Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let me start by saying that I am not a big GT guy. I go to local tournaments once in awhile, but I have never been a big competitive tournament guy.

I write up lists from time to time, post them here on Dakka get next to no comments because...

A. Either they are too big, and evidently most 40k gamers outside of a growing 30k fanbase don't like big games and...
B They don't include the copy and paste variety of lists that are supposed to go and be in the top 3 of any tournament out there.

I think that with this new codex and to a smaller extent the Necron codex, GW is trying to kill off the tournament scene within Warhammer 40k.

Makes sense from a business standpoint, and they are already achieving this with the Horus Heresy coming out of Forge world. I love the models so I buy the models. The Phalanx Warders might not be the best unit choice, but they look like this...



So i buy them.

If you are a big tournament guy you are going to out and get yourself an HQ probably a farseer on a bike, at least 30-40 jetbikes, and 1-3 Wraithknights, and whatever else you need to fill out 1850 (not that you need much outside of the Wraithknights and bikes).

If your goal is to win tournaments you will buy that and then go to the tournaments.

GW doesn't get anything from them. They don't offer support for them, and they sure as hell don't promote them, outside of having Forge World show up at events like Adepticon to peddle more resin crack.

This codex makes a complete mockery of the tournament structure.

Better hope you get the first turn against these guys because half your army isn't going to get a chance to fire back. D weapons at range is truly an abomination.

Thankfully the guys I game with in my local area are not big time competitive guys either, if anything I feel bad for a buddy of mine who has to play his spirit host as an unbound army.

First let me just say I haven't played competetively in quite some time. I only play these days with friends and family, and usually only when I go home for the holidays or birthdays and such.

Second, I don't really think the Eldar book will be the end of 40k at a competetive level as they'll just modify the rules to fix the problems if it turns out there really are problems (I agree there are, but I don't play enough to know/care).

Now that all said, I haven't kept up with the FW side of things and never played a game of 30k. Are their games significantly smaller? Are the rules better?

Rumors say that there is a HH title coming from GW proper sometime after the assassins game coming out next month. The rumors also say that these models will be useful in the future leading to speculation that GW will have their own HH/30k rules.

Perhaps this 'spinoff' will fill the tournament hole that you fear 40k will leave behind? It's clear GW will need to do something as they steadily lose market share to Warmachine and Armada. But who knows what's to come.

Nvs wrote:
First let me just say I haven't played competetively in quite some time. I only play these days with friends and family, and usually only when I go home for the holidays or birthdays and such.

Second, I don't really think the Eldar book will be the end of 40k at a competetive level as they'll just modify the rules to fix the problems if it turns out there really are problems (I agree there are, but I don't play enough to know/care).

Now that all said, I haven't kept up with the FW side of things and never played a game of 30k. Are their games significantly smaller? Are the rules better?

Rumors say that there is a HH title coming from GW proper sometime after the assassins game coming out next month. The rumors also say that these models will be useful in the future leading to speculation that GW will have their own HH/30k rules.

Perhaps this 'spinoff' will fill the tournament hole that you fear 40k will leave behind? It's clear GW will need to do something as they steadily lose market share to Warmachine and Armada. But who knows what's to come.

Actually 30k is designed around a much larger scale. 1850 is really the minimum you can run to get the most out of 30k.

30k is in my opinion the purest form of this game. There is the Mechanicum and now Imperial Army but even those are on par with the legions. The Legions have just enough flavor to differentiate themselves from each other while maintaining balance,

No worrying about facing D weapon toting Wraithknights or Riptides. It's marine on marine combat and everyone has access to to the same units and wargear.

It truly is an amazing creation. It has the balance everyone wishes for, along with the ability to field Horus and all the other Primarchs as well as so many awesome units and vehicles.

If the plastic Heresy rumors are true I am selling off my Grey Knights, Tau, and Daemons to start a second legion.

Google search #Lictorshame. How exactly does it make a mockery of tourney structure? Ok, the Jetbikes and wraiths are bonkers, but tourney caliber players can counter them. The Aspect Warriors something I've seen many Eldar players lament have been buffed and thus increasing tourney viable units. Yeah, it sucks that they invalidated the Iyandan concept but your group can take whatever 7th changes you like and throw out what you don't and let him play his Spirit host as a CAD like before.

