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 Quintinus wrote:

insaniak wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Let me find the quote were Mods asked to step back from the main ME thread due to public perceptions of over-moderation. I know I just read that today.

You misunderstood. No, we didn't post a public announcement that the mods would spend less time in that thread... that would have just been an invitation for people to troll the thread.

But we did make a conscious decision for the mods to be slightly less involved in that thread, in order to try to lessen the perception that the thread was over-moderated, which was caused in large part simply by the participation of so many moderators in the thread.

Regarding the conspiracy claims, that is your word not mine. Labeling my observations as a conspiracy attempts to negate my claims and label me a lunatic. You even used that label before realizing what issue I was talking about, so really, who is creating a problem here?

You were complaining that people were being seen as shills due to their praising models after having seen them at some secret event that nobody else was invited to. I'm not really sure how else you were expecting a comment like that to be perceived.

Oh, you said it Insaniak. Is this conspiracy on my part, or are you admitting here that moderation in the main ME thread was heavy and as a result the mods were asked to ease up? Why would there be a need to "step back a bit" on the moderation if it wasn't too heavy to begin with?

This is no different to what would happen in any other thread on Dakka that had a similar level of involvement from the mod team... but because of the specific nature of this thread, people complained about us being biased and trying to overly moderate it. And so we backed off, and tried to let the thread run its course more organically.

So it's not so much that moderation was too heavy to begin with... but simply that it was perceived as being more heavily moderated than it should have been.

Kilkrazy wrote:As regards community involvement, several core members of Spiral Arm have written a number of detailed posts engaging with criticism of the rules, figures and fluff.

As a new user to Dakka, this thread is really putting me off of the community which I'd heard a lot of great things about. In just this very thread, we have normal users who are critiquing something and then every single rebuttal comes from someone with the [MOD] tag. Just on this very page, there are 3 mods! That's not the problem, but them calling normal users conspiracy theorists really doesn't come across well.

I think MEdge looks okay, sort of generic but with a little potential, but it makes me hardly want to post anything even constructive for the game now.

I can't help having a MOD tag, I am a moderator. That should not obscure the fact that if you post criticisms for the game, the chances are the creators will answer you with a detailed response.

OTOH there is no compulsion on you to contribute if you don't want to.

 Quintinus wrote:
As a new user to Dakka, this thread is really putting me off of the community which I'd heard a lot of great things about. In just this very thread, we have normal users who are critiquing something and then every single rebuttal comes from someone with the [MOD] tag. Just on this very page, there are 3 mods!

You'll get that quite a bit on Dakka, as most of the mods are fairly active posters. So particularly when something crosses the interest radar of multiple mods, it's not at all unusual for a few mods to all be participating in the same discussion... and pretty much all of Dakka's mod team are interested in MEdge, so a lot of us have been discussing it.

Outside of actual moderation, the opinions of moderators shouldn't be treated any differently to any other poster... we're just hobbyists like everyone else. None of the mods are part of the SAS design team, or speak in any official capacity for them.

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
1. The box doesn't have enough plastic in it. One poster pointed out that plastic minis only do well in Kickstarters if they are sold by the bucket or if they are amazing sculpts. The consensus is that Medge's sculpts are "pretty good" with a few exceptions depending on the beholder, so they can't use the Kingdom Death/WWX/Wyrd approach. That leaves the Mantic "quantity is a quality that's ...better than our quality" approach. People have stated that they would buy Medge minis if they had enough to use in other games (i.e. more than 5 troopers per type) in case they don't like Medge's rules. So, if it is at all possible, more plastic in the box, or better yet as add-ons, could make the game more attractive. A bulk deal for the terrain sprues would not go amiss since every discussion about them ends up with a backer asking how many one should buy.

Unfortunately, this is more a problem with Kickstarter and how people have come to perceive it as a result of past projects, than it is a problem with MEdge.

Without getting into semantics, let me just say that the backers aren't the ones asking for money. In fact, as a backer I'm pretty happy with the state of affairs that encourages the people I 'pre-order' with to give me more stuff if I'm going to have to wait. But I see your point and do feel bad for the little guys who can't 'play the game'.

Too many projects have gone for the 'cram everything they can find into the box' approach to entice people to get onboard, and as a result, people have come to expect that in every project... if you don't have more minis that you can fit in a minivan, and a new stretch goal adding more minis every time someone refreshes the page, then you're not 'good value'...

The weird thing is that this attitude persists despite so many of the projects that tried that approach winding up delaying fulfillment by years[i], or just running out of money because the end result simply wasn't profitable or wound up actually costing them money... which is more or less the exact [i]opposite of what Kickstarter is supposed to be for.

SAS went for a more measured approach precisely because they want this game to be an on-going affair. So yes, there's less bonus stuff to set the world on fire. But what that actually means is that what's in the box is the stuff that SAS are certain that they can actually provide at that price, within the specified timeframe. So the draw for this kickstarter isn't 'bucketloads of free stuff'... it's 'a functional game, that can conceivably be delivered when the developer said it would be'... because so many of them simply aren't.

That's a draw for the game. For a kickstarter, apparently it's not? Hopefully the retail release will show us the difference.

3. The fluff. It is difficult to translate a Man Vs Nature setting into a Man Vs Man wargame.

I really don't see this. 'Crappy catastrophe is happening... people act crappy as a result'. It's the perfect setting for a wargame.

You're right... it's not going to appeal to everyone. That's never going to be a designer's goal, though, because it's impossible.

Feedback on the setting has, from what I've seen, been largely positive. As in, really positive. People are excited about all of the possibilities inherent in it. And that's exactly what you want from a game setting.

Don't get me wrong. I love the setting and want to read novels set in it. Lots of novels. The complaints are more along the lines of "this enjoyable setting doesn't make me want to take out little soldiers and shoot stuff." I feel like the more inter-faction interactions and dynamics we see, the more people will settle in for the gaming side of the fluff. Some of what I said appears to have been addressed since the last time I had seen the main page, anyway. However, I'm still hearing from people with reservations about the setting, so I can only attribute that perception to "first impressions matter". The first impression many people had was the setting was very deep on the maelstrom and very shallow on the kinds of conflicts that would occur between the various groups, excluding simple claim-jumper skirmishes.

