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And if he is an ork player he doesn't mind getting his butt kicked frequently :-P

 Ghazkuul wrote:
And if he is an ork player he doesn't mind getting his butt kicked frequently :-P

Not really, he's only lost one tournament game in years and that was at the first place table in the first national Ard Boyz tournament. He pretty much laughs about people who whine that armies are unbeatable. Back when he played his way to the national tournament, it was common wisdom that the Ork codex at the time was garbage and no one could win against it. The person that beat him was another Ork player.

When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

He's saying git gud.

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

You didn't answer the question though. When did this unknown ork player breeze through tournaments an scoff at powerful codexes/lists? And what conventionally bad ork list did he run that allowed him to dominate all but another conventionally bad ork list?

Or are you just saying, git gud L2P?

Not that this will fix everything, but just house rule the WK to be more expensive than GW priced it. Sure...it's a bad can of worms to open, but EVERYONE knows and agrees that it's point cost is stupid low. For those that still aren't conviced:

Imperial Knight Titan is around 80pts more expensive and no where near as good as the WK.
Shadowsword (Super-Heavy tank with Strength D large blast) is around 150pts more expensive and not as good as the WK.
The Ork Stompa is over 800pts after you outfit it the way you'd like to play it, and while it has some tricks the WK does not have, it pays far too much to be only a smidge better than the WK.

And the kicker...Commander Dante, sweet ol' "he's-now-Eternal-Warrior-and-swings-at-initiative-so-he's-finally-worth-his-points" Dante, is only 75pts less than the WK. REALLY GW??

I'm fine with the new eldar codex having super awesome options. I like that most of the models have great rules and can be played without holding one's nose. Just make the point cost on a unit balanced in comparison to the other similar units in the game. That's all we're really asking for GW.

Looking at the above examples of Lord's of War, if the new Wraith Knight was somewhere around 400pts, I think the community would be able to swallow the rules changes and get on with their lives (or move onto the complaining about the Jetbikes or Swooping Hawks (4+ to haywire flyers they moved over? Holy crap!)).

So yeah...400pts base for a Wraithknight. Eldar players...it's the right thing to do.

Guys... You know that you can just house rule things down? Or just use the old codex? GW isn't forcing you to use their rules at all you can make edits to them with your gaming group till the FAQ comes out.

A lot of players at my FLGS complained about Dante when the new book was released, saying he was too over the top and was easily the most powerful of the chapter master level characters for less points.

To be fair, its not really a fair comparison. Dante is a fantastic combat character who buffs his squad, his detachment, and has a 6in fear bubble (granted, this part isnt huge, but vs certain armies is backbreaking). Both are undercosted though, to be sure. Just the WK moreso.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

You didn't answer the question though. When did this unknown ork player breeze through tournaments an scoff at powerful codexes/lists? And what conventionally bad ork list did he run that allowed him to dominate all but another conventionally bad ork list?

Or are you just saying, git gud L2P?

Actually I did, but you are so caught up in this mind set of," Eldar!? Flee, flee for you lives!", that you didn't catch it. I said he worked with what was viewed as a subpar codex that he was able to use to remain unbeaten, game wise, in any tournament he entered up to a sixth place finish in the first 'Ard Boyz national.

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

You didn't answer the question though. When did this unknown ork player breeze through tournaments an scoff at powerful codexes/lists? And what conventionally bad ork list did he run that allowed him to dominate all but another conventionally bad ork list?

Or are you just saying, git gud L2P?

Actually I did, but you are so caught up in this mind set of," Eldar!? Flee, flee for you lives!", that you didn't catch it. I said he worked with what was viewed as a subpar codex that he was able to use to remain unbeaten, game wise, in any tournament he entered up to a sixth place finish in the first 'Ard Boyz national.

No you didn't and haven't.

So its I know this awesome guy he says learn to play and get better...roger understood.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

You didn't answer the question though. When did this unknown ork player breeze through tournaments an scoff at powerful codexes/lists? And what conventionally bad ork list did he run that allowed him to dominate all but another conventionally bad ork list?

Or are you just saying, git gud L2P?

Actually I did, but you are so caught up in this mind set of," Eldar!? Flee, flee for you lives!", that you didn't catch it. I said he worked with what was viewed as a subpar codex that he was able to use to remain unbeaten, game wise, in any tournament he entered up to a sixth place finish in the first 'Ard Boyz national.

No you didn't and haven't.

So its I know this awesome guy he says learn to play and get better...roger understood.

Adapt your game or whine, your choice.

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

You didn't answer the question though. When did this unknown ork player breeze through tournaments an scoff at powerful codexes/lists? And what conventionally bad ork list did he run that allowed him to dominate all but another conventionally bad ork list?

Or are you just saying, git gud L2P?

