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 Elemental wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Hey, toy soldiers is serious business... You'll get pinned one day, you'll see.

So essentially, you're trolling?

Wot? No, I'm just saying I enjoy the discussions on here, but try not to take it too seriously. It seems like it's easy to get rustled with some of the topics, particularly with the anonymity of an internet forum. Best to keep things non-personal.

Unless of course you're trolling me with thinking I'm trolling... Trollception...

 clamclaw wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Hey, toy soldiers is serious business... You'll get pinned one day, you'll see.

So essentially, you're trolling?

Wot? No, I'm just saying I enjoy the discussions on here, but try not to take it too seriously. It seems like it's easy to get rustled with some of the topics, particularly with the anonymity of an internet forum. Best to keep things non-personal.

Unless of course you're trolling me with thinking I'm trolling... Trollception...

Sounds like you're trolling. You're responding to criticisms with weird, trollish behavior that does nothing to further the conversation.

Something tells me that most of the people whining about the new codex haven't played against it...

 Toofast wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Chosen of Malal wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Btw can someone explain to me what's narrative about a psyker forgetting his powers after each battle and randomly learning new ones just before the next battle? Or your warlord giving a different buff to your army every time he steps on the battlefield? Or your speedy TWC running/charging a shorter distance than your big bulky terminators on foot?
Also, can someone tell me what's so "beer and pretzels" about a game that takes 20-30 mins each for setup and teardown, 2-3 hours minimum to play, has 500+ pages of rules that are complicated to learn and has an entry point somewhere around the $800 mark?

Hey Brent,

Remember that thing I said about when you can't win someone over to your point of view you move on to a topic and try to do it again there? You just copy and pasted this post from that exact conversation into this one. Thanks for proving me right.

That's not a counter-argument. I'm not sure what it is, other than random smugness, maybe?

That's because there isn't a logical counter argument to the points I make, so they resort to ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments. The white knights are out in full force, they've even followed me from Facebook to dakka to continue to not make any kind of logical counter argument.

I was already in the thread, Brent, I didn't specifically follow you here from FB to say anything. Just so happened you popped up in this thread saying the same tired gak you keep saying there.

 Owain wrote:
Something tells me that most of the people whining about the new codex haven't played against it...

I don't understand this point of view, I don't understand how you can't see what a unit will be capable of before it hits the table. Or do some people just pick units out of a bag when list making and try and make their army work from there? Or not look at their rules until you get to having a game and end up saying "so that's how that works".

But maybe it's just me and a few others with this amazing prophetic ability to see how a unit will work on a table, what will be able to counter it, what it will counter/ruin and how it will work in conjunction with other units.

Also assuming Toofast is Brent, can we just call him Toofast using irl names kinda defeats the point of having a username on the forum.

 clamclaw wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Hey, toy soldiers is serious business... You'll get pinned one day, you'll see.

So essentially, you're trolling?

Wot? No, I'm just saying I enjoy the discussions on here, but try not to take it too seriously. It seems like it's easy to get rustled with some of the topics, particularly with the anonymity of an internet forum. Best to keep things non-personal.

Unless of course you're trolling me with thinking I'm trolling... Trollception...

Some people do take this hobby seriously, and are really passionate. Just because you are not, doesn't let you dictate how others should enjoy their hobby, and you should not belittle others for the way they feel.

 Chosen of Malal wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Chosen of Malal wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Btw can someone explain to me what's narrative about a psyker forgetting his powers after each battle and randomly learning new ones just before the next battle? Or your warlord giving a different buff to your army every time he steps on the battlefield? Or your speedy TWC running/charging a shorter distance than your big bulky terminators on foot?
Also, can someone tell me what's so "beer and pretzels" about a game that takes 20-30 mins each for setup and teardown, 2-3 hours minimum to play, has 500+ pages of rules that are complicated to learn and has an entry point somewhere around the $800 mark?

Hey Brent,

Remember that thing I said about when you can't win someone over to your point of view you move on to a topic and try to do it again there? You just copy and pasted this post from that exact conversation into this one. Thanks for proving me right.

That's not a counter-argument. I'm not sure what it is, other than random smugness, maybe?

That's because there isn't a logical counter argument to the points I make, so they resort to ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments. The white knights are out in full force, they've even followed me from Facebook to dakka to continue to not make any kind of logical counter argument.

I was already in the thread, Brent, I didn't specifically follow you here from FB to say anything. Just so happened you popped up in this thread saying the same tired gak you keep saying there.

Calling it "tired gak" doesn't make my reasonable complaints any less valid, it just shows that you have no argument other than "GW is infallible and this game is awesome because reasons".

 Rippy wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Hey, toy soldiers is serious business... You'll get pinned one day, you'll see.

So essentially, you're trolling?