Someone said he changed his mind about the setting when he was able to read later descriptions that made him think of the old west.

4. The community. When I heard that Dakka was making a game, the potential community involvement was the first thing that excited me. However, the threads have turned this into Medge's great weakness. People who are far less abrasive than I am have complained that they don't feel safe posting in Medge threads. They are still saying that. The community has absolutely not been welcoming. Yes, there is a lot of criticism, but that just means people care enough to comment in the first place. I don't even know what to say about this problem except that you can't expect Dakka to engage with your game if you won't engage with Dakka.

So - you want the people behind the game to 'engage' with 'Dakka'... but you want them to be more hands off, so that people feel 'safe' to post their opinions?

I don't believe those are the only two options, or that they need to be completely binary. Besides, the perception and the first impressions matter. The thread feels oppressive to some posters even if it no longer actually is. Some strong lines had already been drawn by the end of the first week and many casuals had already written ME off.

I'm not sure you can have both.

There has been plenty of open discussion, from a community that (by and large) has been extremely welcoming. As far as I can recall, not one post has been removed from the News thread. Nor have any warnings been issued to anyone, other than general in-thread notes to get back on-topic. A whole bunch of moderators have posted in the discussion... because they're excited about the project, and it's something that they want to talk about.

If people are feeling 'stifled' as a result, then I would wonder if perhaps the issue might be more with their preferred way of presenting their opinion, rather than with the actual opinion itself. Ultimately, the same rules apply to MEdge threads as apply to any other part of the site. Opinions are welcome, and a lot of posters have managed to present theirs (positive and negative) without being whisked away in black cars in the dead of night.

You can immediately tell that the ME thread is not like other kickstarter threads. Doesn't really matter why any more. Besides, even heavy moderation here is a light tickle compared to some other forums, so it will always be a relative term without resorting to secret police references and what not.

There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
.

That's a really interesting comment. Hadn't considered it before, but it's pretty interesting.

 legoburner wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
So, here's the thing. I want Medge to survive and prosper. I want to be able to read Medge novels while building Medge minis that I will never paint. I want people to have enthusiastic discussions about the Medge background and rules. I want a Medge HHHobby. I gather that's what the creators were aiming for, too.

There are quite a few points in your comments that are not quite accurate, or do not fully apply to Spiral Arm Studios. I'm replying 'off the record' but just wanted to address some of them in case others have similar concerns. I wont address everything though, but please dont take silence on points for confirmation, more that time is limited this week, so best to just point out the key ones.

Thank you for addressing what you can. I admit that I have rested a lot of my observations on first impressions and earlier iterations of the site. I feel that is fair, though, as most backers tend to look at a project once and decide if they will back or not, only coming back for a second look on the last day if they ever give it a second glance at all.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
The Kickstarter campaign doesn't seem to have lit the room on fire. This worries me because I'm afraid people who passed on the KS will have inertia against Medge when it comes out in retail. With only a few hundred backers worldwide, Medge will have a long uphill struggle to succeed based on local gaming clubs, word of mouth, and FLGS presence.

Getting people to start a new game is a big ask, which is why we are pushing with quality first and foremost, and a constant drive of fiction and hobby materials to slowly rope people in. The game is the key element, but Maelstrom's Edge as a whole consists of fiction, models, audiobooks, a card game and more. Each of those enhance growth in the others. The majority who have passed on the kickstarter have largely done so for anti-kickstarter reasons and most people start games by word of mouth rather than being exposed to it. Provided our backers are pleased with what they get, organic growth (which the business plan is based around) is well seeded, and with several hundred backers we are well seeded across a diverse geographic area instead of being locked into the areas which we could manually promote. It will take time and quality, but there is strong will from a large number of our backers for Maelstrom's Edge to thrive based on what they've seen so far, without even getting the game in hand - exactly what we were hoping for.

I hope you are right about why people are not backing. From what I have heard here and elsewhere, that is not the conclusion I have drawn, but you have access to more information that I do so I will defer to you.

I feel the holistic approach you are taking to the game/hobby is the real strength of ME, so I agree that word of mouth should be good, and there are more gateways for nongamers to ME than any other non-GW wargame. Hope it brings success.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Meanwhile, it's clear that hundreds of thousands of dollars have been invested in the plastic tooling, the art, the game components, the fiction and the rules writing. If Medge is slow to earn that back, it will deter future expansion, which will give the game the stagnant feeling that can keep new players away. SAS already stated that the level of KS success will determine future retail pricing, box contents, and other stuff, which means we're looking at a more conservative retail release with likely less-attractive per-unit prices.

You worry too much here, the $20K funding point is all we needed to get us to launch, everything else gets pumped into future development and we have a deal in place for matching funds from investors which will allow us to continue pushing forwards without issue. While the kickstarter volume affects the price point via order volumes, it is a relatively small margin which can be buffered by a whole bunch of things, and price point is everything, so we'll be staying at or under the impulse purchase level for sure.

That is quite relieving to hear.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

I suspect a good global campaign could draw in interest even from people who would prefer more elegant systems. I'll be blunt: this campaign feels like an attempt to capture that old 40k feeling from back when everyone loved 40k. Why was 40k so popular? Widespread participation (for many reasons). Why not have an Eye of Terror campaign that everyone can participate in? Give an invite to everyone who pledged for rules in one form or another, have some 'combat simulation' beta playtesting, and then begin the actual campaign so that the playtesters are rewarded with a chance to take part in something that will affect the greater Medge universe. If the results matter (even if they only affect one faction or one novel's story arc or one permanent character's bio), I bet it would bring a lot of enthusiasm to the rules and the fluff conjointly. I would like to see the rules, fluff and art for the other factions debuted for the campaign, even if it means those players have to proxy for those factions.

Global campaigns are an idea we've thrown around a lot, and we'll likely end up doing one or more given our initially distributed player base.

Will these be done with the involvement of FLGSs and clubs?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

If everyone gets a terrain sprue in the package, why not have a contest? Make some base rules, such as a time limit of a week and a budget of $20, and see who can make the best terrain out of flower pots, fast food boxes, biscotti bins, CD spindles, etc. The winning terrain entries get to be used for the big action set pieces for a future novel or short story that will set the mood for another campaign... A Hobby for everyone.