Actually I did, but you are so caught up in this mind set of," Eldar!? Flee, flee for you lives!", that you didn't catch it. I said he worked with what was viewed as a subpar codex that he was able to use to remain unbeaten, game wise, in any tournament he entered up to a sixth place finish in the first 'Ard Boyz national.

No you didn't and haven't.

So its I know this awesome guy he says learn to play and get better...roger understood.

I now leave you to your whining. Enjoy.

Where is there whinning? What was the point of directly insulting me or anyone with a legitimate complaint?
If all you wanted to say was get better then why not just say it an move on satisfied you let us have it?

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Guys... You know that you can just house rule things down? Or just use the old codex? GW isn't forcing you to use their rules at all you can make edits to them with your gaming group till the FAQ comes out.

Fat lot of good that does if you mostly play pickup games and don't have a "gaming group" in the normal sense. A random person who shows up to 40k night to play isn't going to much like being told to use the old codex or be presented with a list of house rules that amends things. I sure as hell wouldn't like coming down to a shop with new Eldar and then being told "Nope, we don't allow that here. You can use the 6th edition book though."

Does it not seem like some kind of major flaw that you even NEED to house rule anything in a game where the rules and army lists alone, not even counting a single miniature, costs almost $150? Why on earth is there any sort of justification for that, let alone the typical comments that seem to just say oh well that's just how it goes. I honestly do not get how people can still defend this gak with a straight face.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 BrotherGecko wrote:
When does this anecdotal appeal to authority take place?

Or is it just another creative "git gud" comment?

Just shows that not everyone gets their butt kicked because of the perceived nature of a codex. There are people out there that can play the game well enough to see how they can win. Take it how you will.

You didn't answer the question though. When did this unknown ork player breeze through tournaments an scoff at powerful codexes/lists? And what conventionally bad ork list did he run that allowed him to dominate all but another conventionally bad ork list?

Or are you just saying, git gud L2P?

Actually I did, but you are so caught up in this mind set of," Eldar!? Flee, flee for you lives!", that you didn't catch it. I said he worked with what was viewed as a subpar codex that he was able to use to remain unbeaten, game wise, in any tournament he entered up to a sixth place finish in the first 'Ard Boyz national.

No you didn't and haven't.

So its I know this awesome guy he says learn to play and get better...roger understood.

I now leave you to your whining. Enjoy.

Where is there whinning? What was the point of directly insulting me or anyone with a legitimate complaint?

No insult, just answering your condescending statement. With that, I bow out

I'm not an Eldar player but they aren't that invincible. we had a doubles comp on Saturday and my partner and I took down two of them with just 3 exorcists and a squad of three Penitent engines. we talked to the elder player that brought them and said that out of the other five teams he was mostly worried about us and our three exorcists with Heavy D6 Str 8 AP 1 shots each turn and by the second turn the first one fell and by the third turn the second one was taken care of. it's tricky but doable. I would be interested in seeing how my drop pod SM army would go against them

 captain bloody fists wrote:
I'm not an Eldar player but they aren't that invincible. we had a doubles comp on Saturday and my partner and I took down two of them with just 3 exorcists and a squad of three Penitent engines. we talked to the elder player that brought them and said that out of the other five teams he was mostly worried about us and our three exorcists with Heavy D6 Str 8 AP 1 shots each turn and by the second turn the first one fell and by the third turn the second one was taken care of. it's tricky but doable. I would be interested in seeing how my drop pod SM army would go against them

Sounds like it was a good game.

Relapse wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:
I'm not an Eldar player but they aren't that invincible. we had a doubles comp on Saturday and my partner and I took down two of them with just 3 exorcists and a squad of three Penitent engines. we talked to the elder player that brought them and said that out of the other five teams he was mostly worried about us and our three exorcists with Heavy D6 Str 8 AP 1 shots each turn and by the second turn the first one fell and by the third turn the second one was taken care of. it's tricky but doable. I would be interested in seeing how my drop pod SM army would go against them

Sounds like it was a good game.

Actually it was probably one of the most nail biting games I've had for a while. For the day we came in 3rd out of 6 teams we were close to winning the elder game but we just didn't draw good objective cards.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
Guys... You know that you can just house rule things down? Or just use the old codex? GW isn't forcing you to use their rules at all you can make edits to them with your gaming group till the FAQ comes out.

Fat lot of good that does if you mostly play pickup games and don't have a "gaming group" in the normal sense. A random person who shows up to 40k night to play isn't going to much like being told to use the old codex or be presented with a list of house rules that amends things. I sure as hell wouldn't like coming down to a shop with new Eldar and then being told "Nope, we don't allow that here. You can use the 6th edition book though."

