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 EVIL INC wrote:
Unless your think as some do that the lasguns are really that powerfull.

Nobody thinks they're that powerful fluff-wise. The whole point of my "give lasguns STR D" argument is that the whole idea of giving out STR D to random "normal" units is so unbelievably stupid that you might as well just give it to lasguns and make "this game sucks, we're going to deliberately ruin it" official. Both STR D lasguns and STR D vanquishers are terrible ideas, so there's really no point in nitpicking about which one is just slightly worse.

There is a PM function for personal side conversations. Feel free to use them.

However, if you wish to join the topic, you have not answered the question at all
Fist, I agree with you in that they should not be handed out like candy. You are purposely ignoring that fact The question is..
IF the guard had to accept D weapons in order to maintain some sort of balance with your eldar army, what would be your choices that would be the most likely candidates without altering the fluff. You chose lasguns and flamers. Fair enough.
Others chose diferent options. We respectfully disagree with your choice of lasguns and flamers. Fair enough. We think others would be more likely candidates.

I think s d should not exist at all. That being said, if normal units are going to gain str d weapons the nids exocrine packs the bio plasmic cannon. Probably the gun that should be str d.

Thankfully, without FW, necrons only have one StrD attack and there is only a 1/6 chance of it happening everytime the C'tan shoots. Every codex can reasonably have one or two StrD weapons for stupid high costs, but other than that I say leave Str D to apoc.

I believe that that is something that, so far, it appears we all agree on. D weapons should be few and far between. some super heavies, super heavy walkers and apoc rather than being tossed like candy at a parade.

With the teaser leak of the eldar talking about D weapons being plentifull in the upcoming eldar, many people are wondering how other armies will be able to keep up.
First, I think we should not get overly excited without seeing the details. The D weapons mightbe super expensive in the eldar codex or nerfed in terms of delivery or a variety of other things. Also, having more than any other army doesnt mean there will be dozens of them in every list. A very small number of them is a lot. After all, currently, the only army I can think of where they are "plentiful" is knights with every model having one. But then, your looking at less than 6 and all of them being close combat only. Lets just see what the eldar have before making judgements....

Then, if we see, they do have the ability to reasonably take plenty of them, how will the other codices come back?
The thread is a discussion of "WHAT IF". It is NOT saying we agree ther should be plenty of them, it is designed to ask us our opinions of which weapons we (non-eldar) armies think would be the most likely candidates to get the D (that just sounds all kind of wrong but you know what i mean) IF (and ONLY if) we were forced to take the D (still sounding wrong but again, you know what i mean). Putting forth names of weapons doesnt mean we think they should get it, just mentioning ones we think would be the most likely candidates with the least fluff disruption.

 EVIL INC wrote:
IF the guard had to accept D weapons in order to maintain some sort of balance with your eldar army

And that's a broken premise because power creep is a terrible way to design a game. If we reach the point where we're giving out lots of balance mistakes (which aren't at all supported by the fluff) to make up for the Eldar balance mistake then the game is already ruined. The only sensible decision here is to change the Eldar rules to remove their excessive D-weapons and restore D-weapons to their proper place as rare LoW-only titan killers.


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 EVIL INC wrote:
most likely candidates with the least fluff disruption.

And the point is that hardly any of the proposed candidates are at all fluffy. There's no real fluff difference between guardsmen with STR D fists and LR Vanquishers with STR D guns, they're both completely unfluffy and nitpicking which one is slightly worse is pointless. If you put either of them in the game it's a concession that fluff no longer matters and it's all about power creep and stupid rules.

I would say, what other additions would be possible to even the field without adding D to a plethora of weapons? What other options could we have if the D is officially introduced to "normal armies" as the eldar leak leads us to believe? I've noticed that the skittarri offer us new weapons with special abilities, can we look at that route as an option for some armies?
We have one player that seems to think his eldar should be given D weaponry without balancing it among the other armies. That is fine. What do the rest of us think could be done to keep some sort of atleast a semblance of balance.

 EVIL INC wrote:
We have one player that seems to think his eldar should be given D weaponry without balancing it among the other armies.

