Pope's Remarks On Armenian Genocide Spark Row With Turkey

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**Co'tor Shas**

Source

Pope Francis today touched off a diplomatic dispute between the Turkey and the Holy See when he referred to the mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during World War I as "genocide."

That view, long disputed by Turkey, caused Ankara to summon the Vatican envoy and to recall its own ambassador to the Roman Catholic Church.

"Concealing or denying evil is like allowing a wound to keep bleeding without bandaging it," Francis said at Mass Sunday in the Armenian Catholic rite in St. Peter's Basilica.

The pope called the massacre of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians the "first genocide of the 20th century."

"Bishops and priests, religious, women and men, the elderly and even defenseless children and the infirm were murdered," the pontiff said.

It is not the first time that a pope has described the Armenian deaths as genocide — Pope John Paul II did so in a written statement.

Even so, it sparked anger from Turkey. Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu tweeted that "Religious offices are not places to incite hatred and revenge with baseless accusations."

Francis was joined at the Sunday Mass by Armenian President Serge Sarkisian and Karekin II, the supreme head of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

Armenians recognize April 24, 1915, as the start of the mass killings, which they have long considered genocide. However, Turks bitterly dispute that claim, saying the numbers of dead are inflated and that the dead were killed in the course of fighting during the war.

According to the BBC: "Pope Francis' focus today on Armenia, the first country to adopt Christianity as its state religion, even before the conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine, serves as yet another reminder of the Catholic Church's widely spread roots in Eastern Europe and the Middle East. More than 20 local Eastern Catholic Churches, including that of Armenia, remain in communion with Rome."

The AP adds:

"Francis, who has close ties to the Armenian community from his days in Argentina, defended his pronouncement by saying it was his duty to honor the memory of the innocent men, women, children, priests and bishops who were "senselessly" murdered by Ottoman Turks.

"In a subsequent message directed to all Armenians, Francis called on all heads of state and international organizations to recognize the truth of what transpired and oppose such crimes 'without ceding to ambiguity or compromise.'"

Thought it was interesting. I don't see why the Turkish government just come out with something just saying there was a genocide, but it was run by the government then, not the government now. It's not like there going to get put on trial for admitting that there was a government during WWI that did horrible things.

**LordofHats**

The issue is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. He's basically Jesus (figuratively speaking) in Turkey. He was a central figure behind the Turkish War of Independence and the formation of the secular Turkish state. To understand how seriously he's taken in Turkey, consider than in 1934 the Turkish Parliament passed a law banning anyone from being named Ataturk (because there can only be one!). Guy is serious business over there. Think of George Washington elevated to near religious status.

He's also the one who basically orchestrated the Armenian Genocide as part of his "Turkification" movement. Coping up to the Armenian Genocide is tantamount to undermining the perfect/flawless image Turkey has built for the founder of their nation and by extension, their own image as a modern enlightened state.

**Soladrin**

LordofHats wrote:
The issue is Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. He's basically Jesus (figuratively speaking) in Turkey. He was a central figure behind the Turkish War of Independence and the formation of the secular Turkish state. To understand how seriously he's taken in Turkey, consider than in 1934 the Turkish Parliament passed a law banning anyone from being named Ataturk (because there can only be one!). Guy is serious business over there. Think of George Washington elevated to near religious status.

He's also the one who basically orchestrated the Armenian Genocide as part of his "Turkification" movement. Coping up to the Armenian Genocide is tantamount to undermining the perfect/flawless image Turkey has built for the founder of their nation and by extension, their own image as a modern enlightened state.

To be fair, the president of Turkey right now is turning into a Dictator in all but name as well.

**Bullockist**

Calling your child Ataturk would be friggin strange considering it means "father of the turks".

Talking to a Turkish guy the other day and apparently there are moves to undeify Ataturks image and history.

**djones520**

Turkey needs to decide if it wants to join this century or not. Up until recently, it was one of the more progressive nations in the middle east. They seem to have been taking steps backwards though...

**Da Boss**

The current Turkish government are an embarrassment to many Turkish people. Unfortunately, they are a source of pride to even more. It's a pretty divided country, politically, the tension between conservatism and liberalism, religious and secular desires is high.

Wonderful country in many ways though, with very friendly people.

But no country likes to admit to it's atrocities or have them raised by those outside the country. It's still the mature thing to do, though.

**H.B.M.C.**

Pope Francis today touched off a diplomatic dispute between the Turkey and the Holy See when he referred to the mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks during World War I as "genocide."

Good.

It was genocide.

**nflagey**

Atatürk was a "nickname" as his real name is Mustafa Kemal.
Not 100% sure about spelling though

And yes, he is viewed as a demi-god kind of person.
Trust me, I lived for 8 years with a Turk

**Sigvatr**

Calling it by its name then.

**Torga_DW**

Political correctness gone mad. If it looks like a genocide, and smells like a genocide, and leaves a trail of corpses like a genocide.....

**nflagey**

Oh, and I remember we had in issue in France, a few years back, when we actually recognize there has been an Armenian genocide.
You can imagine the tensions we had at that time with Turkey ...

**koooaei**

It's like if USA government were to admit that they invaded Iraq to simply rearrange region's resources.

Ofc turks don't want to call genocide - genocide.