Does it not seem like some kind of major flaw that you even NEED to house rule anything in a game where the rules and army lists alone, not even counting a single miniature, costs almost $150? Why on earth is there any sort of justification for that, let alone the typical comments that seem to just say oh well that's just how it goes. I honestly do not get how people can still defend this gak with a straight face.

ASK POLITELY. COMMUNICATE. TALK TO PEOPLE.

It's possible to deal with a situation without making unilateral "this is how it has to be played" declarations and holding to them through thick and thin no matter how many people you annoy or games you have to refuse because your judgement isn't going to be held to.

So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

I play CSM. What counters does my army have? Don't say sicarans though until you watch the batrep I posted.

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

There's nothing about the new book that will entail any sort of different engagement methods/counters than there were before, it's just that Eldar are even better at anything they did than they were before, with the singular exception of the Wave Serpent and no more summoning Daemons.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

There's nothing about the new book that will entail any sort of different engagement methods/counters than there were before, it's just that Eldar are even better at anything they did than they were before, with the singular exception of the Wave Serpent and no more summoning Daemons.

But they can still summon daemons as per RAW. See other thread.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

There's nothing about the new book that will entail any sort of different engagement methods/counters than there were before, it's just that Eldar are even better at anything they did than they were before, with the singular exception of the Wave Serpent and no more summoning Daemons.

But they can still summon daemons as per RAW. See other thread.

regardless if someone really wants to get into that sort of absurd RAW mudfight, either way, point remains that counters to Eldar aren't any different, the Eldar are just better at everything they were already doing.

The next edition they will remove that from the BRB because every new codex will specifically state what psychic powers you can take, please don't rehash another stupid RAW/RAI argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing in my Ork Codex I can bring to Counter a WK will be a infantry spam army that closes with the WK and his escorts and gets it into CC so it can't hit me with SD ranged firepower. I won't bring vehicles because really? SD vs my trukk? not gonna happen.

Not trying to rehash Raw/Rai. Just pointing out that even when GW does try to limit eldar in some way, they still can't get it right.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

I play CSM. What counters does my army have? Don't say sicarans though until you watch the batrep I posted.

I tell you what. I have a Chaos army and will give it a go. I'll keep you posted, either here or PM you. Do you have demons to use with your marines or do you want me to use marines by themselves.


I'm pretty sure that already, players that run different armies are forming groups to test different builds and tactics and sharing results to see what works best. That is the nice thing about these forums, players can go through a lot of learning cycles and far more quickly find new tactics to beat a new codex version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
The next edition they will remove that from the BRB because every new codex will specifically state what psychic powers you can take, please don't rehash another stupid RAW/RAI argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing in my Ork Codex I can bring to Counter a WK will be a infantry spam army that closes with the WK and his escorts and gets it into CC so it can't hit me with SD ranged firepower. I won't bring vehicles because really? SD vs my trukk? not gonna happen.

Now you're on the right track. Running iterations and figuring new tactics. I have a feeling you are probably a better than average player.

Relapse wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

I play CSM. What counters does my army have? Don't say sicarans though until you watch the batrep I posted.

I tell you what. I have a Chaos army and will give it a go. I'll keep you posted, either here or PM you. Do you have demons to use with your marines or do you want me to use marines by themselves.


I'm pretty sure that already, players that run different armies are forming groups to test different builds and tactics and sharing results to see what works best. That is the nice thing about these forums, players can go through a lot of learning cycles and far more quickly find new tactics to beat a new codex version.

Cool. I usually run Iron Warriors or Night Lords, so few daemons, and certainly not allies. Plus I would like to see if a list from a single faction could reliably do it.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So what your saying is that the Eldar player, with 4 SD ranged weapons, never thought to shoot at your easily destroyed Exorcist tanks? and realistically I doubt 3 penitent engines could stand up to a WK unless it rolled garbage at its higher init. So what you have here really is a moron playing Eldar. That or you and your buddy focus fired your entire army at the two WK and that allowed for the Eldar player to use the rest of his army and his buddies to ROFL stomp you

Eldar will be beaten in many games. Even more as time goes on and people realize the counters their armies are capable of.

I play CSM. What counters does my army have? Don't say sicarans though until you watch the batrep I posted.

I tell you what. I have a Chaos army and will give it a go. I'll keep you posted, either here or PM you. Do you have demons to use with your marines or do you want me to use marines by themselves.


I'm pretty sure that already, players that run different armies are forming groups to test different builds and tactics and sharing results to see what works best. That is the nice thing about these forums, players can go through a lot of learning cycles and far more quickly find new tactics to beat a new codex version.

Cool. I usually run Iron Warriors or Night Lords, so few daemons, and certainly not allies. Plus I would like to see if a list from a single faction could reliably do it.

I'll run both armies separately and together and let you know. It'll be a couple of weeks because of RL commitments, but I will keep you in the loop.