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Same string of logic. Maybe all other races except eldar shoUld be banned from competitive play. Everyone elseems is doomed to playing bad video games like grand theft auto

 Pyeatt wrote:
Same string of logic. Maybe all other raves except eldar shoUld be banned from competitive play. Everyone elseems is doomed to playing bad video games like grand theft auto

No matter how many times you say this, I'm going to keep saying the same thing; your argument is reducto. ad. absurdbum. It fails to take into account any part of the reason this thread came into existence. It's the same thing as saying "why don't we just burn all of the models into plastic goo?" It makes no argument whatsoever other than to finger-wave away any points without consideration of information being presented.

Poly Ranger...

Is there any chance that you can fix the title so that it reads "Competitive Play"? It hurts my eyes seeing it every time it comes up on the list of threads >.<

I agree very strongly with Talys!

 Rippy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

Necrons are still more OP than Eldar, So are Grey Knights. And last I checked Space Marines still have Centurions and grav guns, and ATSKNF.

Tau and Eldar are about equal in power level and are probably just behind Space Marines and their variant flavors.

But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

yellowfever wrote:
The only thing I've always disliked is any army that can expand itself past the agreed point limit. Say we playing 2000 points. Daemons go first and spawn 200 extra points worth.

Now it's my turn and I got my 2000 points against your 2200 points. It may get worse or maybe I'll kill more/ you won't spawn as much. But the point is the army can break the agreed point limit. Or stick around better.

This is a problem in every single 40k game.

After the first player's turn 1, the first player has more points on the board than the second player. Because Daemons lack ranged firepower, the points totals are 2200 to 2000, instead of 2000 to 1800 (or much, much less depending on the army).

So this is exactly the same thing, except in the case of the Daemon's opponent, they still have all the rocks, papers and scissors. Against Tau (or now Eldar), the second player is missing a big chunk of his force.

Same thing.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

Necrons are still more OP than Eldar, So are Grey Knights. And last I checked Space Marines still have Centurions and grav guns, and ATSKNF.

Tau and Eldar are about equal in power level and are probably just behind Space Marines and their variant flavors.

O_o Grey Knights more OP than Eldar? I think you're the only one who holds that opinion, and tournament results certainly don't reflect that. Likewise for Tau, who aren't ranking anything near Eldar in tournament rankings in 7E.

But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

Yeah no. AV14 Wave Serpents and War Walkers. Carnifexes with 5+ armor saves. Heavy 3 Starcannons, like 6pt Plasma Guns, etc. That list was awful.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

I would agree to the 3E Rulebook lists being a fair starting point.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 Pyeatt wrote:
We should also ban Space Marines, Tau, all Chaos, Imperial Guard, Necrons, Orks, and anyone else I missed

I disagree, their codices are not terrible overpowered like the new Eldar one.

Necrons are still more OP than Eldar, So are Grey Knights. And last I checked Space Marines still have Centurions and grav guns, and ATSKNF.

Tau and Eldar are about equal in power level and are probably just behind Space Marines and their variant flavors.

O_o Grey Knights more OP than Eldar? I think you're the only one who holds that opinion, and tournament results certainly don't reflect that. Likewise for Tau, who aren't ranking anything near Eldar in tournament rankings in 7E.

But if you want to just fix and balance the game, use the old 3rd. Ed. rulebook, it had all the armies nicely balanced and included in the main rulebook.

Yeah no. AV14 Wave Serpents and War Walkers. Carnifexes with 5+ armor saves. Heavy 3 Starcannons, like 6pt Plasma Guns, etc. That list was awful.

