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The problem is that "she shouldn't have been there" ultimately leads to "she shouldn't have been near another person" because hey, that other person could be a rapist, right?

It's all well and good to recommend that someone look out for themselves before something bad happens, but once something bad actually happens it's pointless and even when well-intentioned, can come across as "I told you so," which is equally pointless and can also increase the suffering of someone who has already been hurt.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Carlson793 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I remember watching the horrific footage of that soldier getting killed in London, and I thought to myself, if only this was the USA, somebody would have opened fire and saved the day.

I'm not going to say that guns could solve every situation, but sometimes I do wonder...

Contrary to the popular conception elsewhere in the world, very few Americans are toting guns around with us. In general, the police are armed and the citizenry aren't carrying.

What about open carry? I thought that was on the rise?

I agree that it's wrong to stereotype the USA as a gun mad nation, but whenever I see footage from Texas, everybody's walking around with at least three assault rifles on their backs.

That might just be Texas.

As an Iowan, I don't know of anyone I've ever seen carrying a gun on them. Definitely no open carries.

Open carry still isn't all that common. Even as pro-gun as I am, it still makes me turn my head when I see someone open carrying.

Concealed carry is a lot more common though. I plan on finally joining that bandwagon when I get home.

 djones520 wrote:
Open carry still isn't all that common. Even as pro-gun as I am, it still makes me turn my head when I see someone open carrying.

Same here. I think the only people I see consistently open carrying in my neck of the woods are the fellas that work at my local range.

I'm in TN and see open carry every now and again (yesterday in fact!) and am pretty much always concealed carry myself.

I would be interested to know the context of what the bystanders were seeing. Was it a girl completely unconscious surrounded by five guys high-fiving, or was it a guy and a girl having sex with a few guys nearby. In that environment of sexual drunken idiocy people might have been reluctant to call out someone who just looked to be having sex. It may have been easier to explain away than say a girl in an alleyway in a city.

Of course, these animals need some time in bigboy prison where hopefully they get the same treatment for about 20 years.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Carlson793 wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I remember watching the horrific footage of that soldier getting killed in London, and I thought to myself, if only this was the USA, somebody would have opened fire and saved the day.

I'm not going to say that guns could solve every situation, but sometimes I do wonder...

Contrary to the popular conception elsewhere in the world, very few Americans are toting guns around with us. In general, the police are armed and the citizenry aren't carrying.

What about open carry? I thought that was on the rise?

I agree that it's wrong to stereotype the USA as a gun mad nation, but whenever I see footage from Texas, everybody's walking around with at least three assault rifles on their backs.

That might just be Texas.

I think you might be buying into the media hype just a bit.

Open carry of handguns is currently illegal in Texas, although I believe open carry of long guns is legal. Not being from there myself, I'll let our Texan Dakkaites go into further detail if they wish.

Open carry is legal in Ohio. I've lived there most of my life and have never seen anyone open carrying in Ohio. I know one person who has done it, but I have never seen it myself.

I've seen someone open carrying once in Virginia. He was an employee working the register at a store that sells tactical gear and camping supplies, so to be honest it didn't even really seem out of place.

Most of the open carry that I've been made aware of consists of douchebags on YouTube open carrying in order to either get attention, antagonize local police, or both. That said, that's not all open carriers (just the ones with the most media attention) and I think there are very valid reasons for why open carry should remain legal and should be legalized in states where it is not, particularly since all states allow some form of concealed carry.

I know quite a few people who concealed carry, from multiple states. That said, they are still in the minority (both in my own anecdotal experience and in terms of data - while there has been an increase in concealed carry licenses, it is still only a small part of the population). I know way more people who don't carry.

 Hordini wrote:


Most of the open carry that I've been made aware of consists of douchebags on YouTube open carrying in order to either get attention, antagonize local police, or both. That said, that's not all open carriers (just the ones with the most media attention) and I think there are very valid reasons for why open carry should remain legal and should be legalized in states where it is not, particularly since all states allow some form of concealed carry.
.

And if you'll recall, the NRA initially called out said douchebags before (unfortunately, IMO) backpedaling to appease the 'harder' crowd.

I'm an NRA member. I have a CCW. I think people that open carry long guns do so to be antagonistic asshats and I don't think it helps the overall message. I don't think that should change the legality of it, but I think there are better times and places to exercise that right than while you're waiting on a burrito at Chipotle.

I'm an NRA member. I have a CCW. I think people that open carry long guns do so to be antagonistic asshats and I don't think it helps the overall message. I don't think that should change the legality of it, but I think there are better times and places to exercise that right than while you're waiting on a burrito at Chipotle.

IN the manner you're discussing yes. OC of long guns has been a long tradition, but not into restaurants and stores etc. That would have been considered low class and people doing it would have been thrown out immediately. OC in a rural environment is a non-issue which is where this typically (and still does) occur.

People don't get involved in mugging a and the like because you'll usually be outnumbered against them and they often carry knives. There have been quite a few high profile cases of people being killed trying to intervene in the UK and they tend to stick in the mind more than the cases where someone simply running over and shouting simply scares the attackers off.

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm an NRA member. I have a CCW. I think people that open carry long guns do so to be antagonistic asshats and I don't think it helps the overall message. I don't think that should change the legality of it, but I think there are better times and places to exercise that right than while you're waiting on a burrito at Chipotle.

IN the manner you're discussing yes. OC of long guns has been a long tradition, but not into restaurants and stores etc. That would have been considered low class and people doing it would have been thrown out immediately. OC in a rural environment is a non-issue which is where this typically (and still does) occur.