Contests and similar model related promotional events are also planned for the future, but good suggestions, thanks

You're welcome.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Medge has followed a very strict plan during the campaign. Unfortunately, it was missing the kind of pizzazz that makes for an event Kickstarter and the kind of selling that makes for a must-buy kickstarter. Mantic and CMON both have their own KS formulas, and I have no doubt that either of them could have taken the current Medge product, chaps and all, and made half a million with it. I've already posted some of my thoughts, and I've seen Buzzsaw comment on this, too. I would love to hear from the many people who are smarter and more experienced than I am. I would love to see Medge have a slick retail release that gets everyone's attention.

I'm sure they could have, and I'm sure that it would have been easy to break well into 6 figures if we'd had all the options, bells and whistles, but they would be much more harmful to the long term development and growth of Maelstrom's Edge. A really good one to look at is Home Raiders which is a solid game, and their KS plan has been pretty much bang on what you'd expect with community development, heavy advertising on many sites, add-on packages constantly being revealed, etc. The concept is good and original, the models decent but with them as for other new model companies, the kickstarter conversion rate is dramatically lower than it was even 6 months ago as delay after delay and crap release after crap release have put people off.

Or people simply don't have much money left after investing in other kickstarters.

We've certainly run a campaign that has not been overtly emotional, and we've not been throwing things in based on community response because everything is precisely costed out with plans that change based on backer numbers and the the cash flowing in. We are presenting stability, reliability (in the form of a real update every day, providing new content every single day), and we strongly believe that is the best way forwards for the long term, for solid retail relationships and for the smallest potential range of issues. You cant discount the kickstarter pedigree and huge existing KS audiences that CMON, mantic and others have and all the bonuses that come with it. There's no shortage of retailers who do not like backing those companies because they sell most of their stock to KS backers though. You can also count the very large number of sci-fi wargames which have failed over the years both on and off kickstarter, and compared to them, we are going strong and have a very strong background, model range (12 distinct plastic designs at launch), and supplementary range (terrain, card game, etc).

Without a lot of those numbers you have, I have to rely on the numbers and data I see. What I see does not make it look like you are going strong compared to them. That is why I was worried and urged you for action.

To answer the few people who have questioned why there has been no community model development, it is very straightforward:
1. Managing such development fails every time - there are always people who dislike things, and given the option to influence plastic sci-fi model design (a dream for so many of us on here), the aggressive vocalisation of opinions would demolish productivity and destroy morale. There are plenty who have been very vocal about their dislike of the contractors for instance, but they are already the 4th most popular sprue in the boxed set by voting demand

I suspect that is partly because people want to have more minis they can proxy in other games and partly because people love fething with internet polls. Just ask Shieldwolf.

Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?


(For the record, I'll use and love my Epirians just like I use my Basilean Men-at-arms. They have great torsos and weapons; if their arms or heads don't work in real life (and they might, which would be gravy), I have more than enough spare bits to promote them all from Epirian Contractors to Epirian Full Time Employees. But I also see and understand why someone who wouldn't waste his time with Basileans won't want any Epirians.)

. Everyone would want to create 'their' game and 'their' models and in such cases the loudest voices generally win by attrition. Community development would not be able to agree on model proportions let alone anything else.

Dreamforge has found a way to take feedback without surrendering the entire process. When preparing the female tank hunters, Mark gave people options and asked them to discuss it and vote on it. He has also taken some feedback on other minis.

Keep in mind that most backers are psychologically primed to see campaigns as products in the works rather than fait accompli. It is natural to warn a developper about mistakes in his products before it is too late, which is why KSs are so full of mini nitpicking and wishlisting. People also want to make sure your upcoming products will be at least as good, if not better, than your current products, which requires feedback.
Taking the crowd involvement out of a crowdfunding venture seems to have affecting the funding aspect as well.


We can all agree that the Hansa Nairoba technique is not satisfying for anyone, but on the other hand it would have been nice to know that people found the Epirians "all Morleyed up" before paying for final tooling, right?

2. There are many technical limitations when designing a model, including sprue space, mould draw angles and ease of ejection, target part count, width of parts, strength of parts, clutch of parts, number of models on each sprue, ease of assembly, posing flexibility, cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models), fit to the rules, fit to the fiction, fit to the artwork, price of the sculpt, price of the mould, revision count of the sculpt, sculptor talent, target price of the model, weight of the sprue, potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future), potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future), and many more things. A huge amount of those would be toxic to vocalise as well without having to make the entire business plan open to all eyes.

Not necessarily what I meant. It could be as simple as showing a nonfinal print or render just in case it, say, didn't have upper arms or had some other crucial flaw.

3. It takes around two years to create a plastic model, so designs that are passed around would be long forgotten and everyone would have moved on to the new hotness by the time something actually came out.

This is a good point. Definitely don't show us everything years in advance. But on the other hand, show some people you trust who didn't start gaming with GW in the 90's.

Besides, the design art for the Epirians is brilliant and slick. The minis have problems that almost everyone recognizes, even if they seem beloved to some. Even Old Nagash had his fans.

4. The appearance of models in real life is usually extremely different to how they are presented online. Short of 3D printing every sculpt and sending it round to everyone, there is no way for people to get a real feel for a model based on screen images alone. We go through dozens of prints for every model and every part internally as it is. People who give feedback based on images alone, generally create models which have notable production issues.
It would be insane to seek community feedback during the model development process as nobody would be happy!

This does not seem to be the case. There are many gaming companies out there who show early greens and renders online without earning the derision the Epirians have.

There is a middle ground between showing us nothing at all and giving us the keys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
As regards community involvement, several core members of Spiral Arm have written a number of detailed posts engaging with criticism of the rules, figures and fluff.

And we love them for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 EarloftheNorth wrote:
Well I'm one of those anti-KS and its true for me at least, I don't back KS......I back finished products.

This is a finished product. They just haven't shown us all the pieces yet.

 insaniak wrote:

This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.

I don't think that this is the problem. A few "malcontents" in the ME threads can't be blamed for the project being at $41k with only 6 days to go, which can't be what was envisioned by the creators. There are clearly some reasons why this project hasn't set the world on fire.