AV 14 on the front only for War Walkers, and 14/14/10 for Serpents. That works very well to 'represent' a powerful force field IMHO rather then the current or even last edition Serpent Shield. I would think most people would rather the Serpent have that AV then the Shield. And Starcannons were just listed as plasma cannons in that old list. 6pt Plasma Guns was for BS3 IG, and let's face it. Unlike a Marine, you roll a one and it's pretty much dead guardsmen. So it was more then fair in my book. As far as Fexes go. 5+ may be a tad to low, but back then it's high toughness value and wounds kept it upright nicely. Plus, you couldn't 'shoot it' until you got rid of all the gaunts and stuff in front of it, as the rule for targeting monstrous creatures didn't come until later IIRC.

 bigyounk wrote:
I'll one up all of you. I stopped playing GW games over a year ago and it is glorious. Now I look at people playing 40K & WHFB at my FLGS and snicker as they are still drinking the kool-aid. GW games are terrible and pretty much always have been. There are numerous other choices now and one and all they are superior to GW rules and gameplay. The only edge GW has is in its models and variety of paint. These 2 areas are being eaten away as well, numerous companies produce figs as good as GW's now but not on their scale and other paints are superior in quality if not quantity.

My 2 cents to everyone is ditch your GW products while people are still dumb enough to buy your old armies and evolve as a gamer to better systems.

Have a good day all, I am.

Yeah we got a large and growing contingent of players who play other wargames at our FLGS. 40k is going out of style for good reason I must say. Oh well. I guess if GW dies or is bought out by someone I can hope to continue my 40k armies. Not that I invested much since I use so much proxies models other models because its too expensive.e

I don't really post a lot, but this thread seemd important to me, as an eldar player.

I only play with friends at home, never in any FLGS (because we dont have one primarily)
But i agree with the people saying banning eldar is punishing eldar players for something GW has done wrong.

Because i too think this is overpowered...my regular opponents include an ork and an IG player, i just don't see them winning if i was to build a power list.
i will try to purposely make a list which will be on par with there level, and fluffy (i play biel-tan, so i am actually dissapointed with has come out for the codex...again no Swordwind rules!)

Me leveling my army so it is less powerfull then it could be, for me, says that GW has REALLY dropped the ball on this one!
But that doesnt make it right to ban/punish eldar players, because again: it is not their choiche!

A boycot could work, but i dont really see a lot of players doing this in numbers that would hurt GW, so this is not an option either.

The only thing i think could work, is send mails/letters/homing pigeons with letters to their customer service, complaining about the broken rules.
If they get LOADS of complaints about the rules, they might do something about this.
Another thing to do is to find out who are in the board of directors, and sending them emails to their linkedin accounts for example.

But that means that all of you should not only mail them, but also ask other players in your group to mail them.

I for one have sent a letter to the customer service.

Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

And either you actually mean that, in which case it is a dick move for the people you play against. Or more likely you are being the bug guy on the internet trying to get a rise out of people.

Out of curiosity, how is taking your frustration at the Eldar Codex out on the people who play Eldar going to send a message to GW as opposed to sending a message to the Eldar players? And what is that message? "Oh, you can't use the army you bought and built and painted and you may have been playing since Rogue Trader completely independent of any friendly-play list you might build, we're going to blanket say 'no, we won't play with you anymore' because we don't like the new rules GW gave you"? "You have pointy-eared models, you must be a munchkin"? "You could potentially have a vastly stronger list than I do, so I'm going to take my ball and go home"?

Doesn't sound like "we don't like Eldar" to me. There's a person on the other side of the table, try talking to him. Or her.

So OP and his... crew(?), would actually turn down a game against anyone with an Eldar army?

I'll keep Rule #1 in mind and just say I find that incredibly narrow minded.

I've had the core of my Eldar Aspect army for about 23 years. The new rules I've seen leaked seem in keeping with the lore/background etc. Especially Warp Spiders, which are by far my favourite Eldar unit. Should I shelve them because it might make someone throw a tantrum?!*

*I've not actually played 40k for about two years, and haven't touched my Eldar in about ooooh 15.

Edit - AnomanderRake says it far better

 monders wrote:
Edit - AnomanderRake says it far better

(Personal experience. Had a big metal Daemonhunters army back in the day and the moment I get playable rules and plastic models my 'f'lgs declares a fatwah on GK players. I don't play there anymore.)

 Quickjager wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

And either you actually mean that, in which case it is a dick move for the people you play against. Or more likely you are being the bug guy on the internet trying to get a rise out of people.

Nah, I'm just a dick.

Well, noone's forcing you to spam the most broken stuff you have in casual games.