Yeah, when I'm talking about OC, I'm referring to handguns holstered on the hip. I'm not even counting long guns for hunting. I see that all the time (hunters walking in fields or along rural roads with shotguns, etc.). That doesn't really register to me as "OC", even though it technically is. I just think of it as "hunting." With OC, I'm thinking of someone walking around town.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
People don't get involved in mugging a and the like because you'll usually be outnumbered against them and they often carry knives. There have been quite a few high profile cases of people being killed trying to intervene in the UK and they tend to stick in the mind more than the cases where someone simply running over and shouting simply scares the attackers off.

Well, I suppose that's to be expected when law-abiding citizens generally aren't allowed to be armed. Not trying to be snarky - I respect that in the UK most people believe that the benefits of disarming the law-abiding populace outweigh the disadvantages. But there are disadvantages.

THis thread has it all. Classy victim blaming and now has somehow become a pro-gun thread.

Never change Dakka

Indeed, unless something can be salvaged from it that isn't either increasingly off topic or more disturbing stuff we're probably about done here...

 Bullockist wrote:
THis thread has it all. Classy victim blaming and now has somehow become a pro-gun thread.

Never change Dakka

Pro-gun is way better than victim-blaming. And it was a poster from the UK who brought guns up in the first place, so I think it should be allowed.

When a Pom brings up guns rather than a Yank, it doesn't become magically on-topic. Sorry Hordini

 Hordini wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

I'm an NRA member. I have a CCW. I think people that open carry long guns do so to be antagonistic asshats and I don't think it helps the overall message. I don't think that should change the legality of it, but I think there are better times and places to exercise that right than while you're waiting on a burrito at Chipotle.

IN the manner you're discussing yes. OC of long guns has been a long tradition, but not into restaurants and stores etc. That would have been considered low class and people doing it would have been thrown out immediately. OC in a rural environment is a non-issue which is where this typically (and still does) occur.

Yeah, when I'm talking about OC, I'm referring to handguns holstered on the hip. I'm not even counting long guns for hunting. I see that all the time (hunters walking in fields or along rural roads with shotguns, etc.). That doesn't really register to me as "OC", even though it technically is. I just think of it as "hunting." With OC, I'm thinking of someone walking around town.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
People don't get involved in mugging a and the like because you'll usually be outnumbered against them and they often carry knives. There have been quite a few high profile cases of people being killed trying to intervene in the UK and they tend to stick in the mind more than the cases where someone simply running over and shouting simply scares the attackers off.

Well, I suppose that's to be expected when law-abiding citizens generally aren't allowed to be armed. Not trying to be snarky - I respect that in the UK most people believe that the benefits of disarming the law-abiding populace outweigh the disadvantages. But there are disadvantages.

You're not allowed to be armed in the UK, that is true. But despite being allowed in the US, most people are not anyway, even though muggers are far more likely to be carrying a gun. So I don't think it's much of a disadvantage of the UK. How many mugging a are actually stopped by bystanders with guns, it must be a drop in an ocean of attacks every day across the country. Obviously it's an advantage if you're the one with the gun, but as a society the effect doesn't amount to enough to be an advantage. I bet people concealed carry still suffer bystander effect because they carry the gun to protect themselves, not get into a shootout with others.

 curran12 wrote:
Well, with the Bystander Effect, everyone believes in that magical "someone else" who will step up and do it. That's how it works. And it sounds perfectly logical to a person in the situation.
.

However thats not true, it's just the EXCUSE.

Bystander effect refers to people not getting involved as you say.
Taking photos of a rape is something else. Joking about it is something else, its illegal involuntary porn with audience participation.

There is a world of difference between, it's a rape, how shocking, hope someone does something about it, and hanging around dumbfounded, or trying to build up courage to act;
and, its a rape, lets watch for fun, and make jokes.

I have to wonder if someof the so called "bystanders" are legally definable as accomplices. Those which were recorded having conversations with the rapists, while raping the victim, and joked about 'she won't remember' because the victim was unconscious.

 motyak wrote:
When a Pom brings up guns rather than a Yank, it doesn't become magically on-topic. Sorry Hordini

Fair enough. I thought it was worth a try, at least.

 Orlanth wrote:


I have to wonder if someof the so called "bystanders" are legally definable as accomplices. Those which were recorded having conversations with the rapists, while raping the victim, and joked about 'she won't remember' because the victim was unconscious.

Legally impossible. If anything, you could sue them for denial of assistance.

Again, "bystander effect" isn't an excuse, it's an explanation for their behavior. It cannot be used as an excuse.

My sociology professor thinks im crazy for carrying concealed...this right here...is the reason why. People will literally watch someone get beaten to death in the street and just film it screaming "World star hip hop!!!"

Desensitization to violence. Society is disgusting sometimes.

 Sigvatr wrote:


Again, "bystander effect" isn't an excuse, it's an explanation for their behavior. It cannot be used as an excuse.

It's an excuse because it is NOT bystander effect, saying it is is the excuse.
Bystander effect = not getting involved because of fear or denial of responsibility.

- Laughing about an attack in progress.
- Filming it for titillation.

Those are NOT bystander effect, it's schadenfreude and illegal involuntary rape porn.

You can say bystander effect about those who didn't get their cameras out filming the details for lulz.

Lulz videos =/ bystander.

 Rippy wrote:
Desensitization to violence. Society is disgusting sometimes.

In their defense of everyone else, why should they help? You're not family and the potential negative consequences are high. At best thinking people will call 911, if they even notice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Supertony51 wrote:
My sociology professor thinks im crazy for carrying concealed...this right here...is the reason why. People will literally watch someone get beaten to death in the street and just film it screaming "World star hip hop!!!"

The first rule of CHL club is you don't tell others about CHL club!

This is why our daughter wants one as soon as she's legal (and doesn't know the wife carries what could only be described as a woman portable howitzer. )