Nice straw man. Let me repeat what I actually said:

The only sensible decision here is to change the Eldar rules to remove their excessive D-weapons and restore D-weapons to their proper place as rare LoW-only titan killers.

Marbo should be considered a D weapon, for all the damage he'll do when his codex finally comes out.

Are you watching the wizard of oz? thats the only place your going to see straw men outside of your own posts. But i think your more interested in trying to goad me than actually discuss the topic. For that, feel free to use the PM function.

But I do see you appear to have changed goal posts to use the nonsensicle football expression you see so often here)

The rest of us have been saying for several pages now that D weapons dont belong in normal games of 40k outside of apoc or super heavies and such (which many of us also dont believe belong in normal 40k outside of apoc or at least larger games but thats a different conversation).
Our FIST thought is that they should not be given out like candy as the eldar teaser suggests. We believe it should not be in the eldar codex in the first place.
We assume that GW being their pigheaded selves will not retract them at this time so while that would be the best option, we are resigned to it and are having a HYPOTHETICAL discussion of WHAT IFs.
IF other armies were to get D weapons, which weapons would be the easiest to "convert" with the least disruption to the fluff? That is not to say it would make sense or even not be a change to the fluff. Trust me, those of us who have been around for a while have seen that GW give exactly J and S (i'm sure you can figure out what words those letters represent) about the fluff.
On changes to the fluff, there are degrees of change. Some are large such as the change of ork history and fluff or the eradication of the squats and others are relatively minor such as the dropping of the lovable old ambull (although there may still be some somewhere to be later "found".
A new breakthrough of the cult mechanicus that allows the creation of a new vanquisher shell to be fired that would outdate the older sabot based vanquisher shells would be a minor addition to the fluff. One that would make sense with all the new mechanicus stuff coming out. Larger amounts of it being added to deathstrike shots could also be added in. Changing the source of the MoO "shots" would also be a minor change. Why not for a few more points or even the rerquirement that you also take a MoF (this would make more sense) have the "shots" come from orbit? Those would be relatively minor and unimportant changes compared to giving D shots to las guns and far less game changing.
Again, this is all hypothetical and no one is proposing anything. Just brainstorming ideas of what ifs. No need to get irate or bent out of shape. If someone has a different idea than you, so be it. No need to derail the thread.

I then ask the question, with the assumption that GW is not going to retract the number of D weapons to the eldar, what other things might "even the board" without resorting to just giving out more D weapons or going into the whole codex creep thing? addition of new types of shielding for vehicles that can negate D strength to be "10" instead such as ceremite negates melta? other possible options?

I kind of hate how every thread that Evil Inc posts in inevitably turns into a thread where he is the centre of attention. Sometimes it is ok to let a comment pass you by.

Strength D is a daft thing to add into normal 40k - I didn't mind it when it was mounted on mega-platforms like Stompas and Knights, since it made a certain sense - but giving it to dudes the size of Space Marines is really unpleasant. And arguably ranged is far worse than melee, given how the melee options require actual effort to use (and can be blocked with bubble wraps, etc). Unless Wraithguard cost 100pts each, I can't see how they would possibly be balanced against other units, both in their own book and in general.

Definitely D-emolisher cannons, D-oom Sirens, D-eathwind launchers and D-aggers.

D-aemons and D-readnoughts should probably get it, no matter what weapon they have. Still unsure about Siege D-rills, but Centurions could use the buff.

If Arbites became an army in 40k, they should most definitely have acces to D-oughnuts..

 ImAGeek wrote:
I can see the argument for the Deathstrike having it. It only fires once a game, and that's if you get the right roll (I assume that's still the case). I mean it's a warhead almost the size of the vehicle carrying it, strD would make sense there.

It's also not so bad on melee weapons for big scaries like the Knight, because you can mitigate it by avoiding combat where possible.

You obviously haven't played against knights. You can not avoid combat unless they only try to assault units you can avoid with. They tear through units with a Str 9 or 10(can't remember) then get stomp attacks, hammer of wrath, and then their attacks so they can squash another unit of 10 marines next turn. I've seen one take out a squad 30 models in a turn.


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Nvs wrote:
Since Eldar set a precedent, it goes without saying that every army will now need some access to it. Perhaps not to the same level that Eldar are rumored to be getting it, but at least one or 2 options.