No, Tournaments will keep chugging along. Why? Because, they are not about winning. They are about drinks, friends, drinks, playing people you have never me, drinking, visiting other places, drinking, and road trips.
40k is an afterthought.

Raven Cowl wrote:
Google search #Lictorshame. How exactly does it make a mockery of tourney structure? Ok, the Jetbikes and wraiths are bonkers, but tourney caliber players can counter them. The Aspect Warriors something I've seen many Eldar players lament have been buffed and thus increasing tourney viable units. Yeah, it sucks that they invalidated the Iyandan concept but your group can take whatever 7th changes you like and throw out what you don't and let him play his Spirit host as a CAD like before.

Ah yes is that the list that won the LVO? A mass summoning list won Adepticon. How do you counter T8 6 wound Gargantuan creature and bikes that can put out mass str6 fire at range.

Wraithguard? Not to worried if you let them get that close you deserve to be D weaponed to death, and besides the damn things were str 10 before.

Can you build a list to counter this abomination? Sure run a mirror list or take as many wraiths and night scythes as you can and keep them out of LOS

valace2 wrote:
A. Either they are too big, and evidently most 40k gamers outside of a growing 30k fanbase don't like big games and...

This has nothing to do with tournaments. High-point games aren't popular because the game becomes a tedious mess above 2000 points (and arguably above 1500ish). There are too many models for a 6x4 table (and larger tables aren't always available), IGOUGO makes you wait too long while your opponent finishes a whole turn, the game takes too long, etc. Killing off tournaments isn't going to make people buy 5000 point armies.

Makes sense from a business standpoint

No it doesn't. The existence of tournaments doesn't cost GW anything, so sacrificing product quality to destroy tournaments makes no sense at all. The much more reasonable explanation is that GW doesn't care about tournaments either way and is simply making no effort to support them. They aren't deliberately writing broken rules, they're just not putting any effort into developing better ones and nobody writes good rules the first time without playtesting and development. All of the things that are hurting tournaments right now are just as bad for "casual" and "narrative" games. But that doesn't matter to GW, because the GW™ Hobby™ is buying GW™ Products™, not playing games.

You don't believe that they are deliberately writing broken rules?

Honestly?

Maybe they just didn't realize that there is no other unit in the game as powerful at such a low point cost in the game?

Or that they also gave them hands down the best troop choice in the game?

Lets see do I try and hurt the unit that is basically erasing me from across the table, or maybe the bikes with the 3+ armour 3+ jink (if need be) that is picking apart my infantry. Can't forget the D weapon toting wraith units loaded up in a Wave Serpent that will be within range by turn 2.

If you don't go first against this codex a third or possibly half of your army will be headed back to the mini case before you can move your first unit.

valace2 wrote:

Raven Cowl wrote:
Google search #Lictorshame. How exactly does it make a mockery of tourney structure? Ok, the Jetbikes and wraiths are bonkers, but tourney caliber players can counter them. The Aspect Warriors something I've seen many Eldar players lament have been buffed and thus increasing tourney viable units. Yeah, it sucks that they invalidated the Iyandan concept but your group can take whatever 7th changes you like and throw out what you don't and let him play his Spirit host as a CAD like before.

Ah yes is that the list that won the LVO? A mass summoning list won Adepticon. How do you counter T8 6 wound Gargantuan creature and bikes that can put out mass str6 fire at range.

Wraithguard? Not to worried if you let them get that close you deserve to be D weaponed to death, and besides the damn things were str 10 before.

Can you build a list to counter this abomination? Sure run a mirror list or take as many wraiths and night scythes as you can and keep them out of LOS

I'm a very new player and play Dark Eldar and CSM, so I'm not sure exactly what the best counter would be. My plan with DE would be to run Reavers to get the xd6 str 6 rending HOW and Grots/Talos with Cronos Parasite Engine to boost feel no pain and be beefy multi-wound models. OR maybe the DE fear bomb. As for the WK either Prayer, Tableflipping (joke) or use gunboat warriors to try and force enough 6s to get the poison through. There are other threads devoted to countering newdar.

valace2 wrote:
You don't believe that they are deliberately writing broken rules?

