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 astro_nomicon wrote:
http://www.torrentoffire.com/6944/eldar-aspect-warrior-special-rules

Thanks.

Man... honestly this sounds like the most wish-listy gak I've ever heard. I know the dude providing this info is known for being reliable, but, idk...

d-scythes will be different, vs armor value, mind you they are short range less than 12" of the wraithgun, can probably only hit one vehicle at a time? and do less damage than a wraithgun , 1-2 nothing, pen 3+.
vs non vehicles they will wound on 3+ which is a big difference.
in actual play will they be any worse than a fire dragon dont forget they were 42 points with d-scythe. has anyone mathhammered this out yet?

I think the D-Scythes are a trap, frankly.

Wraithguard in general actually. I would take WWP Fire Dragons over WG and their d-weapons any day, frankly. They're wounding most MC's on a 2+ and ignoring armor save, and +1 on the vehicle damage table means they're exploding vehicles on a 4+ with each hit. That's huge.

I am convinced that instead of making d-weapons D str they gave them a d-weapon damage table, like older codex's that was the same as D-str people would barely notice instead of freaking out.

partninja wrote:
people are freaking out over distort being replaced by destroyer. In most cases (single wound models) it is just business as usual. They got an upgrade against multi wound models due to D3 wounds on models that are wounded on 2s-5s. 6s are still going to punk most things as per usual. Those 6s are just a lot more poweful, and are a huge threat to Knights, or models with larger wound pools.

More reliable killing power, on expensive (money and points), units that will be harder to take lots of. They can still be killed with only a bit extra effort. Spiritseer can't make them troops anymore so you won't see them spammed on the table.

Armies of jetbike spam won't be as horrible as its being made out to be. You'll need to run such large squads it will be hard to hide them all, causing a lot of jinking, and not a lot of room to move around due to their large foot print.

Let's get some play testing in before we burn everything down.

It's the d-scythe more than anything else that is causing the issues. They are obscene. Against vehicles, a minimum sized squad is throwing out 5 auto hits that on a 3+ cause a penetrating hit with d3 hull points. No cover.

And have fun charging D templates. 5 wraiths inflicting 5d3 AP 2 hits that cause d3 wounds each.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think the D-Scythes are a trap, frankly.

Wraithguard in general actually. I would take WWP Fire Dragons over WG and their d-weapons any day, frankly. They're wounding most MC's on a 2+ and ignoring armor save, and +1 on the vehicle damage table means they're exploding vehicles on a 4+ with each hit. That's huge.

How could you ever justify not taking D-Scythe Wraithguard over Fire Dragons, who cares if they wound on a 3+ they do D3 Wounds a piece they'll straight up destroy vehicles w/ D3 Hull Points taken off per template.

Even with the -1 to the chart it's insanely powerful.

Also they're the same points now, you just swap weapons.

So, how does the Hemlock look like? Flyer with some D?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And have fun charging D templates. 5 wraiths inflicting 5d3 AP 2 hits that cause d3 wounds each.

That wounds on a 3+, and doesn't ignore invul or feel no pain.
I think it's going to be over-kill on some units, and under-performing against others.
I think I'd rather go with twice as many fire dragons.

No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
And have fun charging D templates. 5 wraiths inflicting 5d3 AP 2 hits that cause d3 wounds each.

That wounds on a 3+, and doesn't ignore invul or feel no pain.
I think it's going to be over-kill on some units, and under-performing against others.
I think I'd rather go with twice as many fire dragons.

As above. FNP is not an issue.

5 D-scythes will do on average 6.666 wounds to a squad with single wounds charging it - with invulnerable saves being the only method of reducing it.

Could be 6.666 guardsmen, or it could be 6.666 MEQ.

I wouldn't call it under performing. Just make sure they get to the right place.

Poor targets for the flamers tend to be good targets for scatterlasers.

I always ran a squad of D-Scythes in a serpent. The issue is that to get wraith guard within the host detachment you need a wraith host. Which comes with a tax of 3 squads if guard, a Lord, and a knight.... And ranged D weapons seems to be getting people all flustered.

Now, say my gaming group wasn't a bunch of crying, screaming, tantrum throwing babies. And that I had spoken to them, and not a single one of them had a problem with all the new rumoured rules. And that pretty much every single one of them was looking forward to the challenge of taking the new eldar book and already looking at combinations to field against them. I've always ran iyanden and been wraith heavy. So, do we think the wraith host would be a reasonable selection? Considering there is a guardian/Windrider host tax. And do people know the benefits the wraith host will get?

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"[i]For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10.

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs./i]"

no fnp vs Destroyer regardless of toughness.

Your just not doubled out and removed because of the strength the 4 if you have multiple wounds.

Example: warboss with a pain boy gets hit by D Scythe. He suffers I wound. It counts as a S4 ( not 10) wound so he is not insta deathed( double his toughness) . But gets no fnp due to it being a destroyer weapon.

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs.