If not for Eldar I'd say the only place these weapons should be found is on the terrain pieces that could be purched and things like that.

I'm honestly concerned about the books that came out before the Eldar book. It's not like Eldar is the first 8th edition book. Only Chaos and Dark Angels are left, right? So what are the other armies to do now?

Eldar set a precedent? What strength D did they have before the Knights were released? The Knight is not balanced and is available to every imperial army. The rules come with it so you don't need an extra book or anything. You just buy the model and add it to your imperial army. How exactly is that fair? So every imperial army has access and that it.

D was nerfed when they changed it to allow invulnerable saves. i've had a knight tied up for several turns by a single unit of grey knights.
On the knights though, they are available to pretty much any army. I've seen tyranid versions of them ork versions and chaos versions (havnt seen a tau version yet but I'm sure theres one out there. That they are available to any army means that they are already there. I think that there is a difference between adding in something like knights that are available to anyone (although I think they should only be available in larger games) A knight army is a different story as it has huge glaring weaknesses when fielded alone but even then, I would only field in a large game. having a large number of troops that can have them in only a single army, is, I think a bad idea.

Sorry, I shoulda passed by the posts designed to troll and not responded to them. But your right, seems like a lot of threads do have someone trying to instigate an argument from me so that they can be the center of attention. geting along and following the site rules as I do would get them more positive attention. I love the Daemon, Dohnut ect posts. Reminded me of the Xanth books.

What other options can you think of to even the fiel that doesnt involve adding in more D weapons (assuming of course that GW wont retract them from eldar?

 welshhoppo wrote:
Why don't we just get rid of strength values and just have strength d across the board.

If everyone has the same thing. Then it must be perfectly balanced.

i think it would ruin the game, though.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:
No unit should have Strength D. It's stupid and random and game-breaking. S10, AP1, with Instant Death is more than enough to simulate super-powerful weaponry.

I despise Strength D.

Instant Death does nothing against vehicles/buildings, which is partly the reason why S: D was introduced.

Also, Deathstrike should be S: D. It fires once per game, starting after the first turn, and can't move. If anything deserves D on a ranged attack, it's the Deathstrike.

yeah I've always thought the deathstrike should be strength D. it's a one shot uber missile.

 blood ravens addiction wrote:

 welshhoppo wrote:
Why don't we just get rid of strength values and just have strength d across the board.

If everyone has the same thing. Then it must be perfectly balanced.

i think it would ruin the game, though.

Implies that having some armies who are able to spam it whilst others have no access to it hasn't ruined the game already?

Strength D should be changed to "This attack on the roll of a +4 is now strength 55, instant death, armor bane, flesh bane, remove the enemy model from play, leadership of the hit squad is reduced by d6" Done.

I agree that the Deathstrike should be S: D. Also when fired it should hit every model on the board. This would represent it being detonated in a final desperate suicidal act of mutually assured destruction. Because if the enemy have made it to within visual range of your ICBM then something has gone horribly wrong and you're likely totally screwed. And also because in general launching ICBMs at dudes in small arms fire range is pretty fething slowed.

I think there should be less Strength D, but it seems as if Apocalypse only restrictions are being dismantled left, right and centre.

For Tau the Hammerhead Railgun is a good candidate. Indeed the nerfing of the Broadside Railguns to Strength 8 was due to the need to make the Hammerhead's Railgun stronger than the Broadsides due to the differing aesthetics. Of course, once you were at Strength 10, the only solutions were to either increase the Hammerhead to Strength D or bring the Broadsides down to Strength 8 or 9.

With no Strength D in standard 40k at the time, the result was the bitter, bitter tears of Tau players.

Elsewhere in Tau, I don't think there is a good candidate unless there is the decision to suddenly upgrade the Riptide into a Gargantuan Monstrous Creature or Super-heavy Walker. The Forgeworld units that should have Strength D already do.

Imperium in general, the various orbital bombardments should be D strength, which puts D in a lot of Imperium armies. Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

I can't really comment too specfically on other codexes.

Edit to add: I recall Astra Militarium Deathstrike Missiles being theoretically available with Vortex warheads according to the Munitions book. So there's a plausible unit upgrade to Strength D.

