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 Sigvatr wrote:
That's what I was getting at.

She worked in the rapists' hands, yet she isn't to blame.

I didn't blame her.

I said the result was to be expected.

I hope more people learn from her experience instead of just demanding the world be safer with nothing to back it up.

 Medium of Death wrote:
The condemnation of the rapists is so obvious that I don't need to repeat myself or feel that I should even need to state it.

It is not. You should state it.
The fact is that you would rather blame people for going to “rape-place” rather than condemn those “rape-place” existing in the first place. You did not say “We should not let people go to highly promiscuous place and get drunk there because they may rape someone”, you said “People should avoid getting into highly promiscuous place where there are lots of drunk people because they may be raped”.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
The condemnation of the rapists is so obvious that I don't need to repeat myself or feel that I should even need to state it.

It is not. You should state it.
The fact is that you would rather blame people for going to “rape-place” rather than condemn those “rape-place” existing in the first place. You did not say “We should not let people go to highly promiscuous place and get drunk there because they may rape someone”, you said “People should avoid getting into highly promiscuous place where there are lots of drunk people because they may be raped”.

Just to clarification. I can affirm that situations where a rape is occurring should be met with a swift blinding Texas style response.
Does that work?

I have no idea what a swift blinding Texas style is.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no idea what a swift blinding Texas style is.

Visualize a boot to the head, if the boot was worn by a Ford 350 double dooley extended cab pickup with a steel pipe bumper (yes that is Frazzled's dream car).

Everyone online is immune to basic human psychology and would have been the one to step up.

Internet Tough Guy vs. The Bystander Effect!

 Carlson793 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I remember watching the horrific footage of that soldier getting killed in London, and I thought to myself, if only this was the USA, somebody would have opened fire and saved the day.

I'm not going to say that guns could solve every situation, but sometimes I do wonder...

Contrary to the popular conception elsewhere in the world, very few Americans are toting guns around with us. In general, the police are armed and the citizenry aren't carrying.

I carry - never seen anything like this or I probably would have shot some frat boys.


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 Ahtman wrote:
Everyone online is immune to basic human psychology and would have been the one to step up.

Internet Tough Guy vs. The Bystander Effect!

Bystander effect sounds a lot like gold old fashion fear. Fear is natural though - if you see a girl getting raped by 5 dudes and you are one dude - you probably shouldn't try to help - you should call the cops.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
The condemnation of the rapists is so obvious that I don't need to repeat myself or feel that I should even need to state it.

It is not. You should state it.
The fact is that you would rather blame people for going to “rape-place” rather than condemn those “rape-place” existing in the first place. You did not say “We should not let people go to highly promiscuous place and get drunk there because they may rape someone”, you said “People should avoid getting into highly promiscuous place where there are lots of drunk people because they may be raped”.

Because it's a practical, non Utopian solution.

It's far more complex than old fashion fear. It varies greatly on the context and situation. I assure you that you more than likely have done it and not even thought about it.

 Ahtman wrote:
Everyone online is immune to basic human psychology and would have been the one to step up.

Internet Tough Guy vs. The Bystander Effect!

Well I do have a daughter and anger management issues, so in this instance yea actually...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bystander effect sounds a lot like gold old fashion fear.

No, the bystander thing is when there's many strangers around to witness someone in trouble. First they'll look if the mythical Someone Else steps up, then they'll start thinking about whether they should do something or not. And why doesn't the big guy there help? Or the woman with the friendly face? That's why you should ask specific people to assist instead of shouting for help in general. It takes longer for a regular person to respond when he's not sure what to do.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Because it's a practical, non Utopian solution.

How is it more practical and less Utopian? It did not work any better, obviously.

 Medium of Death wrote:
Alcohol, promiscuous behaviour and likely drugs.

I mean it's probably not a sensible idea to pass out among men who partake in such things.

It's not victim blaming it's just common sense.

The people involved are disgusting but having looked at "Spring Break" pictures it's hardly surprising.

You're assuming that she had a choice in passing out. Why is this?

I find this very frustrating. I have read about the bystander effect, and know it is a very real thing. That said, I do wonder if smart phones are making things worse. Everyone wants to make a video, either to post on YouTube to go viral or because they think they are "helping" (and in fairness, sometimes they are if the video is used as evidence). But very rarely does anyone step in.

The other thing that bothers me though is that the police keep making comments about how people these days never do anything to help, and make comments about how they think smart phones are making the bystander effect worse (and I tend to agree with that part), but police have told people for years not to step in and get involved themselves. Every time someone steps in to help, even if they were doing the right thing and are entirely justified and successful, in the majority of cases the police say that that person should not have done that. But then you see horrible cases like this in which nobody lifts a finger, and the police are complaining about how horrible people are and how nobody does anything. Well, they've been telling everyone to not do anything for years and years. They can't have it both ways. Do they actually want citizens to help others, or not? Maybe they need to reevaluate the message that they've been sending to everyone in the country for years, rather than tell everyone to never do something, and then acting shocked when people actually don't do anything, just as they've been instructed.

