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 koooaei wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement

Doesn't work since 7-th.

Why not?

Hmmm 18 shots with cyclone missiles to take down a Wraithknight eh? Well I guess I need to buff up my Iron Warriors Tyrant Terminators squad a bit. Glad someone else did the math. I think the rest of my force can handle the rest.

There is some rather insane stuff in the new codex, and unfortunately it appears that taking an all comers list that is no longer an option if you are playing against elder. You will have to tailor to maximize firepower instead of bringing units you actually like.

With my IW list I will have to drop a tank or two to add to my Tyrant squad and add some more firepower. My planned Elysians should be ok although my starting on the ground force is going to suffer greatly if it survives at all. My NL force is a Terror Assault force, not that I will have to deal with mass bikes in my meta but I have no answer for mass bikes and mass knights if I play elsewhere. I might pick up an IK as a counter if the new ranged knight rumor is true, but that is not an optimal solution. I could squeeze a melta squad in perhaps but no way to get them to a Knight. So once again I change my list from what I want to use or I play at a heavy disadvantage. My Night Raptors would take out the knight in close combat, but getting them there is the issue. A lighting with Rad missiles might be an option, I take one with that list anyway.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

Don't forget though, if you deploy the boats sideways and then rotate during your turn you get 3,4 inches extra movement

Doesn't work since 7-th.

Why not?

Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

HAHA! They actually fixed that cheat! Awesome, yay GW did something right for once.

DCannon4Life wrote:
Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

Where does it state that? Not calling you on it, but I can't seem to find it and a friend of mine pretty much always uses the rotate trick, so I'll need a page reference to rub his face in.

 Redemption wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

Where does it state that? Not calling you on it, but I can't seem to find it and a friend of mine pretty much always uses the rotate trick, so I'll need a page reference to rub his face in.

It's a little complicated because you have to refer back to the infantry movement rules due to the wording of the vehicle movement rules. This spells it out. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602413.page

These are the two important rules.

''As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or
from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and
from their hull''

if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6"
away from where it started the Movement phase.

However, as discussed in that thread, this can lead to some wonky situations such as a pivoting Monolith only being able to move an inch if it turns 180.

Col. Dash wrote:

There is some rather insane stuff in the new codex, and unfortunately it appears that taking an all comers list that is no longer an option if you are playing against elder.

Since just about everyone will be playing the new eldar, building a list to kill eldar has become the new "all comers".

-Matt

Eldar Jetbikes putting out 40 ST6 shots with a Eldar Farseer giving Misfortune and Prescience to stuff is wrong , so wrong.

Am I missing something or can jetbikes not battle focus run and shoot scatter lasers because they are heavy weapons?

Jetbikes can't run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The image of someone trying to run with a jetbike is hilarious though, I just imagine it's like riding a bike that's way to small for you and you're like running with it between your legs.

But they have battle focus...

jSewell wrote:
But they have battle focus...

They still can't run.

jSewell wrote:
But they have battle focus...

All Battle Focus does is let you run and shoot in the same turn. If you can't run in the first place, it obviously doesn't benefit you.

They don't need battle-focus. Jetbikes have "thrust moves", which allow them to move 2d6" after shooting. Average roll on a 2d6 is 7, so on average they're moving faster with thrust-move then a 6" run anyway.

They can move and fire their scatter-lasers because jetbikes have relentless.

Finally got my hands on the codex yesterday, and I can see what you guys mean when you can use wraith construct to add more WK. As I understand D-Weapons they can only kill one model at a time though? So if you are shooting at a 5 man tac squad and roll a 6, and do D6+6 wounds, then you can still only kill 1 marine? (Don't have the rule book on hand atm.)

Scatbikes are awesome, but I see some people rolling with cannons. Is it really worth having one less shot in exchange for bladestorm? I guess they would be pretty good against nids/mc if you have the windrider host for 1 round of shred?

Do you guys think the new crimson hunter formation looks good? I thought it looked really good, but it doesn't seems to be ignored in the discussions I have seen so far. 440 points for the formation is pretty expensive, but crimson hunter with 4+ saves seems so good compared to running them without, and rerollable 4+ on jink means they can actually survive stuff for more than one round now. Favored enemy kinda helps against flyrants, but reroll to wound would have been much nicer. Otherwise I guess scatbikes are our best anti air units?