However, you must acknowledge that the new eldar dex does have many options of breaking a game. That's why people are discussing limitations to eldar players in competitive games. See, it's a funny situation where you're supposed to take the best you can to win games vs other people who take the best they can (competitive) but the new 7-th eldar dex is so badly ballanced that there's basically no use trying to compete with them with armies that are not eldar + allies like dark eldar (raiders, wwp) or guys that can get you 1-st turn more reliably.

 monders wrote:
*I've not actually played 40k for about two years, and haven't touched my Eldar in about ooooh 15.

I will admit I found this post kind of funny. I feel like one day in the future we're all just going to be discussing how we would do things if we theoretically still played 40k but we don't anymore.

Of course there is someone on the otherside of the table. They themselves are either going to be amiable or annoying, most of the time amiable. The amiable people will not play Eldar simply because they realize its a top-tier army in a FLGS that isn't competitive (this situation has already happened). Or they will bring the tourney comp everytime (which has also happened) until they realize no one can consistently beat them, in my case that person actually stopped coming, which was weird because he simply could have stepped his army down a notch.

But he didn't and if GW gave a feth, they would realize having an equally viable army range would SELL, but over the course of this edition we've seen internal balance flip-flopping (even if it started to becme balanced externally pre-cron) in such a way I am ready to toss my hat in with the people saying GW is actually intentionally malicious to balance so they can sell models.

Case in point Ork Bikers and Kan walls, Space Wolf Long Fangs and Grey Hunters, PAGK, pretty much most DE, Blood Angels... I can't think of anything (Martel I assume you can tell me).

 Quickjager wrote:

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
Might have to dig my elder out now that its going to irritate people to play them.

And either you actually mean that, in which case it is a dick move for the people you play against. Or more likely you are being the bug guy on the internet trying to get a rise out of people.

This whole thread is trying to do that and its still a silly thought and a complete overreaction. Lets alienate a chunk of the community because we don't like there book even though its not their fault and they may not even be playing with these so called "OP" units. The whole idea of this thread screams "cater the game to what I want and screw everyone else."

 koooaei wrote:
Well, noone's forcing you to spam the most broken stuff you have in casual games.

However, you must acknowledge that the new eldar dex does have many options of breaking a game. That's why people are discussing limitations to eldar players in competitive games. See, it's a funny situation where you're supposed to take the best you can to win games vs other people who take the best they can (competitive) but the new 7-th eldar dex is so badly ballanced that there's basically no use trying to compete with them with armies that are not eldar + allies like dark eldar (raiders, wwp) or guys that can get you 1-st turn more reliably.

Me? I don't have to acknowledge anything other than people getting in a tizzy over something very minor. Its only a game, after all.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, noone's forcing you to spam the most broken stuff you have in casual games.

However, you must acknowledge that the new eldar dex does have many options of breaking a game. That's why people are discussing limitations to eldar players in competitive games. See, it's a funny situation where you're supposed to take the best you can to win games vs other people who take the best they can (competitive) but the new 7-th eldar dex is so badly ballanced that there's basically no use trying to compete with them with armies that are not eldar + allies like dark eldar (raiders, wwp) or guys that can get you 1-st turn more reliably.

Me? I don't have to acknowledge anything other than people getting in a tizzy over something very minor. Its only a game, after all.

Oh, was responding to Monders.

And to you - yep, it's just a game. That's why we simply homerule stuff to make it enjoyable for everyone. Competitive tourneys are not like this, however. And this is a thread about eldar&competitive play.

The super serious world of competitive play? Man up and deal with it then. Bring yr A game or go home! That's what it all about, throwing down and winning!

 Quickjager wrote:
Of course there is someone on the otherside of the table. They themselves are either going to be amiable or annoying, most of the time amiable. The amiable people will not play Eldar simply because they realize its a top-tier army in a FLGS that isn't competitive (this situation has already happened). Or they will bring the tourney comp everytime (which has also happened) until they realize no one can consistently beat them, in my case that person actually stopped coming, which was weird because he simply could have stepped his army down a notch.

But he didn't and if GW gave a feth, they would realize having an equally viable army range would SELL, but over the course of this edition we've seen internal balance flip-flopping (even if it started to becme balanced externally pre-cron) in such a way I am ready to toss my hat in with the people saying GW is actually intentionally malicious to balance so they can sell models.