Wot? No, I'm just saying I enjoy the discussions on here, but try not to take it too seriously. It seems like it's easy to get rustled with some of the topics, particularly with the anonymity of an internet forum. Best to keep things non-personal.

Unless of course you're trolling me with thinking I'm trolling... Trollception...

Some people do take this hobby seriously, and are really passionate. Just because you are not, doesn't let you dictate how others should enjoy their hobby, and you should not belittle others for the way they feel.

Woah, wow. Let's take a step back here... I'm extremely passionate about the hobby (12+ years of collecting/painting, over 40 novels, having an Imperial Aquila tattoo done) and I don't see where I belittled anybodies feelings about the hobby.

My point is that I don't see a reason to take discussions on these boards as personal attacks (which I believe is actually a forum rule). More in reference to the comments in this thread referring to facebook and stalking others profiles, which tends to create more drama. I guess it's not kosher to be a little lighthearted when talking about a sci-fi miniature game? Too much doom and gloom sometimes (grimdark).

Tbf, the trollception comment made me chuckle.

Thing is clamclaw, whilst you are trying to be light hearted (which is completely fair enough), there are some (including me) who are rather miffed at the fact that a hobby we have put thousands and thousands of pounds into is being ruined by completely broken rules.

I haven't made a proper armylist in about a week (I usually make at least 2 or 3 a day - list building is a huge part of the hobby for me), because I just think 'what's the point? Anything I make with X dex can be made better with the eldar dex with very little thought put in'. This was always true between codexes, but now the gap is so astronomical, that I just don't see the point in trying to make, for example, a CSM list to compete with the top tier lists - because now it definitely can't be done.

 clamclaw wrote:

My point is that I don't see a reason to take discussions on these boards as personal attacks (which I believe is actually a forum rule). More in reference to the comments in this thread referring to facebook and stalking others profiles, which tends to create more drama. I guess it's not kosher to be a little lighthearted when talking about a sci-fi miniature game? Too much doom and gloom sometimes (grimdark).

I don't quite follow you here. So you're saying you don't approve of the whole facebook stuff... but don't say anything to it about the person who instigated it? Even when quoting said person? Because in case you didn't notice, Malal kinda dragged that crap into the thread.

Ban Eldar...even my ranger and striking scorpion based list? Thats just daft.

Just refuse to play against wraith knights or wraith guard or scatter laser bikes

I felt like getting into their argument would just make things messier... how wrong I was.

I'll concede and apologize for, whatever it was I did. Enjoy the thread, boys!

 Blacksails wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
There's plenty of stuff in the book that seems reasonably balanced. As long as you avoid jebikes, wraithknights, wraithguard, and probably four or five other units, it's probably a pretty fun book.

Pay $60.

Only use half the book.

Sounds legit.

Well now you know how Chaos Space Marine players feel.

 Owain wrote:
Something tells me that most of the people whining about the new codex haven't played against it...

yeah cos thats the only way to tell if a unit is broken - common sense and comparisons are useless obviously.

ah well another 2 years of Cheese Serpent style nonsense - lets see goes soemthing liek this

.............need to try it..........
well its good but people just need to adapt....
yeah theres this other thing, somewhere thats just as cheesy.....maybe sortof .....
its got to be fair GW made it and there is no FAQ.......
I once knew a friend who saw a game where it was rubbish

and of course

I want to win............hence super cheese

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
There's plenty of stuff in the book that seems reasonably balanced. As long as you avoid jebikes, wraithknights, wraithguard, and probably four or five other units, it's probably a pretty fun book.

Pay $60.

Only use half the book.

Sounds legit.

Well now you know how Chaos Space Marine players feel.

Hey-oh what do you know, this thread isn't even about CSM and yet here we are lamenting our piece of trash codex. We truly are the lost and damned of 40K.

I'm not that good a player.

In 4e I won roughly 70% of my games with tau. There were a lot of newbs at the GW store back then. +50% with SM armies.

5e I tried wolves (43% wins) and DE (52% wins). I have guard, I played bugs, many DA, DeathWing and more SW, all losing records. CHaos:SM (63%) & a few daemon games. I lost a lot in 5e

Playing Space Marines, I have done well, but power armor doesn't appeal so much anymore. Weird, given I have +60% W/L ratios with them in 4e, but 47% in 5e. Perhaps evidence I'm not a power gamer or TFG.

I never bought or played GK then. Hated them though.

I've been able to keep track on a spreadsheet, playing seldomly.

6e, it was Serpent Spam, around 40% wins, but I apparently got better and finished playing that codex to 54% through 7e.

I switched back to tau for a bit this year.

- - - - - - - - - -
Given the furor though, I'm going to look the eldar codex over, see what OP crap I can bring to my local, monthly RTT. Out of maybe 4+ years, I've went 3/0 W/L thrice, only winning Best Overall once. It was with Serpent Spam, last Dec. Holiday goofery game mechanics were employed, and I capitalized on them.