It's a frustrating situation, and it's disgusting what happened. I hope they catch all the perpetrators. But I do wish someone would have tried to stop it as well.

 Ahtman wrote:
Everyone online is immune to basic human psychology and would have been the one to step up.

Internet Tough Guy vs. The Bystander Effect!

Obviously, I would have Judo Chopped all of the perps Austin Powers style before the assault took place.

 Hordini wrote:
I find this very frustrating. I have read about the bystander effect, and know it is a very real thing. That said, I do wonder if smart phones are making things worse. Everyone wants to make a video, either to post on YouTube to go viral or because they think they are "helping" (and in fairness, sometimes they are if the video is used as evidence). But very rarely does anyone step in.

The other thing that bothers me though is that the police keep making comments about how people these days never do anything to help, and make comments about how they think smart phones are making the bystander effect worse (and I tend to agree with that part), but police have told people for years not to step in and get involved themselves. Every time someone steps in to help, even if they were doing the right thing and are entirely justified and successful, in the majority of cases the police say that that person should not have done that. But then you see horrible cases like this in which nobody lifts a finger, and the police are complaining about how horrible people are and how nobody does anything. Well, they've been telling everyone to not do anything for years and years. They can't have it both ways. Do they actually want citizens to help others, or not? Maybe they need to reevaluate the message that they've been sending to everyone in the country for years, rather than tell everyone to never do something, and then acting shocked when people actually don't do anything, just as they've been instructed.

It's a frustrating situation, and it's disgusting what happened. I hope they catch all the perpetrators. But I do wish someone would have tried to stop it as well.

Well the middle ground is call 911 and be a good witness. That is helping without stepping in and being stupid.

Obviously, I would have Judo Chopped all of the perps Austin Powers style before the assault took place.

yea Baby yea?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
Alcohol, promiscuous behaviour and likely drugs.

I mean it's probably not a sensible idea to pass out among men who partake in such things.

It's not victim blaming it's just common sense.

The people involved are disgusting but having looked at "Spring Break" pictures it's hardly surprising.

You're assuming that she had a choice in passing out. Why is this?

I assume that everybody has a choice with what they put into their body. So if she got piss drunk and passed out.

If she was spiked that's an entirely different story.

I find that excuse is overused, however.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
I find this very frustrating. I have read about the bystander effect, and know it is a very real thing. That said, I do wonder if smart phones are making things worse. Everyone wants to make a video, either to post on YouTube to go viral or because they think they are "helping" (and in fairness, sometimes they are if the video is used as evidence). But very rarely does anyone step in.

The other thing that bothers me though is that the police keep making comments about how people these days never do anything to help, and make comments about how they think smart phones are making the bystander effect worse (and I tend to agree with that part), but police have told people for years not to step in and get involved themselves. Every time someone steps in to help, even if they were doing the right thing and are entirely justified and successful, in the majority of cases the police say that that person should not have done that. But then you see horrible cases like this in which nobody lifts a finger, and the police are complaining about how horrible people are and how nobody does anything. Well, they've been telling everyone to not do anything for years and years. They can't have it both ways. Do they actually want citizens to help others, or not? Maybe they need to reevaluate the message that they've been sending to everyone in the country for years, rather than tell everyone to never do something, and then acting shocked when people actually don't do anything, just as they've been instructed.

It's a frustrating situation, and it's disgusting what happened. I hope they catch all the perpetrators. But I do wish someone would have tried to stop it as well.

Well the middle ground is call 911 and be a good witness. That is helping without stepping in and being stupid.

I agree, but it seems like nobody was interested in doing that either.

Well, with the Bystander Effect, everyone believes in that magical "someone else" who will step up and do it. That's how it works. And it sounds perfectly logical to a person in the situation.

"If I call 911 now, it will only confuse things because someone else surely has called by now and I don't want to make it worse."

Is it right? No. But that is how it works.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I assume that everybody has a choice with what they put into their body. So if she got piss drunk and passed out.

If she was spiked that's an entirely different story.

I find that excuse is overused, however.

Yeah, let us not even get facts straight before victim blaming!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I assume that everybody has a choice with what they put into their body. So if she got piss drunk and passed out.

If she was spiked that's an entirely different story.

I find that excuse is overused, however.

Yeah, let us not even get facts straight before victim blaming!

What are you talking about?

It's my personal opinion [MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius] I'm arguing the practical point of the world isn't perfect so people should take care.

Is she to be blamed for getting herself into that position? Yes.

Does any blame she may bear for getting herself into such a situation reduce the blame on the lowly, pathetic mother fethers who raped her ? No. Does it change the fact that they should all be castrated with dull knives and slow-boiled in a vat of donkey piss? I shouldn't think so.

 Medium of Death wrote:


I assume that everybody has a choice with what they put into their body. So if she got piss drunk and passed out.

If she was spiked that's an entirely different story.

I find that excuse is overused, however.

So because she was drunk and female she got it cummin? It is not our fault that we males can't control our pecker?
So the feminist are right we live in a rape culture.

wow just wow.

