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Is there a way to pledge for a single set of minis? Or can we wait till retail? Frankly, the larger Karists are all that interest me. Nothing else about this does. I want to love it but, the only thing that is cool for me is the Maelstrom, the Drones, art, and the larger Karists as I said.

Maybe the books will do it for me but, as much as I want to back this my tastes are aligning up.

Sorry guys.

I echo a lot of opinions already voiced by others, but in general, I wish the entire team the best of luck with it.

I'll wait until there's a totally-not-Necron faction.

 Stormwall wrote:
Is there a way to pledge for a single set of minis? Or can we wait till retail? Frankly, the larger Karists are all that interest me. Nothing else about this does. I want to love it but, the only thing that is cool for me is the Maelstrom, the Drones, art, and the larger Karists as I said.

Maybe the books will do it for me but, as much as I want to back this my tastes are aligning up.

Sorry guys.

We'll be doing an update on add-ons in the next week or so - watch this space.

Even living in the city for the last 10 years, I still wore chaps on a regular basis when doing work with a chainsaw. They are not exactly uncommon.

 Hordini wrote:
Regarding the Epirians and their chaps, I find it interesting that I keep seeing people describe them as wearing "assless" or "buttless" chaps, as if that's something weird or different from regular chaps. They're just normal chaps. That's what chaps are. Most chaps just cover the legs and don't cover the buttocks. People wear chaps to protect the legs, and they make sense if the Epirians are working on planets with a lot of thick brush or undergrowth. I don't know why some people seem to think they are some weird thing.

For one thing, never underestimate the lure of an easy joke. For another, the "assless" comments are not helped by where the detail draws the eye...

No matter how much I know that chaps are a useful garment for everyday people working tough jobs, my mind will always go to the Castro District Halloween Party first. Simply put, when I think of chaps, I don't tend to think of guys doing a job...er, not a job where they get paid..uh, you know what I mean. Gutter-mind is unavoidable for me.

 d-usa wrote:
Even living in the city for the last 10 years, I still wore chaps on a regular basis when doing work with a chainsaw. They are not exactly uncommon.

That's exactly why I was surprised at the reaction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


No matter how much I know that chaps are a useful garment for everyday people working tough jobs, my mind will always go to the Castro District Halloween Party first. Simply put, when I think of chaps, I don't tend to think of guys doing a job...er, not a job where they get paid..uh, you know what I mean. Gutter-mind is unavoidable for me.

Fair enough!

Initially I didn't want to say anything about the Epirian figures, as it seems too late in the process now for criticism to be constructive. I would like to support the dakka team as much as possible in launching their game, just as I have supported the dakka website. This is why I have pledged money to the kickstarter, and why I wanted to avoid saying anything overly negative about design choices that probably can't be changed. However, since they have already been mentioned by others now, I must concur that I am "put off" by the Epirian figures. While my feelings on this could easily be written-off as a subjective matter of "taste" (you can't please everyone), I think the issue might be more serious. The figures appear to have anatomical/scale issues, and I fear they might actually have worked against the success of the kickstarter (not that it isn't a success). Speaking only for myself, I can say that these figures are what put me off buying the full game. Instead I only pledged a smaller amount in order to help the project. Had the game come from anyone else other than Dakka, I would not have pledged at all.

I think what niggles at me the most is that there has been so much noise on the forum regarding plastic IG and scale: "bobble heads", "whole army of Rambo", "true scale marines" etc... I'm a little shocked that the dakka team weren't all over this. It's something that they really should have been tuned in to.

I've been staring at the figures all morning now, trying to figure out exactly what it is that I find "off". I think the bulk of the issue is coming from the arms appearing slightly too short. Especially from shoulder to elbow. Many heroic scale figures have arms down to their knees in order to keep proportion with the body. These guys have arms to where they should be for true scale figures, but the legs are much shorter than true scale, so it's all messed up. It would be interesting to see what they would look like with regular IG arms. I think the neck is also a little long for heroic scale, but that might not be too noticeable if the arms were fixed.

I did some quick doodles to try and illustrate what I mean:


I exaggerated the proportions further to make it more obvious. Figure 1 is the type of distortion I think is going on with the Epirians, this is what I see when I look at them. Figure 2 is more in line with what I would expect from heroic scale. Neither are in proportion, but figure 2 has a consistency that makes it work. Figure 1 by contrast is mixed up, and that makes it look kinda goofy.