So, for the next tourney, this May 9th, if I win all 3 games, then yes, it's broken and time for folks to rage quit.

If I go my usual 1 and 2, then we can all relax.

I will post results after May 9th.

Well it seems to me that this dex is balanced against the Necrons dex, which is why you get these crazy high damage output units (fun fact -- 10 scatter laser bikes will kill a grand total of 3 Necron Immortals in a Decurion, less if a Resurrection Orb is used).

I suspect that future codexes will follow the same pattern, probably with their own Decurion/Warhost-type superformations and benefits. Expect Feel No Pain to pop up everywhere as GW tries to find some way to keep infantry that aren't Necrons alive.

BA already have access can still can't survive. The only hope I see is if BA get something like 18" jump packs that they can use in assault as well.

What BA will probably get is a bunch of Formations that will include things like inceased jump ability.

Alcibiades wrote:
What BA will probably get is a bunch of Formations that will include things like inceased jump ability.

Well they just a book and didn't jack crap that was worth a damn, especially against the Necrons and Eldar.

 clamclaw wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 clamclaw wrote:

Hey, toy soldiers is serious business... You'll get pinned one day, you'll see.

So essentially, you're trolling?

Wot? No, I'm just saying I enjoy the discussions on here, but try not to take it too seriously. It seems like it's easy to get rustled with some of the topics, particularly with the anonymity of an internet forum. Best to keep things non-personal.

Unless of course you're trolling me with thinking I'm trolling... Trollception...

Some people do take this hobby seriously, and are really passionate. Just because you are not, doesn't let you dictate how others should enjoy their hobby, and you should not belittle others for the way they feel.

Woah, wow. Let's take a step back here... I'm extremely passionate about the hobby (12+ years of collecting/painting, over 40 novels, having an Imperial Aquila tattoo done) and I don't see where I belittled anybodies feelings about the hobby.

My point is that I don't see a reason to take discussions on these boards as personal attacks (which I believe is actually a forum rule). More in reference to the comments in this thread referring to facebook and stalking others profiles, which tends to create more drama. I guess it's not kosher to be a little lighthearted when talking about a sci-fi miniature game? Too much doom and gloom sometimes (grimdark).

Although your intentions may have been good in nature, just remember, that unless you literally write what you mean people won't get it. Next time say "don't attack each other personally" rather than "don't get upset over man dollies" (which sounds hostile/attacking)

Martel732 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
What BA will probably get is a bunch of Formations that will include things like inceased jump ability.

Well they just a book and didn't jack crap that was worth a damn, especially against the Necrons and Eldar.

Prior to the big paradigm shift that was the Decurion.

Alcibiades wrote:
Well it seems to me that this dex is balanced against the Necrons dex, which is why you get these crazy high damage output units (fun fact -- 10 scatter laser bikes will kill a grand total of 3 Necron Immortals in a Decurion, less if a Resurrection Orb is used).

I suspect that future codexes will follow the same pattern, probably with their own Decurion/Warhost-type superformations and benefits. Expect Feel No Pain to pop up everywhere as GW tries to find some way to keep infantry that aren't Necrons alive.

All the other books were pretty well balanced internally and externally. The necron book was a mistake. RP got better as a mechanic, then they gave them a way to get +1 to it. If it's going to be a free FNP that works against double S and stuff that Ignores saves, it should have been 6+ with a buff that allows re rolls. An errata for RP would've been better than putting out a dex that takes down necrons with ease. Now what are they going to do for the rest of the books in this cycle? Riptide gets GC status and twin linked Ignores cover and LOS strength D gun of doom? Grav cannons are Salvo 8 with S D and 48" range?

 Rippy wrote:
Although your intentions may have been good in nature, just remember, that unless you literally write what you mean people won't get it. Next time say "don't attack each other personally" rather than "don't get upset over man dollies" (which sounds hostile/attacking)

They're also not simply man dollies, no matter what GW wants to believe.

 raiden wrote:
No need for this. Just stop buying the OP models. GW isn't going to listen until we cause them a LOT of monetary loss. Boycott would-be a better course

LOL! They lost 25% of their profits in 2014 and 2015 they are already down 1/16th so its going south fast and they still push this crap out.

 Toofast wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Well it seems to me that this dex is balanced against the Necrons dex, which is why you get these crazy high damage output units (fun fact -- 10 scatter laser bikes will kill a grand total of 3 Necron Immortals in a Decurion, less if a Resurrection Orb is used).

I suspect that future codexes will follow the same pattern, probably with their own Decurion/Warhost-type superformations and benefits. Expect Feel No Pain to pop up everywhere as GW tries to find some way to keep infantry that aren't Necrons alive.