Clearly there are people like Bob and Doug posting here who quite obviously care a lot about this project are trying to figure out what they are with the best of intentions. Cincy has simply posted some matter-of-fact points about ME vs DV. I'm sure I've missed others. But even if the people posting in this manner were writing the most vile just under the radar of bannage kind of things about this project and actively trying to convince others not to buy in (which they obviously are not - and I wouldn't say that anyone here is doing that) it still doesn't account for the current state of the campaign with its 498 backers worldwide, which obviously would include the entire moderation team here with "proper" pledges as well as 48 people with $1 pledges and 39 others with "just the rules" $10 pledges.

Nope, there's a problem. And it's clearly far bigger than half a dozen posters in one thread on Dakka.

The problem? KS fatigue and probably the imenent release of the next zombiecide KS is drawing many people away from a relatively unknown group on their first outing.

I have followed this project with great interest from the start, but at no point have been interested enough to want to back the Kickstarter.

The main issue for me? The miniatures. I just do not like the designs or executions. The miniatures may well be plastic and on well designed sprues but to me they just look old fashioned and about 15 years out of date. At a time when competing with the likes of Wyrd, Dreamforge Games and GW these miniatures just do not measure up, again YMMV. That may well change given time, but for now SAS are a long way away from getting my hobby £.

KS Fatigue in general, I can see. Zombicide specifically... not so much. A lot of us like Zombicide, and it's done well as a "crossover" product between "proper" miniatures gamers and "boardgamers", but the end dates of the two are going to be almost a month apart. (3 weeks, at least).

I think the main issues are with the miniatures. It's been discussed more than once in the thread here - I've bought plenty of figures that I didn't "need to see in the flesh to properly appreciate". Because they look great in photos as well as in-hand. I have to agree with DT here in that "hy guys, stop doubting" doesn't come across well. The second big thing there is that without going the whole hog into "quantity has a quality all it's own", there aren't enough contractors or of either type of Karist to make a full squad of 10 to use in other games if you don't end up spending most of your time playing ME, or if the game doesn't work out for you.

Not having enough figures to make a (let's not beat around the bush) 40k squad of IG or Inquisition Troopers or whatever means the ME box loses a lot in terms of "safety". The "back-up plan" for figures that a lot of us Mini gamers have in the back of our minds for new purchases just isn't there. "At least if I never play this game I get two/three squads I can use in 40k".

The third, less important but-related issue is the stated "we are not proxy-friendly" comments by the ME team. Why do I personally play KoW? Because I can easily use my old WHFB figures. Why has KoW started to gain traction? Good rules, plus the proxy-friendly nature. Do I mostly use Mantic figures? Of course not! But I have bought several large armies worth of their models, including at retail. Would that have become a thing without them being proxy-friendly? No way.

 Azazelx wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

This, to be honest, is where a lot of the perceived problem is coming from. There's this small group of people who dislike aspects of the project who seem to take any disagreement with their opinion as censure, dismissal, or the work of paid shills, rather than as simply the presentation of a differing opinion.

I don't think that this is the problem. A few "malcontents" in the ME threads can't be blamed for the project being at $41k with only 6 days to go, which can't be what was envisioned by the creators. There are clearly some reasons why this project hasn't set the world on fire..

That wasn't the 'problem' I was referring to. That comment was in reference to the alleged 'dismissive' attitude from SAS.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?

I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.

Keep in mind that most backers are psychologically primed to see campaigns as products in the works rather than fait accompli.

I don't think that's entirely true. I've seen any number of miniatures-related projects on Kickstarter that have had finished miniatures just waiting to be cast, that have managed to go through the process without complaints from backers about being 'left out' of the design process. For some reason, some people have just taken it amiss in this particular case...

 insaniak wrote:

That wasn't the 'problem' I was referring to. That comment was in reference to the alleged 'dismissive' attitude from SAS.

Fair enough.

I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/09/counterintuitive-world
Might I suggest that the people not backing because they view the contractors as bad models are the areas on the plane where there are no bullet holes. They are absent from the campaign, so they are obviously not wanting to buy more contractors - nor are they voting in polls on the KS page to encourage the addition of more contactors. The 400-ish people who have backed (not counting, say a conservative 10-20 slots for mods and SAS staff/family/friends - or the $1/$10 pledges) are your "bullet holes". But there are only 400 or so of them. They're a self-selecting group who like what has been presented to them and want more of that.

Obviously we can't exactly quantify the number of people who might have backed if they liked the contractors (or flying fish), but I'd suggest that the amount of criticism those models have drawn (as opposed to, say, the Karists) shouldn't simply be disregarded because a poll that says the people who already think they are ok-to-good want more of them. Because 400 people is a tiny number of backers, given the work, effort and investment that has clearly gone into this project. Even moreso given the goodwill that Dakka should generate, and the banner ads and people here's stated buying habits.


edit - fixed quote tags - and typos.

 Azazelx wrote:
Not having enough figures to make a (let's not beat around the bush) 40k squad of IG or Inquisition Troopers or whatever means the ME box loses a lot in terms of "safety". The "back-up plan" for figures that a lot of us Mini gamers have in the back of our minds for new purchases just isn't there. "At least if I never play this game I get two/three squads I can use in 40k".

The third, less important but-related issue is the stated "we are not proxy-friendly" comments by the ME team. Why do I personally play KoW? Because I can easily use my old WHFB figures. Why has KoW started to gain traction? Good rules, plus the proxy-friendly nature. Do I mostly use Mantic figures? Of course not! But I have bought several large armies worth of their models, including at retail. Would that have become a thing without them being proxy-friendly? No way.

While there aren't enough figures in a single box to use for a ten-man squad, that will certainly be a non-issue once we get to retail. I know that doesn't help us for this particular Kickstarter, but as we've several times: we're okay with that. We have made quite a few choices that make our overall KS total not be nearly as high as many other miniature game Kickstarters, but will put us in a much better position than most of those companies post-KS.

For example, our backer average is right around $90, mainly because we do not have add-ons currently (because doing so creates a logistical nightmare that has seriously damaged many smaller companies that have allowed it). If we did allow add-ons and got our backer average up anywhere near what other comparable miniature KSers have done (around $250 is fairly usual for miniature KSers with add-ons), then our total with 500 backers would be $125,000. While that total is certainly not earth-shattering, it definitely gives a different perspective on how our KS campaign is actually going.