I think they should break their plastic only promise and make a stretch goal resin epirian bob the builder... I mean contractor version in resin of your doodles!

I am more interested in the background at the moment than the game, but I owe Dakka a second look, which will come later.
I saw some small mecha for the game at Salute, one looking very similar to a clan Hellbringer the other being very alien and walking on insect legs.
They look interesting buit I cant afford yet another game. Dakka ir not, that would pretty much end it.

However the game background of the Maelstrom, and fleeing it, has caught my attention. It gives the game a strong survivalist element, on a national scale, which is a cool dynamic IMHO, but would also do well on a more individualistic level.
Who gets to evac, the rich? those in authoirty? or those who can steal a transport and resources for the journey? I can see a lot of the factionalism breaking down as gangs take transport resources by any means, and steal stores and transportable valuables and get themselves their families out and free; or for the most debased just themselves and hot looking slave girls captured along the way.
I can see this developing into something alongside the better thought thought zombie genres, the real threat is not the coming terror, but other survivors after the breakdown.
Evidently where the game is set breakdown hasn't happened. yet. But as the ticking clock gets closer to midnight the inner darkness of man will emerge. Even so some societal groups will still be trying to get it together for a collective escape, the dynamic of cultists embracing the maelstrom as a means of religious embetterment adds yet another facet. I sniff strong RPG backstory material here.

I bought both novels at Salute and lent them first to a friend, who gets more reading done than I do, when I get them back I will find out more.

 Orlanth wrote:
I am more interested in the background at the moment than the game, but I owe Dakka a second look, which will come later.
I saw some small mecha for the game at Salute, one looking very similar to a clan Hellbringer the other being very alien and walking on insect legs.
They look interesting buit I cant afford yet another game. Dakka ir not, that would pretty much end it.

I'm in it personally for the rules and possibly some of the yet to be previewed models assuming they change the policy of no add-ons (which they admittedly instituted for good reason).

I'd like some ability to build the Epirians (contractors and drones) in their non-combat civilian roles for ME and other games. Is an accessory sprue a possibility?

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'll wait until there's a totally-not-Necron faction.

You'll likely be waiting a while, since they've already said that this won't happen...

 Smacks wrote:
I think what niggles at me the most is that there has been so much noise on the forum regarding plastic IG and scale: "bobble heads", "whole army of Rambo", "true scale marines" etc... I'm a little shocked that the dakka team weren't all over this. It's something that they really should have been tuned in to.

The thing is, for all that some people dislike 'heroic' scale miniatures, a lot of other people do like them for wargaming.

I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.

The criticism of models like GW's guard was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.

 insaniak wrote:
The thing is, for all that some people dislike 'heroic' scale miniatures, a lot of other people do like them for wargaming.

I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.

The criticism of models like GW's guard was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.

No one was complaining about heroic scale, the Karist look fine. My point was that people care deeply about proportions and scale. The Epirians don't appear to be well proportioned (in any scale). Their arms are very short, and the shoulder pads make them look shorter still. This might make a bit of sense if they were all supposed to be built like Ronnie Coleman, but their necks are decidedly slender and "unheroic" (Ronnie Coleman doesn't really have a neck). The features combined look awkward. They remind me of the Thunderbirds puppets (and not just because of the Captain Scarlet headgear). I don't think it's fair to handwave that away with comments like "nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone", as that line could be used to justify pretty much any abomination, and really says nothing about the quality of the models. I haven't noticed anyone criticizing the Karist models, yet quite a few people in this topic have expressed dislike of the Epirians. I don't want to sound mean, but perhaps it really is a problem with the models, and not just the people.

 insaniak wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'll wait until there's a totally-not-Necron faction.

You'll likely be waiting a while, since they've already said that this won't happen...

Their loss

It doesn't have to be totally-not-Necron, but there isn't much more that could possibly represent a stoic faction focusing everything on a single goal with zero respect or interesting for anything. Extremely one-sided and simple. Straight-forward. No grey area or anything. No moral ambiguity. No emotional crap. Just getting straight in your face.

