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He might still be jinking a lot as I think he's still AV10.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:


OK, they are strength D for wounding. It means simply that you roll on the destroyer weapon chart instead of rolling to wound as usual. And yes, with a -1 modifier. So a 1 or 2 means no damage done. And a 3-6 is D3 wounds. It means that against scythes things like invulnerable saves will always be allowed, because they can't get a 6 result on the destroyer table.

As for the strength 4. That's purely for instant death purposes. So if you hit a toughness 3 multiwound model and your D3 result is just a 1 then they'll only lose one wound. But, if they're toughness 2 then 1 wound will be enough to remove the model.

Make sense?

thats the thing, their weapons actually got a significant *nerf* against more targets with this edition,

as before, generally, they wounded on 2's, and most models are not multi wound anyways.

now they are more niche, better against multiwound models (and i guess ignoring FNP is nice?),

worse against everything else.

 easysauce wrote:
thats the thing, their weapons actually got a significant *nerf* against more targets with this edition,

as before, generally, they wounded on 2's, and most models are not multi wound anyways.

now they are more niche, better against multiwound models (and i guess ignoring FNP is nice?),

worse against everything else.

The strength 4 flamers generally wounded on 2's? I want to fight the armies you are.

It just occurred to me, I use Eldar, and for only 270ish points I can get a unit with:

An ObSec unit with 10 wounds, 3+ armor, jink, the ability to JSJ, that is if I don't turbo-boost up to 48" a turn, and shoot up to either 30 pseudo-rending shots at 24" or just 40 shots at 36" ...all at S6

This isn't just broken. It's not even media-level-broken. In fact, it's not even SNK-fighting-game-last-boss broken. I don't have a description for how broken this is...Man...

 obsidiankatana wrote:

The strength 4 flamers generally wounded on 2's? I want to fight the armies you are.

haha, my bad then Im mis-remembering the old D scythe and D weapon that the WG had then.

 easysauce wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:


OK, they are strength D for wounding. It means simply that you roll on the destroyer weapon chart instead of rolling to wound as usual. And yes, with a -1 modifier. So a 1 or 2 means no damage done. And a 3-6 is D3 wounds. It means that against scythes things like invulnerable saves will always be allowed, because they can't get a 6 result on the destroyer table.

As for the strength 4. That's purely for instant death purposes. So if you hit a toughness 3 multiwound model and your D3 result is just a 1 then they'll only lose one wound. But, if they're toughness 2 then 1 wound will be enough to remove the model.

Make sense?

thats the thing, their weapons actually got a significant *nerf* against more targets with this edition,

as before, generally, they wounded on 2's, and most models are not multi wound anyways.

now they are more niche, better against multiwound models (and i guess ignoring FNP is nice?),

worse against everything else.

I would argue that they got better against everything. S4 was only wounding Marines half the time. Now not only are they wounding them on threes, but on top of this they ignore armor and cover saves. The "6" result was irrelevant for single-wound models anyway.

The other factor is that an Eldar player can take five of these templates for just 160 points. There is not any way to justify a unit that powerful at its points cost.

 RancidHate wrote:
It just occurred to me, I use Eldar, and for only 270ish points I can get a unit with:

An ObSec unit with 10 wounds, 3+ armor, jink, the ability to JSJ, that is if I don't turbo-boost up to 48" a turn, and shoot up to either 30 pseudo-rending shots at 24" or just 40 shots at 36" ...all at S6

This isn't just broken. It's not even media-level-broken. In fact, it's not even SNK-fighting-game-last-boss broken. I don't have a description for how broken this is...Man...

I'm thinking 9 units of 3 of those nasty bikes will be the way to go if you want lots of them (CAD+War Host). 10 mans open yourself up to heavy losses and any time you have to jink it affects too many remaining bikes. 81 points for 12 Str 6 shots at 36" on what was already arguably the best troop unit in the game.

 Eldarain wrote:

 RancidHate wrote:
It just occurred to me, I use Eldar, and for only 270ish points I can get a unit with:

An ObSec unit with 10 wounds, 3+ armor, jink, the ability to JSJ, that is if I don't turbo-boost up to 48" a turn, and shoot up to either 30 pseudo-rending shots at 24" or just 40 shots at 36" ...all at S6

This isn't just broken. It's not even media-level-broken. In fact, it's not even SNK-fighting-game-last-boss broken. I don't have a description for how broken this is...Man...

