapidly loses it's effectiveness.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 22:20:00
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Legendary Master of the Chapter
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How to beat tau?
Lots and LOTS of LOS blocking Terrain.
Fast moving units that can duck in and out of LOS
Barrage weapons with ignore cover to punk Marker lights.
Then run up and punch em
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Unit1126PLL wrote: Scott-S6 wrote:And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.
Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/04/13 22:27:49
Subject: So for real, how do you beat Tau or even come close to having fun against them?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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With harlequin and dark eldar, yes, Tau are unforgiving. But with these two armies, so is everyone else. They will be outnumbered and out gunned by everyone out there besides grey knights, and have distinct disadvantages. But they also have answers to their own issues. I feel the dark eldar may have been the weak link in this army. They were relying on deep strike, so there were less targets on the board. When the op saw the list, he should have gone for multiple threat overload.
I run my harlis with path of heroes and a masque detachment, then roll on the light table. I run at least three death jesters and fish for the option to give them infiltrate. Those + the vehicles and jetbikes give the opponent something else to shoot as the rest of the army advances. That is a good place to start tactically, imo
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