 Smacks wrote:
No one was complaining about heroic scale, the Karist look fine. My point was that people care deeply about proportions and scale. The Epirians don't appear to be well proportioned (in any scale). Their arms are very short, and the shoulder pads make them look shorter still. This might make a bit of sense if they were all supposed to be built like Ronnie Coleman, but their necks are decidedly slender and "unheroic" (Ronnie Coleman doesn't really have a neck). The features combined look awkward. They remind me of the Thunderbirds puppets (and not just because of the Captain Scarlet headgear). I don't think it's fair to handwave that away with comments like "nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone", as that line could be used to justify pretty much any abomination, and really says nothing about the quality of the models. I haven't noticed anyone criticizing the Karist models, yet quite a few people in this topic have expressed dislike of the Epirians. I don't want to sound mean, but perhaps it really is a problem with the models, and not just the people.

I can see the argument for heroic scale, and personally I like it. I see nothing wrong with the proportions of most GW model ranges, because they all have the same outscale proportions it looks ok, it even tricks the eye into making it look well proportioned.
The key however is consistency. I think the two range shown are not quite consistent and thus I can see where Smacks gets the idea of the Epirians 'puppet pose', I dont notice it when looking at the Epirians alone, but I did a little next to the Karists =, and certainly do when seeing them next to the IG comparion figure.
In that it is unfair, the figure comparisons are for identifying scale and not measuring proportions.
Still the army poses on the Eipirians make the elbows look too high, as if they are marionettes and have hidden strings. It might be a feature of assembly of those particular models as they appear to be multipose kits.
It could be that the problem sorts out itself.

Regardless, there is room for hard critique, we are Dakka after all. I don't think we do you justice without proper feedback, even if you are home team.

And while onto that, as some have picked up on already....

Frownbats

Why so serious?

Not the miniatures I would debut with.

 Smacks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
The thing is, for all that some people dislike 'heroic' scale miniatures, a lot of other people do like them for wargaming.

I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay.

The criticism of models like GW's guard was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.

No one was complaining about heroic scale, the Karist look fine. My point was that people care deeply about proportions and scale. The Epirians don't appear to be well proportioned (in any scale). Their arms are very short, and the shoulder pads make them look shorter still. This might make a bit of sense if they were all supposed to be built like Ronnie Coleman, but their necks are decidedly slender and "unheroic" (Ronnie Coleman doesn't really have a neck). The features combined look awkward. They remind me of the Thunderbirds puppets (and not just because of the Captain Scarlet headgear). I don't think it's fair to handwave that away with comments like "nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone", as that line could be used to justify pretty much any abomination, and really says nothing about the quality of the models. I haven't noticed anyone criticizing the Karist models, yet quite a few people in this topic have expressed dislike of the Epirians. I don't want to sound mean, but perhaps it really is a problem with the models, and not just the people.

That is exactly my issue with the eperians, true scale has nothing to do with it, the upper arms seem a tad short, hope they can address this at the next version of eperians

 Orlanth wrote:


However the game background of the Maelstrom, and fleeing it, has caught my attention. It gives the game a strong survivalist element, on a national scale, which is a cool dynamic IMHO, but would also do well on a more individualistic level.
Who gets to evac, the rich? those in authoirty? or those who can steal a transport and resources for the journey? I can see a lot of the factionalism breaking down as gangs take transport resources by any means, and steal stores and transportable valuables and get themselves their families out and free; or for the most debased just themselves and hot looking slave girls captured along the way.
I can see this developing into something alongside the better thought thought zombie genres, the real threat is not the coming terror, but other survivors after the breakdown.
Evidently where the game is set breakdown hasn't happened. yet. But as the ticking clock gets closer to midnight the inner darkness of man will emerge. Even so some societal groups will still be trying to get it together for a collective escape, the dynamic of cultists embracing the maelstrom as a means of religious embetterment adds yet another facet. I sniff strong RPG backstory material here.

I bought both novels at Salute and lent them first to a friend, who gets more reading done than I do, when I get them back I will find out more.

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what we are aiming for background-wise already! I'll be interested to hear your thoughts once you've read the novels.

 darrkespur wrote:
We also strive to make it internally consistent and rigorously designed. I hesitate to call it hard science fiction due to the expectations that brings on a setting - we still want to include a lot of things that make a space-based setting fun like FTL, aliens and advanced technology that doesn't exist yet, so we will be inventing some things that perhaps aren't entirely explained by current scientific laws. I'd probably call it 'harder' science fiction than what you see in many games, but not sacrificing the fun and potential of the stories we want to tell on the requirement to be ultra-factual.