I'm thinking 9 units of 3 of those nasty bikes will be the way to go if you want lots of them (CAD+War Host). 10 mans open yourself up to heavy losses and any time you have to jink it affects too many remaining bikes. 81 points for 12 Str 6 shots at 36" on what was already arguably the best troop unit in the game.

Caution though.

Alright, people like to talk about how you have 36" and JSJ, but in the long run you're not going to be outside of everyone's line of fire. Because the game is about objectives if you play Maelstrom, those Jetbikes aren't just going to be sitting in a backfield gunline for the entire game - they're going to be out there, in the middle of the field, contesting or controlling objectives.

And then, once you are in range of things, you're going to realize that a 3+ armor or 4+ Jink doesn't mean much on 3 models. Those are going to evaporate faster than you can say "please don't shoot me I'm made of paper". In my Decurion I use a min unit of 3 Tomb Blades because I only had the 3. They survive pretty well since they had the 4+ RP, but they still went down to any sort of focus fire. Windriders don't get that extra save, so it doesn't take much to make someone fail three 3+ rolls.

Of course, if you're playing Eternal War and using your Jetbikes as a way to fly out on turn 5 and try to hold objectives for end of game, then you can use them as a gunline for most of the game, but still, boasting about a Marine toughness with Jink isn't really that impressive.

You're entirely right. And that's why I think the Internets reaction to these bikes is unjustified and frankly laughable.

Jetbikes are still squishy. They always have been squishy. I consider a marine squishy. And 4-5 marines aren't that hard to kill. Especially with a footprint as large as the bikes. Don't get me wrong, their speed helps with this a lot. The bigger foot print isn't as much of an issue when you can get behind cover fast. But they're still only toughness 4. A space marine bike is tougher.

They are quite cheap. And I would argue that they're probably the best troop choice in the game right now. If you're not fussed about eldar detachment bonuses, then stick them in a CAD for objective secured and they're unbelievably good. But I still don't think they're broken.

I dont really have much of a problem with bikes. I found them most annoying when they would spend the game hiding and then going for objectives. If you want to spend all game at the back of the table shooting go for it. Deadly and annoying but I have ways to deal with them. My ignore cover scorpius says "Hi"

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
I consider a marine squishy.

To my undying regret, I concur.

My favorite part of the codex is where they were like, yeah, we should really need to nerf those Wave Serpents......hmmmm....BY BUFFING EVERY OTHER UNIT! Oh and then the awkward vyper/walker tax.

ragazzacane wrote:
My favorite part of the codex is where they were like, yeah, we should really need those wave serpents, by buffing every other unit. Oh and then the awkward vyper/walker tax.

You forgot the Vaul's Wrath tax as well. It's a pure money grab by GW; take the units nobody used in the last codex, and make them part of the mandatory core of the formation in the new one.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

ragazzacane wrote:
My favorite part of the codex is where they were like, yeah, we should really need those wave serpents, by buffing every other unit. Oh and then the awkward vyper/walker tax.

You forgot the Vaul's Wrath tax as well. It's a pure money grab by GW; take the units nobody used in the last codex, and make them part of the mandatory core of the formation in the new one.

Its becoming a common theme. If you're at all aware of the daemonkin formations, you'll realise they've done it a lot.

The core needs possessed
To get a Heldrake you need raptors and warp talons
To get a land raider you need terminators and blood crushers

It seems GW are even sick of people spamming the same units and not taking any others. They're trying to force our hand..... But then there's always a CAD.

Or unbound.

Have I read it right that D-scythes now don't cost 50 points to upgrade?

Think so.

Now that Assassins are coming out, along with another Mechanicus release, is that it for Eldar now? Was hoping for new Warp Spider models.

 Bhazakhain wrote:
Think so.

Now that Assassins are coming out, along with another Mechanicus release, is that it for Eldar now? Was hoping for new Warp Spider models.

This was supposedly slated as a small one week splash release/update. However, I would love new war spider models as well. Spiders, Dragons, and Hawks are the only models that really show their age. Phoenix lords need new sculpts as well. Maugan actually looks about right though.

Lol yeah Maugan Ra has always been good. I'd happily have new Phoenix Lords though.

For me all Aspects are great except Warp Spiders. Obviously Shining Spears will need an update now. Warlocks work well still but if they did new ones I think they'd be phenomenal.

I do long for plastic aspects. Namely spiders, reapers and dragons.