No, I don't, because deliberately writing broken rules would be such a stupid idea that even GW wouldn't do it. And because I know how much effort it takes to make good rules. For example, WOTC has a large staff dedicated to game design and development, including paid playtesters, and spends months of hard work on every new set for MTG. That's because the first draft of a new set is always completely broken and the only way it gets to the point where it can be published is through lots of hard work. And despite this effort occasional mistakes slip through and have to be banned to preserve the tournament metagame. GW doesn't do that, so it's inevitable that completely broken rules are going to make it into finished products even if nobody is deliberately trying to break anything.

But tell me this: if you think GW is deliberately writing broken rules then why are they doing it? What do they gain from having broken rules, and how does it make up for losing customers who aren't happy about the rules?

I wish I knew, the obvious answer is so that they can sell more knights kits and those nice new bikes they just released.

The last codex was something people have been asking for for years, the Skitarii codex could have been a big piece of steaming dung and people would have bought it.

Forge World is also picking up some of the slack.

If it wasn't deliberate than it was incompetence, no other way something that bad gets released. Had the Skitarii codex been closer to OP than it was i could see them trying to push OP books but it wasn't.

GW wants you to buy Eldar.

As far as killing off tournaments whether deliberate or not should the trend of OP codices continue it will be a moot point.

He who rolls the highest to go first will have such an unfair advantage the game won't even be playable. Might as well have 100 people just sit around with a bunch of 6 sided dice trying to see who can roll the highest.

 Peregrine wrote:


But tell me this: if you think GW is deliberately writing broken rules then why are they doing it? What do they gain from having broken rules, and how does it make up for losing customers who aren't happy about the rules?

To boost model sales. The stronger the model rules are, the more it sells.

That being said, I personally think there's little malice involved. GW is simply really that dumb.

 Peregrine wrote:

valace2 wrote:
You don't believe that they are deliberately writing broken rules?

No, I don't, because deliberately writing broken rules would be such a stupid idea that even GW wouldn't do it. And because I know how much effort it takes to make good rules. For example, WOTC has a large staff dedicated to game design and development, including paid playtesters, and spends months of hard work on every new set for MTG. That's because the first draft of a new set is always completely broken and the only way it gets to the point where it can be published is through lots of hard work. And despite this effort occasional mistakes slip through and have to be banned to preserve the tournament metagame. GW doesn't do that, so it's inevitable that completely broken rules are going to make it into finished products even if nobody is deliberately trying to break anything.

But tell me this: if you think GW is deliberately writing broken rules then why are they doing it? What do they gain from having broken rules, and how does it make up for losing customers who aren't happy about the rules?

While I don't believe in the Malice based thoughts (I believe they are just terrible at writing, along with army favoritism considering Kelly), the thoughts here is that they believe they could quickly sell more of a certain stock at the expense of others, these new stocks being vastly expensive would outweigh the losses of any other sales.

And they don't believe the losses make up much if at all, they believe the rules don't sell much and that people are buying models just to buy their models, so they are just steering these people who do buy the rules into buying newer things.

valace2 wrote:
I wish I knew, the obvious answer is so that they can sell more knights kits and those nice new bikes they just released.

How does removing tournaments result in increased sales for those kits?

The last codex was something people have been asking for for years, the Skitarii codex could have been a big piece of steaming dung and people would have bought it.

Forge World is also picking up some of the slack.

But, again, these things are completely independent of tournaments.

If it wasn't deliberate than it was incompetence, no other way something that bad gets released.

Well yes, I've said many times that GW is run by incompetent morons and their rule authors would have been fired a long time ago by any other company. The Eldar codex is inexcusably bad, but it isn't a malicious attempt to destroy tournaments.

GW wants you to buy Eldar.