Adding FTL, advanced technology and aliens is fine. Nobody has a problem with that. The issue is the more mundane stuff. Making gak up is okay if there's enough of a payoff to justify it, but there is no such payoff for giving the flying drones too few fans to maneuver, half-assing the scarecrows or giving the Epirians shoulder pads bigger than their heads.

 Stormphoenix wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


However the game background of the Maelstrom, and fleeing it, has caught my attention. It gives the game a strong survivalist element, on a national scale, which is a cool dynamic IMHO, but would also do well on a more individualistic level.
Who gets to evac, the rich? those in authoirty? or those who can steal a transport and resources for the journey? I can see a lot of the factionalism breaking down as gangs take transport resources by any means, and steal stores and transportable valuables and get themselves their families out and free; or for the most debased just themselves and hot looking slave girls captured along the way.
I can see this developing into something alongside the better thought thought zombie genres, the real threat is not the coming terror, but other survivors after the breakdown.
Evidently where the game is set breakdown hasn't happened. yet. But as the ticking clock gets closer to midnight the inner darkness of man will emerge. Even so some societal groups will still be trying to get it together for a collective escape, the dynamic of cultists embracing the maelstrom as a means of religious embetterment adds yet another facet. I sniff strong RPG backstory material here.

I bought both novels at Salute and lent them first to a friend, who gets more reading done than I do, when I get them back I will find out more.

Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on what we are aiming for background-wise already! I'll be interested to hear your thoughts once you've read the novels.

No problems. I will say where I think its could go very broadly, like a shotgun blast of consequences, they might seed you some more ideas.

Sounds like they're kind of hitting the same problem Firefly had. Firefly's a great show for many, but there's the weirder anachronisms that make it very hard for just as many to get interested. Chaps just happen to be one of those things.

I think the scarecrows are fine as silly robots. The core design is really good. However, the hard scifi descriptor they try to market with does conflict with the design from a practicality aspect. Even more so if the scarecrows were crappy labor bots first, and then it's even more likely that they should have had hands or wrist joints for generic labor.

They're trying a bit too hard in that marketing aspect.

I'd say stealing/using guns that are held is a lot easier than stealing guns actually built in to a big scary robot

so as these are deterrent rather than 1st line military units where absolute function would be the priority (so no humanoid robots) these make as much sense as anything

Anyone read through the rules PDF yet? I have, but I wanted to see others opinions.

 judgedoug wrote:
Anyone read through the rules PDF yet? I have, but I wanted to see others opinions.

You convinced me to take a look. I'm not much of a rules guy, and I haven't played Infinity, WMH or most of the other big games to compare this to, so take my opinion as that of a wargaming novice. So far, it looks like a ton of bookkeeping. Keeping track of command points, activations, victory points, stat cards for versus rolls, and suppression tokens. I can't imagine wanting to play this with more than 4, maybe 5, units per side.

It seems like this game will be all about who is least suppressed and who gets to move, as opposed to who wipes out whom. I guess that makes the game "tactical", but it also sounds intimidating for a casual player. The rolls certainly have a huge impact on the game, to the point where I can't imagine people who hate random charge distances are going to like it. The best strategy seems to be "roll well".


During the sample turn, the Karists' Mass number was used to determine how many Penetrations they could take before leaving the fight, but in the stat area, it lists Fortitude as the number of Penetrations a model can withstand. Contractors have both MAS and FOR stats, which do not match, so how many Penetrations can they take?

The ending conditions seem very cutthroat, which is probably great for tournament play, but won't go over so well when halfassing with friends. The VS rolls remind me of the old Star Wars RPG, so I'm cool with them.

It feels like there was a lot of pertinent information left out or glossed over during the intro and sample turn.

PS: In the description at the bottom, the Karists' trilenses should cover their RIGHT eyes.