**Dark Apostle 666**

I'm writing my dissertation on the Armenian Genocide for my 3rd year of uni, and frankly I've not seen a single convincing argument against this event being termed as a Genocide. The only reason that the UK government, among others, refuses to use the "G-word" is because we want Turkey to remain friendly to us, as a buffer between Europe and the Middle East. It's rather unsavoury, but that's international politics for you.

**LordofHats**

Indeed. And in an ironic twist, Turkey's refusal to admit to the Genocide or offer any sort of apology or reconciliation to Armenians is one of the big sticking points that keeps them out of the EU.

**Medium of Death**

LordofHats wrote:
Indeed. And in an ironic twist, Turkey's refusal to admit to the Genocide or offer any sort of apology or reconciliation to Armenians is one of the big sticking points that keeps them out of the EU.

Good.

Let's hope they deny it 'til the end of time.

Turkey in the EU would be utter cancer.

**Frazzled**

LordofHats wrote:
Indeed. And in an ironic twist, Turkey's refusal to admit to the Genocide or offer any sort of apology or reconciliation to Armenians is one of the big sticking points that keeps them out of the EU.

To play devil's advocate (note I have no dog in this hunt) : This occurred in 1915 correct? Whats the point? Everyone is dead. Has Turkey ever apologized for what happened? Absent that, how does it matter?

**Medium of Death**

Frazzled wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Indeed. And in an ironic twist, Turkey's refusal to admit to the Genocide or offer any sort of apology or reconciliation to Armenians is one of the big sticking points that keeps them out of the EU.

To play devil's advocate (note I have no dog in this hunt) : This occurred in 1915 correct? Whats the point? Everyone is dead. Has Turkey ever apologized for what happened? Absent that, how does it matter?

Would you say the same thing about the Holocaust?

**kronk**

Why now? What prompted this?

**motyak**

kronk wrote:
Why now? What prompted this?

I guess the pope just has a list of stuff he wants to use his position to talk about, he's certainly burning through a lot of stuff. I'm liking him and I'm not even catholic.

**nels1031**

kronk wrote:
Why now? What prompted this?

April 24th is the recognized start of the Armenian Genocide, and this year marks the centenary.

As an aside, I believe recognizing the Armenian Genocide was a campaign promise made by Barrack Obama. Has yet to happen, unfortunately.

**Gitkikka**

koooaei wrote:
It's like if USA government were to admit that they invaded Iraq to simply rearrange region's resources.

Ofc turks don't want to call genocide - genocide.

Or like Russia admitting that it's invading the Ukraine.

**Co'tor Shas**

That's an odd campaign promise. I don't think anybody would vote for anyone based on that.

**Frazzled**

Medium of Death wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Indeed. And in an ironic twist, Turkey's refusal to admit to the Genocide or offer any sort of apology or reconciliation to Armenians is one of the big sticking points that keeps them out of the EU.

To play devil's advocate (note I have no dog in this hunt) : This occurred in 1915 correct? Whats the point? Everyone is dead. Has Turkey ever apologized for what happened? Absent that, how does it matter?

Would you say the same thing about the Holocaust?

Fair point. I don't blame the current people of Germany and Japan for WWII.

**nels1031**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
That's an odd campaign promise. I don't think anybody would vote for anyone based on that.

Odd but true, and Armenian-Americans would probably vote for him for that reason alone. They're rightfully super passionate about the subject.

**kronk**

nels1031 wrote:
kronk wrote:
Why now? What prompted this?

April 24th is the recognized start of the Armenian Genocide, and this year marks the centenary.

Now this makes more sense. Thanks.

**Portugal Jones**

Torga_DW wrote:
Political correctness gone mad. If it looks like a genocide, and smells like a genocide, and leaves a trail of corpses like a genocide.....

What the feth does this have to do with political correctness?

**Co'tor Shas**

Portugal Jones wrote:
Torga_DW wrote:
Political correctness gone mad. If it looks like a genocide, and smells like a genocide, and leaves a trail of corpses like a genocide.....

What the feth does this have to do with political correctness?

Absolutely feth-all.

**Manchu**

This kind of thing is one of the benefits of the Vatican being a sovereign state that maintains relations with other sovereign states but not having (as once was the case) significant territories, population, military, etc.

**Sigvatr**

As a rule of thumb, anything that pisses the Turkish government off is a good thing in recent past.

Erdogan is a terrible, terrible leader who is only interested in himself, who openly oppresses free speech on top of being a disgusting sexist.

Rule of thumb: if a state's leader shuts down social media because of being afraid of it nagging at his power, chances are, said person is better off pushing up daisies than pushing down on his people.

**Kilkrazy**

Frazzled wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
LordofHats wrote:
Indeed. And in an ironic twist, Turkey's refusal to admit to the Genocide or offer any sort of apology or reconciliation to Armenians is one of the big sticking points that keeps them out of the EU.

To play devil's advocate (note I have no dog in this hunt) : This occurred in 1915 correct? Whats the point? Everyone is dead. Has Turkey ever apologized for what happened? Absent that, how does it matter?

Would you say the same thing about the Holocaust?

Fair point. I don't blame the current people of Germany and Japan for WWII.

You might blame them if they refused to admit that WW2 and its attendant horrors came about through the actions of their former governments and grandparents. Nations don't get an automatic pardon just because 10, 50 or 100 years has passed by.