People seem to favor D-Scythes on WG, but you save 50 points by taking regular wraith cannons and they can ignore cover/inv/fnp on a 6, put them in a wraith host with a Spiritseer so they can reroll to hit and these guys will be more nasty against certain targets than the scythes. Seems pretty good?

I really want to like the new Banshees, but I don't want to spend the points on a wave serpent for them. Having them run across the table for a whole round with T3 and 4+ armor seems like I am just giving away first blood to my opponent. Feels like you need to ally in dark eldar if you want to get these or Wraith Blades to work, and that's a heavy tax to pay.

Vaul's Wrath seems like they could be ok now. I was thinking that you could add a warlock with shrouded and hide them behind some terrain to cover your WK or an objective. If anything (especially grav centurions with storm shield librarian running point) get's within 24" they are dead, but this unit would cost around 200 points so I guess there are better things to spend those points on. You could drop unit size down to 1 or 2 though.

Who has "Hit and Run" in the dex? Does Baharroth still have it?


I am wondering if a wraithbladestar is possible. Using a character for hit and run, trying to fit in some runes of battle to get protect and just going to town with rage.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Who has "Hit and Run" in the dex? Does Baharroth still have it?


I am wondering if a wraithbladestar is possible. Using a character for hit and run, trying to fit in some runes of battle to get protect and just going to town with rage.

Baharroth still has hit and run.
Asurmen has counter attack.
Jain Zar adds 3" to run moves with her warlord abilities.

-Matt

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question.

The warp spiders have a rule called 'flickerjunp' it says when they are selected as a target from a shooting attack they may make a 2D6 Jump....

.... It doesn't say it's restricted to once.... What happens if they're targeted three or four times. Can they make 3 or 4 jumps?

rules as written, to me, they absolutely get to do the jump multiple times, and that is how i will play it until i see an FAQ saying otherwise.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
Here's a question.

The warp spiders have a rule called 'flickerjunp' it says when they are selected as a target from a shooting attack they may make a 2D6 Jump....

.... It doesn't say it's restricted to once.... What happens if they're targeted three or four times. Can they make 3 or 4 jumps?

rules as written, to me, they absolutely get to do the jump multiple times, and that is how i will play it until i see an FAQ saying otherwise.

Hahaha, I'm opening a rules debate on this but I suspect you're right

 Red Corsair wrote:

 whembly wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

Formation Crimson Hunter formation cause it's broken.

Why???

It's pretty brutal man. You get three fliers for 440 that each put out 4 s8 ap 2 shots, reroll armor pen on other fliers and have an automatic 4+ cover save without jinking, which becomes rerollable if you do jink. All on a vector dancer. I don't mind it because it hard counters flyrants, which I am so tired of seeing spammed.

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

Tyrants are BS4 with twin linked and its S6.

Oh, for a second I was living in a dream world where the crimson hunter actually had armor, made the calculation on AV12.

So, 21,34 hits, 10,67 penetrations, 5,33 hits after 4+ save.

Yeah, that is pretty awful. With Jink you reduce that to 2,67 hits on the Crimson Hunter. So you are going to lose one no matter what. If you separate them though then each flyrant could take out one Crimson Hunter on average each, and that's after you jink.

Still, why does the formation count as a "squad", and I assume all units in a squad has to jink? Do all the crimson hunters in a formation arrive on the table in the same turn?

 Acidian wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

On behalf of all Nid players, your math is wrong.

24 shots at BS 4, TL means 24 x 8 /9 = 21.33

Stength 6 vs AV 10 means 21.33 / 2 = 10.66, or 5.33 per Flyrant since they are likely targeting different Crimson Hunters. At this point, if you don't jink, then that 4+ cover leads to a dead CH more often than not... If you jink though, you are very likely to survive, or at least require a second round to finish off.

Basically, if you don't jink, then 2 Flyrants have quite reasonable odds of shooting down 2 CH, and are almost guaranteed to kill one of them. To avoid this, I would spread out your CH (they're mobile enough to still get good fire arcs) and so that if one gets hit, the other two can still shoot the offending Flyrant next turn.