I think the command point bidding is going to be a big positive and negative

(as bidding is in any boardgames that have it, some love the extra interaction it gives, others hate it)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think the command point bidding is going to be a big positive and negative

(as bidding is in any boardgames that have it, some love the extra interaction it gives, others hate it)

You know what game has a lot of bidding interactions? Monopoly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
So, reading more about the suppressions, it sounds like it's important to shake off the tokens.. 'Cause the opposing player's gonna play, play, play, play, play, and their shooters gonna shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot. So you just gotta shake, shake, shake, shake, shake. Shake 'em off. Shake 'em off.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
During the sample turn, the Karists' Mass number was used to determine how many Penetrations they could take before leaving the fight, but in the stat area, it lists Fortitude as the number of Penetrations a model can withstand. Contractors have both MAS and FOR stats, which do not match, so how many Penetrations can they take?

If I understand the intention correctly, if you have X Mass and Y Fortitude it takes X penetrations to cause an injury, and Y injuries to cause a casualty. So if you had two units, one with 6 mass and 1 fortitude and the other with 1 mass and 6 fortitude, they'd both take 6 penetrations to take down, but for the first one you have to do it all at once while you can whittle down the second over multiple rounds of shooting.

So Mas tokens are refreshed every turn, but For/injury tokens are not?

So, it's better for the bullet-catcher to be able to take a lot of penetration, even if a single injury will put him out.

" I believe yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay."

"The criticism of models like GW's guard [i]was considered, and is presumably one of the reasons that the proportions of the MEdge models are not as askew as they are (as evidenced by the scale pics lego posted) ... but the choice to go heroic scale wasn't a matter of not being 'tuned in' to the issues with heroic scale. It was a deliberate design choice that, admittedly, won't be for everyone... but nobody yet has released a range of gaming miniatures that is liked by everyone. That's an impossible goal. If they had gone for a more 'true scale' design philosophy, they would have people instead complaining about the models being too fiddly, or too fragile.

Gotta agree with above.

You can stylize in ways that aren't so radically distorted, and still maintain the visual cues for gameplay. Things like enlarging weapons, unique arm poses for specific weapons, extra bits for the back and head for specific models, etc.

But I also understand the difficulty of making plastics when starting out, and their need to maintain the marketing message.

They likely erred way too much on the side of caution when sculpting those ridiculous contractor proportions. Then on top of that, their aesthetic mindset and appeal is still firmly entrenched in old style 40k, the game that they hope to replace for themselves.

Stuff like the ridiculous shoulders on the contractors is more of a sign of inexperience and erring too much on the side of bulk so that the shoulder joints will connect. Then because of that, they backed off making the arms proper length. They might also be running into mold size limits, hence the squash.

I don't think future releases for ME will make that mistake, and that's already being shown. They'll find a way to have the compressed proportions without the obviously wrong ratios. Unfortunately, that does mean the early core models are stuck like this for a while, as no one will change such high cost molds.

And the rules are excellent so far. Has some legacy from that style of British/old-40k but with a lot of good extrapolations. Appeals to GW gamers in core style, but with all the modern methods along with a focus on more reasonably sized engagements.

underfire wargaming wrote:
I am very sorry to interject here, but " yakface and legoburner have both posted their justification for this in previous posts, but it essentially boils down to the fact that, for gaming miniatures, the exaggerated proportions make it a lot easier to tell what is what on the table, which makes for easier gameplay. " Is highly unfounded and unsupported,

It's a personal opinion. It's 'founded' and 'supported' by that opinion.

Whether or not you personally agree with it, well, that's up to you. The designers of the game do think that it makes for easier gameplay, and so that's the way they designed their game... and as a gamer with more than 20 years of playing various different games, I completely agree with them.

I love the look of truescale models for display pieces... but for gaming, I like the fact that you can tell what's what from 3 feet away, even if it does make the models look a little cartoony up close.

... why then is Infinity one of the best if not thee best selling Sci fi tabletop small scale skirmish game in the market place?

Because it's a good game?


Would it sell better or worse with 'heroic' scale miniatures instead of the more true-scale that they went with? We really have no way to tell.

Note though that even with the more true-scale proportions on the miniatures, their weapons are huge. It's the same principle at work, just applied specifically to weapons rather than to the whole models.

And yes, those oversized weapons are the most common complaint I've seen made about Infinity models, from those who would prefer more 'realistic' gear.

Some people support Heroic scale which is fine, but I do not know why they did not simply say because they prefer this scale over other scales.

Uh... they did. That was the bit about them preferring heroic scale because it's easier to tell what was going on.