All the other books were pretty well balanced internally and externally. The necron book was a mistake. RP got better as a mechanic, then they gave them a way to get +1 to it. If it's going to be a free FNP that works against double S and stuff that Ignores saves, it should have been 6+ with a buff that allows re rolls. An errata for RP would've been better than putting out a dex that takes down necrons with ease. Now what are they going to do for the rest of the books in this cycle? Riptide gets GC status and twin linked Ignores cover and LOS strength D gun of doom? Grav cannons are Salvo 8 with S D and 48" range?

Heh, you realise that a 6+ RP with rerolls would not work against double S, right? Double S is -1 on RP. I think 5+ is a good number. Getting +1 army wide is what is broken.

 Purifier wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Well it seems to me that this dex is balanced against the Necrons dex, which is why you get these crazy high damage output units (fun fact -- 10 scatter laser bikes will kill a grand total of 3 Necron Immortals in a Decurion, less if a Resurrection Orb is used).

I suspect that future codexes will follow the same pattern, probably with their own Decurion/Warhost-type superformations and benefits. Expect Feel No Pain to pop up everywhere as GW tries to find some way to keep infantry that aren't Necrons alive.

All the other books were pretty well balanced internally and externally. The necron book was a mistake. RP got better as a mechanic, then they gave them a way to get +1 to it. If it's going to be a free FNP that works against double S and stuff that Ignores saves, it should have been 6+ with a buff that allows re rolls. An errata for RP would've been better than putting out a dex that takes down necrons with ease. Now what are they going to do for the rest of the books in this cycle? Riptide gets GC status and twin linked Ignores cover and LOS strength D gun of doom? Grav cannons are Salvo 8 with S D and 48" range?

Heh, you realise that a 6+ RP with rerolls would not work against double S, right? Double S is -1 on RP. I think 5+ is a good number. Getting +1 army wide is what is broken.

You realize that with the wraithknight being taken from the Gale Fire Knight from epic that it should have been a gargantuan creature/superheavy walker from the start.

 Xerics wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Well it seems to me that this dex is balanced against the Necrons dex, which is why you get these crazy high damage output units (fun fact -- 10 scatter laser bikes will kill a grand total of 3 Necron Immortals in a Decurion, less if a Resurrection Orb is used).

I suspect that future codexes will follow the same pattern, probably with their own Decurion/Warhost-type superformations and benefits. Expect Feel No Pain to pop up everywhere as GW tries to find some way to keep infantry that aren't Necrons alive.

All the other books were pretty well balanced internally and externally. The necron book was a mistake. RP got better as a mechanic, then they gave them a way to get +1 to it. If it's going to be a free FNP that works against double S and stuff that Ignores saves, it should have been 6+ with a buff that allows re rolls. An errata for RP would've been better than putting out a dex that takes down necrons with ease. Now what are they going to do for the rest of the books in this cycle? Riptide gets GC status and twin linked Ignores cover and LOS strength D gun of doom? Grav cannons are Salvo 8 with S D and 48" range?

Heh, you realise that a 6+ RP with rerolls would not work against double S, right? Double S is -1 on RP. I think 5+ is a good number. Getting +1 army wide is what is broken.

You realize that with the wraithknight being taken from the Gale Fire Knight from epic that it should have been a gargantuan creature/superheavy walker from the start.

Did you quote the right thing? Because I was mentioning Necron-specific things and wasn't at all commenting on whether the WK should be a GC according to the fluff or a different boardgame.

Honestly, after getting the codex in my hands and reading through it 2 or 3 times, 80%+ of the book is fine. Strong, but reasonably balanced. Its the remaining 20 or so percent that breaks everything apart. Windrider hosts with shred on everything? 5 wraithguard with D templates for the same cost (or less) as a squad of tac termies gathering dust? An army full of nothing but str6 guns on fast platforms? Thirty-something point D platforms? Thats the broken stuff.

But those arent the worst offenders. Even though the wraithknight doesnt have the same butt-clenching effect as the old Transcendent C'tan, its still about 100-150 points undercosted for what it does, and just gets to run rampant against all but the most prepared players.

As of right now, im against banning the eldar book. But for the first time I am entirely in support of banning (at the very least) wraithknights/guard and D weapons platforms. They will still probably be the best codex, but not so powerful that there would be no point in bringing any other army.

It's really sad that it's come to this, but as it stands any below average player can show up at a local tournament with a bikes+wraiths army and clean house, beating even an experienced player with a well crafted and thought out army list.

 Mindstrike1 wrote:
Wow, good job.
Instead of getting better at the game you would rather just cry about it.

That's what I was thinking. I have a friend who plays Orks who can't wait to take on the new codex. Of course he's a good player who is constantly trying to improve his game.