Rumor on scythes is that they are -1 to the D table and only S4 for instant death.
You don't get the FnP as stated, which is a bummer, that would have given DE a fighting chance. Doesn't do instant death, just D3 wounds, which is pretty close to instant death.
It seems like to me that a few D weapons and a smattering of scatter-bikes is all you need. Throw in a squad of reapers to down flyers. Call it a day.

The question becomes, is their any hard counter to Wraith Knights + Bikes? WK seem to tear up IK, and crush expensive AV14 and AV13. Bikes murder AV11 or less and pretty much all infantry.
I honestly don't know what to do.

No one else is giddy over the apparent possibility to give Dark Reapers BS5 and Flak missiles for 35 points.

2 Squad of Dark Reapers
1 Squad of Fire Dragons

The Fire Dragons get Battle Focus still so they can all be kept in reserve, move 12" onto the board due to the Warhosts ability to always run 6".

Then just wipe out everything since they've got BS5

Dark Reapers have BS5

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
No fnp from S-D. Says specifically under fnp rules.

Thanks. I was thinking that since they only count as S4 for ID that I'd get FnP.
I'm stilling thinking I'd rather have firedragons.
AP1 with +1 to damage vehicles is +3 vs tanks, +4 vs open topped.
Fire dragons should get the same vehicle killing job done at half the cost.

What would you take as an eldar player for tank hunting that won't get complaints of being over-powered?

"Feel No Pain saves may not be taken against Destroyer attacks or against unsaved Wounds that have the Instant Death special rule."

"For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10."

You're still in for a bad day if T5 or lower, but T6+ get their FnP no probs.

Rumor on scythes is that they are -1 to the D table and only S4 for instant death.
You don't get the FnP as stated, which is a bummer, that would have given DE a fighting chance. Doesn't do instant death, just D3 wounds, which is pretty close to instant death.
It seems like to me that a few D weapons and a smattering of scatter-bikes is all you need. Throw in a squad of reapers to down flyers. Call it a day.

The question becomes, is their any hard counter to Wraith Knights + Bikes? WK seem to tear up IK, and crush expensive AV14 and AV13. Bikes murder AV11 or less and pretty much all infantry.
I honestly don't know what to do.

i only play orks, I'm with you. Not sure what to do either.

Was hoping lootas, but with serpeants doing 2d6 shots , S6 ignore cover, they will get murdered pretty fast.
Mega nobs get vaporized with the amount of SD and AP2.
Maybe bikes, but any ignore cover kills them too. And jet bikes are more mobile and better range to avoid them.

The point of the eldar is that they have a tool to deal with any opponent. We can all conceive of an eldar list that can crush any other list without to much problem. Except for tau. Tau are pretty much always a problem for them. But this is the way its supposed to be. I can Taylor a list to handle pretty much anyone. But not against everyone. There is a pretty significant difference between those two.

When you are playing against eldar you have to decide what the tools they have that are best against you and take those things out post haste. Its tough and if your opponent is better than you you won't be able to do it but I have always loved the symphony of destruction that a well built eldar list can play.

DarkenAvatar wrote:
The point of the eldar is that they have a tool to deal with any opponent. We can all conceive of an eldar list that can crush any other list without to much problem. Except for tau. Tau are pretty much always a problem for them. But this is the way its supposed to be. I can Taylor a list to handle pretty much anyone. But not against everyone. There is a pretty significant difference between those two.

When you are playing against eldar you have to decide what the tools they have that are best against you and take those things out post haste. Its tough and if your opponent is better than you you won't be able to do it but I have always loved the symphony of destruction that a well built eldar list can play.

this used to be the case but with the next dex, you can make a list with nothing but 3 types of units - wraith knights, jetbikes, and a HQ jetseer or two. The problem is that this kind of list counters just about anything and everything very efficiently. It's stupid but that kind of list will already be tailored to kill just about everything out there currently. You really don't even need to be trying that hard to tailor. Basic troops + heavy support not even counting a formation is enough lol.

Melee- never get there, shot to death by the sheer amount of str 6 bs4 shooting available to the very long range jetbikes. Big tough guys to tank it all? the WK's will D-weapon all those since they are heavy support right now instead of a single LoW. Vs flyers, you still have massive rate of fire but it is their one slight weakness though I'd be surprised if you can't glance down Av12 flyers or Mc's fairly effectively with that many str 6 shots. Objectives? they are faster than just about anything on the board. It's actually worse than the old serpent spam. Used to be around 3-5 types of units, now we're down to 3 units and they are all nearly the best in the game vs anything similar points from other armies.

Good news all you have to do for any army is make sure to ally with Space Marines and take Grav Guns.

Totally a viable tactic to deal with Wraithknights.

Anyway, back to tactics. I don't want to field just 3 units. One if the reasons I love our army is variety. In all honesty, I used to run a pure iyanden wraith list. And I loved it. But I don't want to do that with this new book.