And as for MEdge being not proxy-friendly, I'm assuming you're remembering our response when people asked if we're including rules allowing people to create their own units (which we did say we wouldn't be doing)?

Because we certainly can't (and wouldn't want to) stop people from using proxy models to play MEdge if they are so inclined. If/when there are MEdge tournaments actually run by us? In that case we'd probably have to implement some limitations just to keep things fair and balanced, but there is definitely no intent on our part to make people feel like they have to use only our miniatures to play our game. If you like our setting and our rules, then by all means, use whatever you'd like to play the game!

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Let me ask you straight-up, completely honestly: do you really not see the quality difference between the contractor sculpts and all the other sculpts? Are you really not sure why those minis are drawing so much criticism?

I suspect that, given that they've been fairly active in the threads, SAS are quite aware of why those minis are drawing criticism. But that criticism has been far from universal, and the contractors are in equal 3rd place with the scarecrow in the 'extra sprue' poll on the Kickstarter.

Exactly.

Although Bob has been quite vocal in his dislike of the Epirians, I personally love them and they're some of my favourite models from the box; and I seem to recall Bob saying that he loved the Angel when that was revealed, whereas I was the opposite and it's only the recent conversions that have made me like it.

My point is not just that Bob and myself seem to be exact opposites, but that although I have some criticisms for all of the sculpts (nothing can be perfect after all) I don't see any real difference in quality between the Epirians and the other models in the box. I can see different aesthetic choices, which it seems are not to everyone's taste- the contractors do seem to be a bit of a marmite model; but no drop in the quality of the sculpts.

 Azazelx wrote:
They're a self-selecting group who like what has been presented to them and want more of that.

Yes, that was my point.

While some people here don't like those models and think they are flawed, others like them just fine... enough to want more of them in the box.


And that point was a response to the idea that opening the design process to the public would have resulted in a different design direction... That would only be a given of everyone agreed that the current designs are bad. And clearly, they don't.

 insaniak wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
They're a self-selecting group who like what has been presented to them and want more of that.

Yes, that was my point.

While some people here don't like those models and think they are flawed, others like them just fine... enough to want more of them in the box.


And that point was a response to the idea that opening the design process to the public would have resulted in a different design direction... That would only be a given of everyone agreed that the current designs are bad. And clearly, they don't.

While there are some portion of the 300 backers who obviously like them enough to want more of them, there might be 1000 potential backers who don't. The poll really is no way to judge.

I wasn't making a point about how many people like them... Just about the fact that opinion on any given model will vary, regardless of what any given individual thinks of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:


There is also the underlying fear that a poster will accidentally offend someone of prestige on the site, whether they are afraid of retaliation or just don't want to hurt someone's feelings, which stifles more comments than any active moderation ever could.
.

That's a really interesting comment. Hadn't considered it before, but it's pretty interesting.

This one's been niggling at me, so I figured it was worth addressing.... Ultimately, a desire to not cause offense should temper a poster's response to any project, not just this one.

So long as feedback is politely delivered, that will rarely be a problem.

Those saying KS fatigure is the real reason, well, not here. And not from what I've seen in the scant discussions outside of Dakka. I don't feel like I have KS fatigue, but I am picky about choosing what I invest in, generally always have.

Now, the real reason I've not backed and, you'll have to excuse me, but I'm going to be very blunt but will try to be constructive. I find the miniatures and the background to be mediocre. I look at them and feel no inspiration. I read snippets of the background and it just doesn't grab me or draw me in. When it was announced I did a quick scan of the visuals and then I looked into the Karist faction. They initially sounded interesting and appealing. Reading into it, they sound like religious fanatics and zealots. Convert or else. Sort of like a sci-fi spanish inquisition with a whole nihilistic bent to them. But then I saw the models. They didn't look very religious. They looked like I've seen them before. A bunch of fella's in some sci-fi armour with broken wrists. There's nothing there to identify them as cultist or zealots. No sign of idols or the slightest look of madness. After that, I just thought, nah, not interested and that was even after I saw them in the flesh on the Salute stand (never understood why you kept the robots and angel hidden on the Salute stand). Though I have to say, the large Robot is the business. Nice design and look. The contractors, not so much. There's plenty of these style of miniatures out there with Sedition Wars, Elysians, Mantic Corporation Troops, Infinity. However, the contractors just don't have a unique look or style. They'd slot into any of those other games without anyone really noticing. You try doing that with a Space Marine - it'll be recognised instantly.

Now, as mentioned by other posters and although I'm not a massive contributor, when I had a thought or just wanted to chip in occasionally, I didn't feel comfortable posting in MEdge threads. Still feel nervous now. Call it perception, but it just felt, well, unwelcoming. My perception of things were that discussion was controlled and sanitised to an unhealthy extent. There was no real organic conversation and, I must say, the locked forum was an odd decision and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved. Look at any other typical Kickstarter or the average news and rumour thread. They're usually full of lively debate, heated discussions, in-jokes and other bits of entertainment - Banter. The MEdge thread didn't have much, if any, of that. So what I did was go looking outside of dakkadakka to have a discussion or at least read up on what other people are saying, look at their opinions. And there really wasn't anything. There was a handful of so-so responses on [TMP] and Beasts of War and a generally short but negative thread on Warseer, but nothing else anywhere. Nothing on CMON, PlanetFigure, WAMP, BoLS or other places I went to. No talk, no knowledge, no visibility.

And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).

 zedmeister wrote:
... and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved..

The existence of this thread we're in right now suggests otherwise...


I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?

 insaniak wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
... and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved..

The existence of this thread we're in right now suggests otherwise...


I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?

A feeling, rightly or wrongly.

In other threads, sometimes a joke crops up or some Off Topic debate happens, nothing nasty and if it goes on a little too long, the Mods usually chime in with a "Very funny lads, now back to topic". With MEdge, the Mod responses felt subtly different. Sort of along the lines of "Stop it now" and "No No, not to be discussed here". And that was that...

 Spiral Arm Studios wrote:

While there aren't enough figures in a single box to use for a ten-man squad, that will certainly be a non-issue once we get to retail. I know that doesn't help us for this particular Kickstarter, but as we've several times: we're okay with that. We have made quite a few choices that make our overall KS total not be nearly as high as many other miniature game Kickstarters, but will put us in a much better position than most of those companies post-KS.