 Hordini wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
I find this very frustrating. I have read about the bystander effect, and know it is a very real thing. That said, I do wonder if smart phones are making things worse. Everyone wants to make a video, either to post on YouTube to go viral or because they think they are "helping" (and in fairness, sometimes they are if the video is used as evidence). But very rarely does anyone step in.

The other thing that bothers me though is that the police keep making comments about how people these days never do anything to help, and make comments about how they think smart phones are making the bystander effect worse (and I tend to agree with that part), but police have told people for years not to step in and get involved themselves. Every time someone steps in to help, even if they were doing the right thing and are entirely justified and successful, in the majority of cases the police say that that person should not have done that. But then you see horrible cases like this in which nobody lifts a finger, and the police are complaining about how horrible people are and how nobody does anything. Well, they've been telling everyone to not do anything for years and years. They can't have it both ways. Do they actually want citizens to help others, or not? Maybe they need to reevaluate the message that they've been sending to everyone in the country for years, rather than tell everyone to never do something, and then acting shocked when people actually don't do anything, just as they've been instructed.

It's a frustrating situation, and it's disgusting what happened. I hope they catch all the perpetrators. But I do wish someone would have tried to stop it as well.

Well the middle ground is call 911 and be a good witness. That is helping without stepping in and being stupid.

I agree, but it seems like nobody was interested in doing that either.

The sad part is that smart phones are perfect for that, especially if there are at least two people there. One person calls 911 to get help, the other person films what is happening because a clear video of the crime is better than even the best witness would ever be. That would be the best combination of stopping the crime and making sure that justice can be served. Me and my brother were out at the lake when we saw an impaired person driving in the grass between the parking lot and the water and we were sure that she is going to manage to kill herself by driving into the water or run into some kids. I was in the phone with 911 and when she slowed down I was able to get next to the car to try to talk her down while on the phone with dispatch. During the same time my brother was recording the thing with the camera, making sure to get video of whenever she was driving around, her plates, and clear shots of her behind the wheel. When the cops got there and arrested her we gave them our info and our statements and a copy of the video. Of course during that whole time other people there were giving us crap for getting involved in the first place instead of minding our own business.

Now we are both active in the emergency field and are used to responding to stuff like that, so we are both very aware of the danger of the bystander effect. That's why in CPR they train you not to say "someone call 911" but to directly point at someone and get their attention and tell them "You! You call 911". A lot of time people want to help, but between not knowing what to do and thinking someone else is more knowledgeable and that they will help they end up freezing. It is something so common that I see it happen at work during a Code Blue. I usually end up taking charge and running the code and I always point directly at people to give them directions "You, start CPR", "You, get the pads ready and get me a rhythm", "You, string up an IV and pull up these drugs", "You, you are in charge of the airway so get a BVM ready". I don't work with idiots, they are all people who know what they are doing. But by giving every one of them a clearly defined role and responsibility you put them to work and allow them to focus. It's really just a miniature version of ICS. And ICS works for an event involving thousands of people, or something just involving a few people.


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 Stonebeard wrote:
Is she to be blamed for getting herself into that position? Yes.

Edit: just feth it. This thread is less than a page from getting locked anyway. Why even respond to this stupid line of thinking.

Why did you even acknowledge it D

 Jihadin wrote:
Why did you even acknowledge it D

Should have bystander effected it and kept on scrolling, I know.

 d-usa wrote:

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 Stonebeard wrote:
Is she to be blamed for getting herself into that position? Yes.

Edit: just feth it. This thread is less than a page from getting locked anyway. Why even respond to this stupid line of thinking.

How would she not be responsible for her actions? She is responsible for putting herself into a situation that would leave her more vulnerable to being abused. That doesn't mean she is responsible or bears any blame for being raped.

You know, I can't claim to know what I would have done were I there. I might've fallen in with the rest of the sheep for what all I know. Looking from down my ivory tower though, I know what should have been done.

I can only hope that's the kind of person I am in person though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stonebeard wrote:

How would she not be responsible for her actions? She is responsible for putting herself into a situation that would leave her more vulnerable to being abused. That doesn't mean she is responsible or bears any blame for being raped.

Sometimes I'm not sure we've deserved to get as far as we have. I'm not religious, but sometimes I wonder if god doesn't believe so much in us.

 daedalus wrote:
Sometimes I'm not sure we've deserved to get as far as we have. I'm not religious, but sometimes I wonder if god doesn't believe so much in us.

There's times where I wonder if all of humanity dying in a giant fire wouldn't be an improvement. There's a few good people that strive for making the world a better place, but as a whole humans are just savage animals when left to their own devices, it's just sad.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:


So the feminist are right we live in a rape culture.

No more than we live in a murder culture or robbery culture but there are bleeping sociopaths out there who all the "no means no" campaigns in the world aren't going to effect. I have no idea the details in this situation but UNFORTUNATELY watching what you drink around strange people is the same as locking your car door (Before telling me I'm wrong provide a logical explanation how there are different.). It shouldn't be necessary but thanks to the jackholes in society it is. Unfortunately the term "victim blaming" has now left the realm where it belongs (crime and punishment) and is now interfering in people protecting themselves.