Ban Eldar from All Competitive Play. Operation Pitchfork.

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**Melissia**

Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?

When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

**Vaktathi**

Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz.

Yeah, five and six years and two editions ago. Not the releases over the last year, at least not to anything like we're seeing now.

**Melissia**

Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz.
Yeah, five and six years and two editions ago. Not the releases over the last year, at least not to anything like we're seeing now.

Selective memories.

There's no credibility to the chicken little claims made in this thread.

**Vaktathi**

Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz.
Yeah, five and six years and two editions ago. Not the releases over the last year, at least not to anything like we're seeing now.
Selective memories.

Well, when you find me the thread about how the Astra Militarum release was going to dominate and overthrow the game, let me know I guess.

There's no credibility to the chicken little claims made in this thread.

By this do you mean that you're assuming none of the leaks are true, or that you just don't think they're a big deal?

**Quickjager**

Actually no, this site stores threads. Go dig some up and prove us wrong.

**Code**

Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

**krodarklorr**

I'm enjoying some of the responses on this forum. "I don't agree with you, therefor your post is hyperbole".

Yup, sounds about right.

Either way, the Eldar players in my group got the most out of their Wraithguard last night, as they probably won't play them anytime soon after the new codex. It sucks when they're made to feel that way, because even they themselves think it's over the top. So, say what you want, but I don't play this game to watch Eldar constantly trump every other army.

**extremefreak17**

Code wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

**AllSeeingSkink**

Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

I wasn't playing when 5th ed guard was released. Which versions of GK and SW are you talking about? The latest ones didn't really seem to attract much "spaz". Certainly not the half dozen simultaneous running threads dedicated to the new Eldar dex, the most I remember was some stuff about TWC, but I don't think anyone actually thought it was all that awesome.

Tyranids didn't get "spaz" for being too weak to do ANYTHING AT ALL, they got "spaz" for being monobuild in a competitive environment... which they were and still are. They got fully justified "spaz" because GW didn't fix any of the glaring internal balance issues that existed in the previous codex.

**Martel732**

There was talk in the circles I ran in at that time. 5th ed IG was one of the most humbling matchups for meqs at the time. It was crazy. In a way, the 5th ed IG codex was the first "modern" codex. Ie, firepower as an absolute trump card. Assault can stay home and cry.

**Code**

extremefreak17 wrote:
Code wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Maybe the disparity between "strong" and "op" wasn't as big in 5th edition as it is in 7th.

**Martel732**

It was big. Make no mistake. Maybe the years of this happening over and over is provoking stronger and stronger responses.

There was a marine player who literally flipped a table and damaged hundreds of dollars of IG tanks because the IG guy killed like 55 marines in a turn. It was bad. The BA had a WD codex at the time. Hilarious!

**extremefreak17**

Code wrote:
extremefreak17 wrote:
Code wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Maybe the disparity between "strong" and "op" wasn't as big in 5th edition as it is in 7th.

I'm not buying that.

**Quickjager**

I didn't play GK for fifth, I went to orkz. Was more fun and was still assault-based.

**Vaktathi**

extremefreak17 wrote:
Code wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Except...we don't see this with every release.
Yesssss you do. Five years I've on this forum, five years that this forum has been filled with hyperbole and nonsense.
There's always hyperbole and nonsense, but who was sitting around with the GK, IG, Skitarii, or Ork releases with anything like we're seeing now?
When fifth edition Guard came out, there was spaz about that. Space Wolves got spaz. Grey Knights got spaz. Hell, Tyranids got spaz this time from players thinking it was too weak to do anything at all). Spaz spaz spaz and more spaz. Dakka's always been a hotbed of hyperbole and "it's OMGWTFBBQ so OP!"

You conveniently left out the part where all those people turned out to be right.
IG was the strongest army for a time (Leafblower). SW were a top tournament army with their insanely cheap missile launcher. Do we even need to talk about Grey Knights? And 5th Tyranids turned out to be pretty weak as well.

This is what bugs me about those "YOU STUPID THE-SKY-IS-FALLING PEOPLE" posts. They completely ignore, that most of the time those people are exactly right in the long run.

So why didn't we ban Guard, GK, and Wolves back then?

Partly because in many cases they had always been crap armies before that, as opposed to the Necron and Eldar books which both were top tier armies just made stronger

GK and IG especially were garbage armies from a competitive standpoint before their 5E books and had been for...pretty much ever, they'd never really been good.

But really, they just didn't have anything like what we're seeing from the Necron and Eldar books or "pulled from the realm of late night 4chan threads" the way this Eldar release is shaping up.

That said, I'm not advocating banning Eldar either (I don't think I've made any such statement anywhere).