Jefffar wrote:
Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).

 Peregrine wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).

Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?

Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?

The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.

Jefffar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).

Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?

Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?

The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.

Funnily enough, none of those units have rules written by FW. The core GW studio wrote the current rules for the Thunderhawk, FW just casts the Resin. Likewise,only one IG Superheavy tank has a D weapon, and that's the Shadowsword, with both the rules and model made by core GW, not FW.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).

Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?

Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?

The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.

Funnily enough, none of those units have rules written by FW. The core GW studio wrote the current rules for the Thunderhawk, FW just casts the Resin. Likewise,only one IG Superheavy tank has a D weapon, and that's the Shadowsword, with both the rules and model made by core GW, not FW.

I'm surprised that there aren't other AM choices from FW with Strength D. In any case, a model currently made by Forgeworld provides Strength D to all Marine chapters.

At any rate, my point still stands, the Imperium already has a number of units with access to Strength D available to all of their armies either in codex (sometimes via Forgeworld) or through fellow Imperium Allies. There's a couple of Imperium items that logically could have Strength D as a part of their baseline or an upgrade, but its not like the Imperium is lacking in opportunity to wield Destroyer level weaponry. .

Jefffar wrote:
Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?

Nope. The Thunderhawk rules are in the "main GW" Escalation/Apocalypse books (Escalation was just a copy/paste of Apocalypse for another $50). FW casts and sells the models, but has nothing to do with the rules.

Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?

Nope. The only IG superheavy with a D-weapon is the Shadowsword, which has "main GW" rules in Escalation/Apocalypse and a plastic "main GW" kit. The only thing FW has to do with the Shadowsword is that they produce an aesthetic variant conversion kit.

Jefffar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).

Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?

Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?

The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.

Those MODELS are for escalation games only and cost anywhere from 500 - 700 points. They can't be grouped up into a unit of 5 or 10 in a regular game. I think one of the major concerns that people have is what's to stop someone from filling up a wave serpent - moving real close to the enemy line (or DS) and putting in a lot of S hits to anything that's a threat. Strength D is Death as it can fairly reliably destroy anything if you get ONE or TWO lucky hits. You are giving players the chance to field 15+ units with that ability and that's IF you're not forging the narrative and going unbound

For anyone that feels "it's not that bad", I'd invite you to play against a space marine player who has bolters that shoot S weapons. No, that's not right. Increase the toughness to T6 on the space marine and give it fearless. Now reduce the range on the bolter to 18" and play against that.

Jefffar wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Jefffar wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Other than that, the option to ally in Knights or to use various Forgeworld units provides lots of D strength options for those Imperium codexes lacking (Space Wolves for example).

Actually FW doesn't give any D-weapon options, other than the melee weapons on the knights (which are the same D-weapons as any other knight).

Forgive me as I am on the other side of the Pacific right now, but doesn't Forgeworld give every marine chapter access to a D Weapon on the Thunderhawk?

Likewise, aren't there Forgeworld super-heavy tanks available to the Astra Militarium with D strength weapons?

The base game currently includes Super-Heavies and Forgeworld. There is no reason to think that Forgeworld Super-Heavies are excluded.

Funnily enough, none of those units have rules written by FW. The core GW studio wrote the current rules for the Thunderhawk, FW just casts the Resin. Likewise,only one IG Superheavy tank has a D weapon, and that's the Shadowsword, with both the rules and model made by core GW, not FW.

I'm surprised that there aren't other AM choices from FW with Strength D.

Yup, in fact, most of FW's IG superheavy tanks are largely all disappointingly unimpressive, and they don't make anything heavier than the Baneblade chassis tanks, GW took over everything else.

The shadowsword is only available as a lord of war and is a single shot. the knights are a formation (unless you go with the as an army unto themselves) and their d weapon is "only" a close combat weapon. These are far different than being able to pay points for "tom dick and harry" units within a base codex.

I'm still of the mind that adding them to 'normal" units is a bad idea but with the precedent set by GW with the eldar, something needs to be done to "restore balance". We will assume GW is too pigheaded to retract them from eldar so we are just doing a little "what if excersize".