So, I'm thinking the core of my army will be the Windrider host. Obvious reason. Probably 3 squads of 5 bikes each with a warlock and a sprinkling of scatter lasers and cannons. I think upgrading them all is pointless as I reckon some will die before they get to shoot anyway. I'm then looking at an aspect host. But perhaps combining it with a falcon squadron. If the rumours are true, three falcons can deep strike.... And then a squad of dragons could get out of one with their +1 on the damage chart.... Bye bye enemy tank. It's almost an imperial knight counter without even taking a wraithknight. I want to take my knight as I've spent money on the damn thing. But if people are crying that much then I may not. Or I may field a sword variant. I'd love to throw a crimson Hunter on the table, but the can only be bought in squadrons of 3 now. So I'm thinking about using one or maybe two of the other aspect slots as reapers along side the fragons. I'd like to know if they can shops to skyfire or not. If they can they're almost an auto include I think.

Hollismason wrote:
Good news all you have to do for any army is make sure to ally with Space Marines and take Grav Guns.

Totally a viable tactic to deal with Wraithknights.

Grav guns are also good against the jet bikes too. It all comes down to who gets to alpha strike first. Bike can move 12" and shoot 18" grav guns so hopefully thats sufficient distance. Gating invisible gravcents are very powerful against them too.

I just want to take a moment to appreciate how much Howling Banshees have been improved.

Stick 'em in a raider.

Move raider 6'', disembark models 6''.

Average charge range on a 2d6 with fleet is 8''. Add 3'' due to their special rule.

6+6+8+3= 23''. Banshees in a raider can reliably charge units that are 23'' away from them, and those units may not fire overwatch. And the banshees don't take an initiative penalty for charging through cover.

Now granted, they still run into the problem of doing poor damage once they're in combat due to strength 3, but still. That's insane for a 6'' moving unit.

Don't they have furious charge too?

They don't have it in their 5th/6th edition incarnations. Dunno about now.

OK, I may have misread... I'm still quite excited for them. Though I'm not sure if that's because they're good.... Or just so much better than they used to be.

I was starting to get okay with D-weapons until this weekend. Now I am firmly against them and hope tournaments will Errata them.

It sucks to be completely in control of the game, played solid for 4 turns and then to just see them roll 4 sixes, remove your army, and there is nothing you can do. Its just not fun. 6, there goes my warlord, 6 there goes my transport, 6 there goes my MC, 6 there goes my vehicle.

I do everything right tactically, movement wise, placement. All he had to do was roll 4 sixes and he won. That is not fun to play against. I can deal with it from CC, usually its not every turn and its maybe 3-4 attacks that need to hit.

Ranged? its just not fun. Its like facing an invis cent-star, or a 2+ re-rollable unit. Sure I could technically do something and maybe beat it but most of the game is me rolling dice, doing nothing, and then picking up models.

You just cant invest in anything with all this ranged D, you cant run any of the fun units when they can reliably one shot ANYTHING in the game with one unit shooting....

I could go on, but I hope for the sake of the game TO's limit it.

I love my wraith army. Literally adored it. And personally thought distort was fine as it was. I had no problem with it. I welcomed the ghost glaive changing to a D weapon, in line with the bloodthirster and the imperial knight. I was a little.... Surprised that they made all wraith weapons strength D.

I've said it before, luckily, having played an iyanden wraith army for 2 years, this time round I was actually more tempted to field a fast aspect type army. And it looks like I'll be able to do that and stay competitive. Luckily I'd pretty much made that decision before I found out that all wraith weapons were D strength.

Now, I am one of the eldar players that's against nerfing ourselves. I don't have to force myself to not take D weapons. I'm not taking many ranged D weapons because I don't want to, not because my opponent or gaming group has said I can't play if I did. Perhaps that's why none of them are that bothered that I'm picking this new book up on Saturday. They know me well enough to be assured I won't be THE.

And personally, as it stands with no other army having any access to any form of ranged D other than vortex of doom, I don't think I'd complain if a local tournament banned it. I'd just field all those aspect warriors that I'm literally DESPERATE to talk tactics with you all about. It would be somewhat easier if all the whiners and moaners decided to shut up for just 5 minutes.

But I will be taking jetbikes. And I will be taking more than one upgrading. I shan't spam them. But I will build a decent list. And I am still likely to take a single wraith construct with a glaive, shield and probably scatter lasers. And if someone suggests I can't, then I shall remind them that I had absolutely no problem with their imperial knight when it showed up almost immediately after it was released and simply wrecked havoc on my board. And nor did I cry when the XV109 was placed on the table top. A forge world iteration that I had never seen before. In both instances, I said 'cool model' and then tried hard to make him remove his pride and joy. As I'm sure people will do with me.

Help me understand this please.

Distortion Weapons
All Distortion weapons are Strength D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strength is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death

SO on D-scythes are str what for wounding?

So that means that on a 1 or a 2 the do no damage right? so 33% chance of doing nothing... hope I am reading that right.


Not understanding the wounding on them for sure. It says they are str 4 for instant death. are they str 10 for wounding then????
Sorry just confused