Martel732 wrote:
There was talk in the circles I ran in at that time. 5th ed IG was one of the most humbling matchups for meqs at the time. It was crazy. In a way, the 5th ed IG codex was the first "modern" codex. Ie, firepower as an absolute trump card. Assault can stay home and cry.

Hrm, Space Marines, Space Wolves, BA's, and GK's weren't anything near helpless against IG. IG were one amongst several. Between SW long fang/razorback spam, SM Vulkan armies, Mech/Drop BA, and Mech GK, they matched IG pretty well if not better in many cases (certainly most were showing better tournament placing by the end of 5th than IG). IG could be absolutely brutal, but depended much more on getting turn 1 than any other army, and reserve denial worked amazingly well in 5th.

**Martel732**

I'm talking when IG first dropped.

**Vaktathi**

Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking when IG first dropped.

Eh, for a very short time perhaps. SW's came out just a few months later, SM's had come out ~7 months or so before and were doing *very* well with Vulkan armies (in fact, from the release of the SM book until SW's came out, I didn't seen an SM army that *didn't* have Vulkan, then everyone hopped on the "counts-as Space Wolves" train).

There was a lot of hype around IG after 'ar-boyz 2009, but that army also got first turn every game it played in the finals and had lots of opponents play into it by the player's own admission.

**Martel732**

For an average player, however, they were insane.

**Vaktathi**

I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

**Quickjager**

In short, there was a mono-build, not a codex-wide buff and viability.

**Martel732**

Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

That's all I was trying to point out. Now imagine regular lists against this Eldar codex. It's the same thing, but even worse.

**MWHistorian**

Where there's smoke there's fire. Melissa, you can't ignore everyone's opinion that doesn't agree with yours. People are pissed and they're pissed for a reason. For them, a close and fair game is what they find fun. They believe that the new eldar dex is so overpowered that it ruins their fun. The maths and passed experience makes them believe they are right. I've never seen so many posts about one codex release before and they're all really negative. Maybe instead of ignoring and insulting you try to reason with them and listen.

**Martel732**

I think there's a non-trivial amount of masochists that play this game and they look FORWARD to being crushed by the Eldar. That's all I've got at this point.

**j_p_chess**

Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Martel732 wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, competitively built 5E mech IG versus average joe non-vulkan SM's? Sure, super terrifying. But any non-mech IG army wasn't scaring anyone either

That's all I was trying to point out. Now imagine regular lists against this Eldar codex. It's the same thing, but even worse.

Go a step further - the competitive lists people are tailoring to beat the proposed Eldar power lists aren't really holding much of a candle.

In 5th, the power armies all stood a chance against one another. Even Chaos stood a pretty good chance with double Lash sorcerers. Dash of Pepper was routinely beating faces with Orks and the old phase out Necrons. It wasn't balanced but it was the most balanced edition to date.

Maybe system restoring 40k to 5th edition isn't the best answer, but it's a better answer than playing 7th edition. The fact is that people aren't just complaining about 40k because the game is far less balanced, they're complaining because it's a completely different game - one that a lot of people have a declining desire to play.

In the end, money talks. I built 3 armies over the course of 5th edition, and an honest cost estimate would be around $5000. Between 6th and 7 I've spent literally nothing because the game is fething garbage and I'd rather spend $5000 on a luxury watch or a bunch of guns than plastic men for a cracked out rule set that gets worse with every release.

**Quickjager**

Also Banshees are pretty good now ironically. Better than Wyches actually (and unfortunately).

**Veteran Sergeant**

MWHistorian wrote:
Melissa, you can't ignore everyone's opinion that doesn't agree with yours.

You are obviously unfamiliar with Melisia.

**Wayniac**

j_p_chess wrote:
Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

Except pictures of the Codex have actually been shown. It's not speculation, it's fact. This would be like someone getting the finished version of the new star wars movie before it's been out in theaters.

**A Town Called Malus**

j_p_chess wrote:
Can we wait two months after the codex comes out to make a judgement. This is like people loosing their minds about the new star wars movie.

So it's a perfectly sensible thing to do? Han Solo and Millenium Falcon WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

**Eadartri**

Gamgee wrote:
The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.

Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?

If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.

As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.

Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.

I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.

Edit
Since I started this thread and including myself there are four people who will no longer play against Eldar players. All it takes is a little team work. I'll continue to update this.
If I missed your name send me a PM or let me know in the thread and I'll add it.

Operation Members:
Gamgee
Orock
Torga_DW
Rippy

I disagree with your approach. I think you need to first demonstrate what you consider to be the problem and then show how a solution is not within reason or capability. I think those banned players will find other games/battles regardless and still others will find ways to win against them. Let's see some battle reports please.