I think it's unfortunately going to be the gift that keeps on giving in terms of hurting your game at retail and detracting new players from picking it up. Once you hit retail, you might sell units of 10 Karists, etc seperately - but assuming that the Battle for Zycanthus starter box is going to be your flagship retail product - it's still going to be around the $90-100 price point, and it's still not going to have enough guys for a "back-up plan" squad of 10 Guardsmen.

That's the important distinction I was making. I'm not suggesting Mantic-style dozens of figures that later serve to devalue your products - simply that if the human troops were supplied with enough to make (at least) squads of 10 (5 for the heavy Karists?) rather than 4/6 then people on KS or at retail have that backup plan in case playing ME doesn't pan out for them. That's not Mantic or CMoN-style shenanigans. It's literally just a couple of extra models.

For example, our backer average is right around $90, mainly because we do not have add-ons currently (because doing so creates a logistical nightmare that has seriously damaged many smaller companies that have allowed it). If we did allow add-ons and got our backer average up anywhere near what other comparable miniature KSers have done (around $250 is fairly usual for miniature KSers with add-ons), then our total with 500 backers would be $125,000. While that total is certainly not earth-shattering, it definitely gives a different perspective on how our KS campaign is actually going.

I'm not sure that "backer average" means much when almost 1/4 of your backers are at $1 or $10. Twisting the numbers with a bunch of "best case" and "typical campaigns" "if we just"s so that you can read it as the equivalent of $125k is just being silly or lying to yourself. Intelligent people who have a vested interest in presenting a certain perspective can twist numbers in many creative ways. Translating 50 backers at $1 and 50 at $10 to "a $250 value each - so $25,000 worth of backers" (if only you had add-ons) is silly at best and self-delusional at worst. It's a different perspective because it's a completely fictional one. It's fantasy. Please don't do this.

It's $40k. It is what it is. 1/5 of your backers are invested at a level where they don't really count as anything significant towards the total. That's where a lot of the "Dakka Goodwill" has ended up. That's not a great thing. I'd see it as a problem.


I understand that you're in a difficult position here. If you openly admit that there are big problems, you risk losing some of the $40k that is already there and having a backslide. I don't think the "Everything is Awesome" stuff with the $125k "valuation" helps either, though. It makes you look disconnected from the actual situation.

I think your best solution for both now and later is to be proactive with the product. Redo your numbers and bump the number of models so that each group of humans can make at least 10. If it's 12, then that might be what you have to do. You might get away with 5 for the heavy Karists, but if they're in sprues of 4, I'd also say go for 12 so you get a safe 10. That's three squads of models for 40k. People then have their "insurance" for your $90-100-ish boxed set. It's not Mantic-style "buckets of models" etc. Would it be enough to get a big bump or influx this late in the game? I can't say. It might already be too late to make $125k more than a theoretical. But it's not my game or investment.

And as for MEdge being not proxy-friendly, I'm assuming you're remembering our response when people asked if we're including rules allowing people to create their own units (which we did say we wouldn't be doing)?

I can't recall the exact wording of the statement. It was several weeks ago now, and in the other thread. Might well have been the one you're referencing.

Because we certainly can't (and wouldn't want to) stop people from using proxy models to play MEdge if they are so inclined. If/when there are MEdge tournaments actually run by us? In that case we'd probably have to implement some limitations just to keep things fair and balanced, but there is definitely no intent on our part to make people feel like they have to use only our miniatures to play our game. If you like our setting and our rules, then by all means, use whatever you'd like to play the game!

Obviously this is true, even Insaniak's secret police can't stop me from playing with the figures I want to in my own house, but giving people more easily accessed options to use their existing models makes it much easier to start up and get invested in a new game. Whether that's Mantic's style of "creating" "orx" or giving players the tools to create their own rules for their Tyranid swarm (look what came out of the Maelstrom in a game at my house!) Either option is a good thing in many ways as it makes it easier for new players to engage with your rules and game. Easier to dip your toe in. Easier to create your own investment in the game.


I wish you guys all the best, whatever you choose. You can expect a small pledge from me, but it's essentially a goodwill donation to Dakka because the KS package as it stands does not appeal on several levels, and I really wish it wasn't this way (else I wouldn't bother typing all of this).



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 zedmeister wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

I'm curious as to what you mean by 'sanitised' though... other than a few coments to stop the thread veering away from discussion of the kickstarter, what were you seeing in the kickstarter thread that gave you that perception?

A feeling, rightly or wrongly.

In other threads, sometimes a joke crops up or some Off Topic debate happens, nothing nasty and if it goes on a little too long, the Mods usually chime in with a "Very funny lads, now back to topic". With MEdge, the Mod responses felt subtly different. Sort of along the lines of "Stop it now" and "No No, not to be discussed here". And that was that...

This puts it very well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

And that point was a response to the idea that opening the design process to the public would have resulted in a different design direction... That would only be a given of everyone agreed that the current designs are bad. And clearly, they don't.

Design by committee isn't a great thing, but showing some options and concept design upfront is a pretty normal thing. It's already been explained how Dreamforge has utilised this very well. You appear to choose to see the backer and pledge total numbers as Just Dandy. I see those numbers and think of "Holes in a fighter plane". This campaign should really be in the hundreds of thousands at this point. At least over $100k. The fact that it is not is a cause for concern, or should be at least, given the pedigree of the game and it's contributors as well as how far along the product components are.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zedmeister - just read your post and I think you've put it well. I agree with pretty much everything you've said.

And now I'm probably going to feth off back to the painting forums where it's safer.

 zedmeister wrote:
. And there really wasn't anything. There was a handful of so-so responses on [TMP] and Beasts of War and a generally short but negative thread on Warseer, but nothing else anywhere. Nothing on CMON, PlanetFigure, WAMP, BoLS or other places I went to. No talk, no knowledge, no visibility.

And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).

This is an interesting point, and slightly worrying that there not much activity on other forums, especcially on beat of war where they did a salute item on it, just checked Facebook there is no Mealstorm's edge page, there is a Spiral Arm Studios page but no posts? To succeed you have to create a craving for the product, make it viable in the wargaming media so that there is a buzz, SAS should be turning out promotional material in buckets, i mean interviews, concept art and plans on things to come. but i see not much.