No, they want you to buy GW products. Turning a sale of space marines into jetbikes doesn't help GW at all. Nor does convincing the person who wants a new army to start Eldar instead of Skitarii.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
While I don't believe in the Malice based thoughts (I believe they are just terrible at writing, along with army favoritism considering Kelly), the thoughts here is that they believe they could quickly sell more of a certain stock at the expense of others, these new stocks being vastly expensive would outweigh the losses of any other sales.

But this doesn't match the trend we're seeing. New releases aren't consistently overpowered, which is what we'd expect if it's all about selling the newest kit as fast as possible. Nor are the new kits more expensive than older ones, so GW isn't getting more money from a player who starts a new Eldar army instead of a space marine army.

But this doesn't match the trend we're seeing. New releases aren't consistently overpowered, which is what we'd expect if it's all about selling the newest kit as fast as possible. Nor are the new kits more expensive than older ones, so GW isn't getting more money from a player who starts a new Eldar army instead of a space marine army.

There's a reason why I stated that this is less Malice and more stupidity, I was just guessing at what a potential thing could be.

Also, I'd be curious to see if a lot of the new jetbike sales aren't simply because they're plastic now. A material that is fairly easy to work with, not just due to thier new rules.

I'd not worry too much about tourneys - they'll just homerule stuff as they always do. Will probably force eldar to stick to 6-th dex or rewrite bikes and wraiths.

Well, GW doesn't support the tournament scene in the first place.
Look at PP, they provide decent support in the form of Steamroller.

GW playtest, but they don't stress test.

I don't think the playtesters go in with the mindset of "how can I make the most OP army ever" as this isn't the mindset 40k is designed for. Rather, they test "are these rules coherent and don't 'blue screen' the game".

For this reason I doubt GW playtest lists of 40 scatter laser bikes. At most the play testers might include a unit or two of windriders, each with a mixture of weapons.

The suggestion that GW overpower new rules to improve sales would make sense if they consistently did this. Instead it is pretty random what is over/underpowered. Plenty of new kits come out with below the curve rules.

I am not a tournament player myself, but how do tournament player not giving anything to GW. They buy armies, so they give money. They play big tournaments at cons, where other people can take a look more then just one army being played in a store at a time. They do free promo work, and I maybe wrong but doesn't that normaly cost money to do?
They buy books and expansion asap, because they can't use the no longer legal stuff. They can't play with printed stuff, like someone who doesn't play in a store or event.

nareik wrote:
GW playtest, but they don't stress test.

I don't think the playtesters go in with the mindset of "how can I make the most OP army ever" as this isn't the mindset 40k is designed for. Rather, they test "are these rules coherent and don't 'blue screen' the game".

For this reason I doubt GW playtest lists of 40 scatter laser bikes. At most the play testers might include a unit or two of windriders, each with a mixture of weapons.

The suggestion that GW overpower new rules to improve sales would make sense if they consistently did this. Instead it is pretty random what is over/underpowered. Plenty of new kits come out with below the curve rules.

Having seen some of their thought processes in the past, they thought Librarians were weak and Chaplains strong, so I'm not exactly sure of "Playtesting" so much as "We use whatever we kinda want, whatever happens happens" Considering half the time it used to seem like White Dwarf got half the rules wrong.

The whole point of playtesting is to "stress test" and see what's broken, whether because it's underpowered/overpowered by itself or in combination with something else in the army. If you're just going to take random units with a mixture of weapons, what the hell is the point of playtesting? You really don't even need to play this army on the table to see that 27 points for everything a jetbike can do is broken and allowing every bike to take special weapons is going to affect the balance of the game.

Froma friend there, they do now structure playtest, but as there is still no hard and fast points formula, tweaking of rules is subject to human bias, as ever

Unfortunately despite it having no lead name, I can only assume this is Phil "I love Eldar" Kelly again. Consistently exploits the current edition mechanics (3rd ed, 4th ed, 6th ed now 7th ed) to make one aspect of the army stronger than belief, as well as generally improving the whole army. Really only 5th edition is the only non-strong Eldar edition in the "modern" era (3rd onwards)

The most important thing play testing does is eliminate 'crash' type bugs. I agree balancing through play testing is also important, but is very much secondary to catching bugs that crash the game.