Case in point Ork Bikers and Kan walls, Space Wolf Long Fangs and Grey Hunters, PAGK, pretty much most DE, Blood Angels... I can't think of anything (Martel I assume you can tell me).

Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

This is why I can't stand 40k anymore. GW pisses me off, for obvious reasons, but I think the community is far, far worse. It's just full of people like this.

Not sure if it was clear or not but I was talking about Quickjager and agreeing with your point.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

This is why I can't stand 40k anymore. GW pisses me off, for obvious reasons, but I think the community is far, far worse. It's just full of people like this.

The thing people are overlooking in this debate is how many mediocre players there are. Bring me 10 competitive Eldar lists and my CSM will win 7 times based on knowing the actual rules and doing the best with what they have.

I don't put much stock in tournaments but really wonder why anyone would be in favor of any kind of restrictions. What does this actually prove except that people can afford the cost of admission?

Obviously boycott of players is not realistic, the thread is hilarious though, a pinnacle of 40k internet drama. But it's also somehow justified (drama not the idea to ban players) given that blatantly OP codex got more OP, a new level of GW being a dick. Shame as the latest releases were looking really good and now seem a bit spoiled.


What could work is eldar players not buying the book but Ive already seen a few who 'love it' so not really. On the other hand I dont care and wouldnt even if I played. It's just like impossible mode in some pc game, heaps of fun.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 monders wrote:
*I've not actually played 40k for about two years, and haven't touched my Eldar in about ooooh 15.

I will admit I found this post kind of funny. I feel like one day in the future we're all just going to be discussing how we would do things if we theoretically still played 40k but we don't anymore.

People that actually play will be scorned and laughed at.

I really was hoping to get my Eldar up and running again with the last book. But then they brought in a new edition, and I though "I've not even finished reading THIS set of rules yet!" then when I was ready to get the 7th rules mini book, they drop another Eldar codex.

SHEEEESH.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Let me try and follow your logic...someone who plays a Codex has no options but to either munchkin it up all the way to the ceiling and play the most tournament-competitive list possible...or not play the army? No middle ground? It's impossible to use the Eldar Codex and be a decent person?

(In case rhe subtlety isn't getting through this is exactly the kind of narrow-minded judgemental attitude I'm trying to point out the absurdity (and rudeness) of.)

This is why I can't stand 40k anymore. GW pisses me off, for obvious reasons, but I think the community is far, far worse. It's just full of people like this.

The thing people are overlooking in this debate is how many mediocre players there are. Bring me 10 competitive Eldar lists and my CSM will win 7 times based on knowing the actual rules and doing the best with what they have.

I don't put much stock in tournaments but really wonder why anyone would be in favor of any kind of restrictions. What does this actually prove except that people can afford the cost of admission?

It's not really being overlooked, it's just that 40k isn't a tactically deep game. Too much is based off of a single dice roll, which has an equal chance of any number coming up (compared to a 2d6, where you get a nice bell curve).
Dice means anything can happen, of course, but saying you're army has a 70:30 advantage over Eldar or Necrons because of your player skill is dubious at best as a claim.

1) You are assuming anyone playing a competitive eldar list is mediocre.
2) You are assuming you are an excellent player, without evidence supporting this.
3) You are assuming your skill is so large that you can overcome an inherent disadvantage in your codex to the point where you actually gain a significant advantage in the matchup.
4) You are assuming your skill is somehow relevant to a larger discussion.

People are in favor of restrictions in this game, and any tournament game, because it adds a semblance of balance back to a game that otherwise doesn't function. Many fighting games do the same thing, to stop the game being Akuma versus Akuma (not saying he was banned, just an example). People play in tournaments, in a more balanced setting, to prove who is the better player and to play against new people who they otherwise may never have gotten to play against.

In 40k, tournaments don't add much because different tournaments have different restrictions, though some of them are being widely regarded as successful (though the eldar codex does stomp on some of those rulings). In more competitive games, (WMH, SSB, Magic) being a competitive gamer means you can make statements like yours and be taken seriously. I may not agree with M2K on everything (I don't even like him personally), but when he says a character is overpowered, everyone listens.