People in that respect are like crows, if some company shows some shiny stuff they will keep their ears peaked, but if nothing much happens they go to greener pastures and you are left with the die hards.

 zedmeister wrote:

And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).

I think part of the confusion is that this particular project isn't starting where other projects do.

The ship date for this project is six months from now. From the project schedule:

Jun - Kickstarter ends, Beta rules go out to backers who requested them. Playtesting and final tweaks to ruleset, final plastics are completed and production ready.
Jul - Rules go to design stage, Plastics produced in volume and shipped to us.

with the boxes scheduled to start shipping out in November.

Most of the wargame projects that I've seen are posting renders of the models because they haven't started model tooling yet, so if a model concept goes over badly they can scrap the concept and try something else. So criticism of one of the models can be met with "Okay, okay. Everyone hates that, so how about this instead?" Because those projects post concept art or 3D renders, list a project date a year from now, so that in order to meet their one year date they'll have to resort to shipping by waves or be six months to a year late depending on stretch goals.

Maelstrom's Edge is at the "Here are the plastic models for the game we're making" stage. Even if everyone on the forum hates one of the miniatures, that model's already been paid for and is going to be in the box. So any criticism of the models is going to met with "That's for your input, we'll consider it for future models but we've already paid for that one."

In other words, the project isn't paying for development of the plastic models, it's paying for the print run for the boxed set. That means that even a teeny, tiny project finish is probably just fine.

Otherwise, it sounds like a lot of your feedback is about a year late, unless you're planning on handing over the keys to a time machine.

 insaniak wrote:
I wasn't making a point about how many people like them... Just about the fact that opinion on any given model will vary, regardless of what any given individual thinks of it.

With due respect, that point is somewhat irrelevant, certainly as a response to the argument that Az, Bob and co are making: this is ultimately not an academic exercise, it's not getting graded on some objective measure of 'quality', as others have alluded to above.

It's a commercial matter, and as such the only thing that matters is 'do the dogs like the dog food?'

I've been much quieter in this thread then I would be otherwise (my post mortem will be more... lively), because of 2 basic reasons:

First, I genuinely don't like a lot of the elements of the game, and simply saying "this sucks" isn't any kind of useful feedback for people that you want to succeed, even if only dispite themselves.

Second and most significantly... I don't know that the problems with this campaign are fixable. As noted above, the dog food is in the can, the product is... done. To the extent that problems were quickly identified, those problems don't seem to have any solutions in this campaign. Take the Karist heavy troopers: the ungainly problems were identified almost as soon as the models were shown, the complaint was noted and... what, exactly?

There are plenty of other things to note (and they will be in time), but that's an example of a simple, straightforward problem that has been known for the duration of the project and, as near as I know, gone nowhere.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

With due respect, that point is somewhat irrelevant, certainly as a response to the argument that Az, Bob and co are making: this is ultimately not an academic exercise, it's not getting graded on some objective measure of 'quality', as others have alluded to above.

It's very relevant to the point it was actually addressing, which was nothing to do with the inherent quality of the miniatures, and was simply about the issues with trying to design by community feedback. Specifically that doing so is problematic, due to the fact that everybody likes different stuff.

Take the Karist heavy troopers: the ungainly problems were identified almost as soon as the models were shown, the complaint was noted and... what, exactly?

It was pointed out that there were certain design limitations that resulted in that problem arising, that it doesn't look as bad from most angles but that the photo was specifically taken from the least flattering angle precisely to avoid any appearance of trying to hide the issue, and that it can be fairly easily fixed by just removing a small slice of plastic when you assemble the model.

That might not be a resolution that satisfies everyone, but IMO it's a better one than delaying the project completion date by a year or two for redesign and retooling over something that is ultimately is a fairly minor problem that will be largely unnoticed on the table.

 insaniak wrote:
and that it can be fairly easily fixed by just removing a small slice of plastic when you assemble the model.

That is poor design.

I mean, come on. That's two models from the relatively small line who have problems that require modification of the product to fix.....

Two? What was the other?


Edit - And really, it's only 'poor design' if you're unhappy with the model as is. I've built a handful of these, and I've tinkered with a couple to change the wrists to see how it looked... and for the most part I don't think it's worth the effort. Yes, the wrist is slightly awkward, anatomically. But so are a whole lot of model poses that people just take for granted.

 insaniak wrote:
Two? What was the other?

The response to the Angel's static pose has been, "well it's perfect for conversions" as well.

 cincydooley wrote:
The response to the Angel's static pose has been, "well it's perfect for conversions" as well.

So not something that needs to be fixed in order for the model to be functional, just a personal preference over posing.

Hell, my two favourite GW models of all time are both in very static poses...

 Buzzsaw wrote:

I've been much quieter in this thread then I would be otherwise (my post mortem will be more... lively), because of 2 basic reasons:

First, I genuinely don't like a lot of the elements of the game, and simply saying "this sucks" isn't any kind of useful feedback for people that you want to succeed, even if only dispite themselves.

Second and most significantly... I don't know that the problems with this campaign are fixable. As noted above, the dog food is in the can, the product is... done. To the extent that problems were quickly identified, those problems don't seem to have any solutions in this campaign. Take the Karist heavy troopers: the ungainly problems were identified almost as soon as the models were shown, the complaint was noted and... what, exactly?

Those are two very good reasons and you're not the only one who had both cross his mind as reasons to not comment as frequently or as bluntly as normal. Regardless of the good faith and/or well intentions behind the posting, it is literally impossible to give constructive criticism on the campaign as previewed simply because it is so far along and those changes simply can't be made without incurring significant cost that will apparently not be absorbed by the current pledge total of the KS. At best, it can help inform/sway future decisions but the stuff shown is too far down the pipeline but it can't by its very nature be constructive for the exact subject of the criticism.. and I'm sure that doesn't have a positive effect on how that criticism is received either.

 zedmeister wrote:
Those saying KS fatigure is the real reason, well, not here. And not from what I've seen in the scant discussions outside of Dakka. I don't feel like I have KS fatigue, but I am picky about choosing what I invest in, generally always have.