Correction from a question above: you still pay 10 pts/model to upgrade to D Scythes.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

ragazzacane wrote:
My favorite part of the codex is where they were like, yeah, we should really need those wave serpents, by buffing every other unit. Oh and then the awkward vyper/walker tax.

You forgot the Vaul's Wrath tax as well. It's a pure money grab by GW; take the units nobody used in the last codex, and make them part of the mandatory core of the formation in the new one.

Its becoming a common theme. If you're at all aware of the daemonkin formations, you'll realise they've done it a lot.

The core needs possessed
To get a Heldrake you need raptors and warp talons
To get a land raider you need terminators and blood crushers

It seems GW are even sick of people spamming the same units and not taking any others. They're trying to force our hand..... But then there's always a CAD.

also, when you take into account that GW doesnt allow LOW's at their tournaments, in their world, they just took the WK out of competitive play.

edlar have lots of shooting, but their durability went down a lot I think, which makes sense, super shooty glass cannons.

I see eldar suffering a lot against alpha strike and null deploy lists

problem is, there will always be more people working at it to "break the game" then there will be people paid to make it... which is why I would advocate for GW to have an official open source game that players can buy, and vote on/edit much like wiki, but only open to this edit every year or so.

OK, so I have just seen a lot of leaked pictures from the new codex. I shall attempt to compile a list this afternoon and update the OP. One thing I will say, is its nice to see so much power given to the aspect warriors.

Ugghh spirit mark is now an aura effect....that is just fantastic..

 Leth wrote:
Ugghh spirit mark is now an aura effect....that is just fantastic..

To be honest, I'm not sure you'll see to much of the spiritseer. In a CAD he takes up a HQ slot which is now exceptionally competitive. All the phoenix Lords look usable. And a farseer is absolutely fantastic.

I also don't think you'll see him much in a warhost as you can only take one in a wraith host detachment. And with a requirement for 3 units of wraith guard, a wraithlord and a wraithknight all required it's a points intensive selection and I'd hope that'll put some off. If not the backlash from other 40K gamers might put people off.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
OK, so I have just seen a lot of leaked pictures from the new codex. I shall attempt to compile a list this afternoon and update the OP. One thing I will say, is its nice to see so much power given to the aspect warriors.

I agree - I'll be fielding more of them on. I've mostly just been using Spiders (a lot) and Reapers in about half of my games, only trading places with 2x Fire Prisms (which are also quite a bit interesting now). I like that Aspects, when taking Exarchs, are overall a bit cheaper now since it seems you get the extras all rolled into the same old Exarch upgrade cost. Although, I'll be sad to see my fast shot spinneret rifle spider exarch go away. I also really liked taking marksmen on Exarchs who could get it (Hawk exarch with sun rifle marksman was fun). With such a small points investment though, it will be nice to see more people taking the Exarchs over just vanilla squads if only for the extra wound, and better armor save (Avengers, Banshees, Hawks).

I'm very excited to run a full swordwind of just Aspect host(s) and an Avenger shrine formation. Maybe a small CAD (Just an HQ and 2x Avengers or Windriders) and the aspect formation if only for some objective secured.

Now if only I could find some cheap support batteries on ebay.....

A squadron of Fire Prisms is a trap; for a unit of 3, you only get one (very powerful) shot. Putting 250 extra points on the table just to roll to scatter one S7 AP1 pie plate or one S9 AP1 cupcake? /shrug

I didn't realize is actually linked the beams again - I thought they all still fired (at the same unit) and the strength of all of their guns become stronger. Makes sense as that would have been too powerful - Even still, I was only going to squadron two.

With the confirmations of the eldar rules, I think this book is the end of competative GT level play. To have a chance to win the event it will be required to take eldar and of course take one of the several paths of completely over the top cheese (non scatter wraith guard in allied raiders) spammed ob sec secure jet bikes pumping out 200 s6 shots a turn, all backed up by easily the most under costed gargantuan creature ever. As a result about a 3rd of the field at least will bring eldar, who will create a critical mass that everyone else will exude the eldar wrath likely twice a tournament. Not fun, not interesting, not worth the couple hundred dollars to go to a big GT.

It's so sad and frustrating because we were so close to achieving a really good balanced meta. Well I guess I'll just play at my local game store against the other codexs that aren't just blatantly unfair.

Funnily enough I am extremely happy with 99% of the elder book. After looking at it, it's literally just a few things hat are problems. Really looking forward to seeing the lists the community comes out with