Yeah, I fixed the math in the previous post. Even on a rerollable 4+ you are still probably going to lose one CH.

What is the threat range on a flyrant, 36"? Seems it would be tough to get out of range without flying of one of the sides, asuming the flyrants are anywhere in the middle of the table.

At least the flyrants are focused on your crimson hunters. There's other stuff that you might not want them shooting at.

Zimko wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:
Because the BRB explicitly states that no part of the vehicle can move more than X" (where X = the number of inches you are choosing to move the vehicle). When you try ye olde 'rotate then move' trick, you violate that restriction because a part of the vehicle will be more than X" from where it was at the beginning of the turn.

Where does it state that? Not calling you on it, but I can't seem to find it and a friend of mine pretty much always uses the rotate trick, so I'll need a page reference to rub his face in.

It's a little complicated because you have to refer back to the infantry movement rules due to the wording of the vehicle movement rules. This spells it out. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/602413.page

These are the two important rules.

''As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or
from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and
from their hull''

if a model does move, no part of its base can finish the move more than 6"
away from where it started the Movement phase.

However, as discussed in that thread, this can lead to some wonky situations such as a pivoting Monolith only being able to move an inch if it turns 180.

Actually it can't even move at all if the point you choose is the corner of the hull...which is why I have NEVER seen anyone play the way you suggest, even at GTs. There is also that bit in the rules ablout how rotation does not count as movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Acidian wrote:
Yeah, I fixed the math in the previous post. Even on a rerollable 4+ you are still probably going to lose one CH.

What is the threat range on a flyrant, 36"? Seems it would be tough to get out of range without flying of one of the sides, asuming the flyrants are anywhere in the middle of the table.

At least the flyrants are focused on your crimson hunters. There's other stuff that you might not want them shooting at.

Why are the Flyrants firing at full BS? they would have to jink for sure, if not, The Crimson Hunters murder them the turn they arrive.

EDIT: Also, how much do the Flyrants cost? Crimson Hunter Formation comes to 440 if you take an Exarch.

Depends on whether or not they're getting Malanthrope support or not. If they are, then they likely won't jink.

 Acidian wrote:

stopcallingmechief wrote:

at first i thought it was very strong but vehicle squads are brought back down a level because of the nature of jinking. Its not jsut one vehicle in the squad that does it. If you were facing off vs 3 flyrants, ya ofcourse you will come in, all your hunters will be forced to fire on one tyrant, you will prolly kill it, leaving the other 24 s6 shots from the two remaining to either slaughter all three of your planes, or force you to jink and than snapfire next turn, and even if jinking theres a decent chance you still lose 2. My crimson hunter(s) will be fielded solo.

You have to jink with all vehicles in a squad? Why are the crimson hunters considered a squad? If you have two hive tyrants with 24 total TL shots as S6 and BS...3?, then 18 shots will hit, 3 will cause a glance, and 1,5 glances will be saved on a 4+. You shouldn't even need to jink against hat, but if you do then only 0.75 shots will make a glancing hit on average. Still, you need to get at least 2 crimsons on the table to take one out, or do crimson hunters as a formation all arrive on the same reinforcement roll?

How do psychich powers work on flyers in 7th, flyrants can reduce your fliers BS to 1 if they get the right power?

the 3 crimson hunter formation is what i was refering to, not 3 individual crimson hunters. I was under the impression the whole vehicle squad jinks if one of them jinks, thats how ive been playing my eldar hornets which is the only vehicle i ever had the chance to field in a squad.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

the 3 crimson hunter formation is what i was refering to, not 3 individual crimson hunters. I was under the impression the whole vehicle squad jinks if one of them jinks, thats how ive been playing my eldar hornets which is the only vehicle i ever had the chance to field in a squad.

Sure, but where does it say that the vehicles in a formation has to be a squad?

 Acidian wrote:

Sure, but where does it say that the vehicles in a formation has to be a squad?

Ooh, nice catch. Due to the similarities in meaning of "Squadron" and "Formation" when referring to planes, it's easy to make the mistake of thinking one means the other. I had been thinking that formation was a squadron of crimson hunters, which would be severely overpriced, IMO. But you're right, they're 3 individual crimson hunters, which is significantly different.