Now, the real reason I've not backed and, you'll have to excuse me, but I'm going to be very blunt but will try to be constructive. I find the miniatures and the background to be mediocre. I look at them and feel no inspiration. I read snippets of the background and it just doesn't grab me or draw me in. When it was announced I did a quick scan of the visuals and then I looked into the Karist faction. They initially sounded interesting and appealing. Reading into it, they sound like religious fanatics and zealots. Convert or else. Sort of like a sci-fi spanish inquisition with a whole nihilistic bent to them. But then I saw the models. They didn't look very religious. They looked like I've seen them before. A bunch of fella's in some sci-fi armour with broken wrists. There's nothing there to identify them as cultist or zealots. No sign of idols or the slightest look of madness. After that, I just thought, nah, not interested and that was even after I saw them in the flesh on the Salute stand (never understood why you kept the robots and angel hidden on the Salute stand). Though I have to say, the large Robot is the business. Nice design and look. The contractors, not so much. There's plenty of these style of miniatures out there with Sedition Wars, Elysians, Mantic Corporation Troops, Infinity. However, the contractors just don't have a unique look or style. They'd slot into any of those other games without anyone really noticing. You try doing that with a Space Marine - it'll be recognised instantly.

Now, as mentioned by other posters and although I'm not a massive contributor, when I had a thought or just wanted to chip in occasionally, I didn't feel comfortable posting in MEdge threads. Still feel nervous now. Call it perception, but it just felt, well, unwelcoming. My perception of things were that discussion was controlled and sanitised to an unhealthy extent. There was no real organic conversation and, I must say, the locked forum was an odd decision and perhaps attempts to post threads elsewhere would have been locked or moved. Look at any other typical Kickstarter or the average news and rumour thread. They're usually full of lively debate, heated discussions, in-jokes and other bits of entertainment - Banter. The MEdge thread didn't have much, if any, of that. So what I did was go looking outside of dakkadakka to have a discussion or at least read up on what other people are saying, look at their opinions. And there really wasn't anything. There was a handful of so-so responses on [TMP] and Beasts of War and a generally short but negative thread on Warseer, but nothing else anywhere. Nothing on CMON, PlanetFigure, WAMP, BoLS or other places I went to. No talk, no knowledge, no visibility.

And this leads to the big problem with the Kicsktarter in my view- there was no build up, no big attempt at hyping or getting people excited, just BANG, Kickstarter. A GW Style out of nowhere release. In fact, it was worse than GW. At least with GW we may get a couple of weeks notice through some rumours or shaky White Dwarf photos bouncing around that we can use as indicators to put aside cash. I also feel a massive opportunity was missed in asking the general Dakka unwashed on their opinions - concept art, ideas, background. I don't mean design by committee, but market research in the traditional sense. SAS are in an enviable position of having a vast audience of their core market on tap as well as being able to command the respect to be listened to and get responses from the said unwashed. But, I didn't see anything in the way of that done. A missed opportunity. As involvement could have potentially created a sense of shared inclusion. Something that would have benefited the campaign enormously and even built a large core of evangelists to take the word out there, Karist style (though, probably without the accompanying menaces).

I tried to discuss this earlier though, in a long-shot and albeit nervous way.

After pondering this for a while, if we were to compare this to a video game series, the best comparison for this tabletop game would be without a doubt, Destiny. It is whitewashed, lacking, and already done. Your terrain bits are great, and not capitalized on. I feel like what we say as a whole just sticks to the design board and then keeps sticking, without effect. I feel no attachment or excitement for this campaign, and I am in 114$. I honestly only want the terrain. I'm in at your 90$ sweet spot plus the additional money for the sprues.

The Contractors are so bland and vanilla, I don't even want a taste. I only want the scarecrows and the hunter mechs. The rest I have agreed to trade with Ritides. I've had three KS so far, so yes I am slightly burnt out but, I feel if this was a wasted chance. For instance, I have a plog on here to learn techniques to impress not only myself but my friends. I paint miniatures not to play but, to display. Sorta like model jets or cars. I'm not really that good at it, so I get miniatures that lend themselves to paint but, that's at risk of going off topic.

I guess to get back on topic, I must state my intentions. I got the Karists due to the xeno-loving, magic sniffing, zealous nature. They're not zealous at all though. They remind me of up-armored humans, and if you took a game like Halo, I would say that these are human versions of Elites. Minus all that makes the elites cool. I love them aesthetically but, at this point they bring to mind generic third party miniatures that you can use to proxy in 40k. The most anticipation I have gotten over this entire campaign was from two things, one of which I mentioned. The first being terrain, and the second thing was the update you sent on KS concerning the picture frame diorama.

Furthermore, I feel as if that really shouldn't be a selling point for me as a customer but for me it was that update, so by god they're going to end up in a giant swamp inside of a picture frame diorama. That's their fate, sadly. The templates, should they fit over the green 40k ones, will be glued to them. As a customer, I feel as if this money could have been better spent being forced into the Modcubes but, I am slightly excited for this campaign. In the "Oh boy, new minis," sort of way, not the "I'm super stoked for this product," way.

The rest traded, including the cards. I don't feel like I am even getting a big value, this is my way aside from being a DCM to support the forums and staff that I hold dear. I feel as if you guys should have done the concept art and teasers on this forum, and altered things based on consumer thoughts before producing. The stability of basically being done was a plus, and a reason I pledged but, I would have been more hyped if you guys had given people more input. I could write more, for instance I am really hyped over a man's fictional book on Deviantart as he puts his concept art that he digitally illustrates up on the web before making a new change to his upcoming series. Due to this, even though I know absolutely jack squat about his books, I have followed it for years eagerly, as his art shows me where he is going with the series as a whole. I guess I could say it builds up hype.

I hope you'll forgive me for writing this but, it's simply how I feel. <------ Yes, I'm aware how that statement can be picked apart as well. Feel free to light me up for this if you don't agree, I'll just go hide in the plogs again.

Edit: That isn't to say I don't support SAS. I have high hopes for the books should I ever get a physical copy. Furthermore, I've done all I really can by pledging that super-high amount of money. Honestly, a part of me wishes I hadn't, as I am in a financial bind now. (I wasn't when I originally pledged.) It's hard for me to type all this, as I really, really, want to support you guys.

That's all I can state for now.