We have far fewer 'roll a 4+ to decide or quit the game' things than 20 years ago.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Froma friend there, they do now structure playtest, but as there is still no hard and fast points formula, tweaking of rules is subject to human bias, as ever

Unfortunately despite it having no lead name, I can only assume this is Phil "I love Eldar" Kelly again. Consistently exploits the current edition mechanics (3rd ed, 4th ed, 6th ed now 7th ed) to make one aspect of the army stronger than belief, as well as generally improving the whole army. Really only 5th edition is the only non-strong Eldar edition in the "modern" era (3rd onwards)

Might as well not playtest at all if such obvious nonsence sneaks past them. And not just on one unit!

If broken rulesets were a way to kill tournaments, this would have happened the last time they released an Eldar Codex.

I think people get this idea in their head that every winning tournament list is guaranteed to be successful. The reality is a little different, if you look at the results you will find it's often a small margin of victory between the top 10 and the next 40, either in terms of points or the outcome of a single round.

Does one more victory really mean an army is better? There's still a large degree of player skill involved, and some luck goes into winning a string of 4 - 8 games in a row. That's why we play the game and don't just decide outcomes based on probabilities.

Every year, after NOVA lists get published, there's anywhere from 10 - 30 people that come into my FLGS the next week to buy exact clones of winning armies. Mastering any new army takes a lot of practice, even for experienced players. It's a big letdown for someone who just spent $3,000 to get this awesome new force and see it beaten regularly by seasoned veterans who simply know how to counter their best units.

Tournaments will be around as long as there is 40k. GW can't really impact them with gimmicky rulesets and power creep, it's just stuff people get upset about on the Internet. There's no substitute for actually knowing the rules and playing the game with a calm, sober plan for how to win.

The tournament era of 40k ended a long time ago IMHO. If I ever decided to play again (unlikely with the bad rules and poor balance, but you never know) I'd 100% never play in any competitive event, local or otherwise. It would only be casual, laid back games preferably as part of a campaign or casual league. That's clearly the intended way to play the game.

Raven Cowl wrote:
Also, I'd be curious to see if a lot of the new jetbike sales aren't simply because they're plastic now. A material that is fairly easy to work with, not just due to thier new rules.

They were already plastic. The problem with the old bikes is that the model looked like crap on account of being nearly two decades old.

I'm playing in a couple of "semi competitive ournaments this weekend and in May - Bristol Vanguards excellent Vanquish 2 day event, and the one day A Small Matter of Honour in Aldershot (shout to anyone who might be going, I'll e having some good cider in Bristol I imagine )

Even with Tos attempts to suggest strongly that the spirit of the game is of both sides having fun, and Bristols comp system, it just hasnt kept pace.

For example they ban duplicate HQ - except that means 2 commissars would be right out, hardly "over powered" in any meaningful sense.

Unfortunately while hard comp is mostly accepted in WHFB tourneys in the UK, I think a) coming up with a workable system for 40k is monumentally more difficult and b) getting it accepted s going to be tricky

a) is simply down to the combinations possible. You cant really say "single book" or "single detachment" any longer, so youre having to look into each book and work out how it can combo with each other book - probably only as far as battle brothers, but still, it becomes significantly more difficult.

Will people still organise tournaments? Yes, if 5th ed mono-GK tourneys (ran one where 45% of the field of 40 or so were GK) are anything to go by, people will still have a desire to play in organised events.

Mysellf - I try to approach them as an excuse to see some beautiful armies (never attend anything like 'ard boyz. pointless wastes of time for me) , talk crap with 99.9% of the time lovely people, and have a mostly relaxing weekend. If by some miracle Im doing well, I know I'll bottle it last game anyway so it doesnt matter

 Sidstyler wrote:

Raven Cowl wrote:
Also, I'd be curious to see if a lot of the new jetbike sales aren't simply because they're plastic now. A material that is fairly easy to work with, not just due to thier new rules.

They were already plastic. The problem with the old bikes is that the model looked like crap on account of being nearly two decades old.

Oh wow they were so ugly I assumed they were metal or finecast yikes.

On topic, Tourneys are a lot like people who play guard. As long its what they want to do they'll find a way to do it.