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try harder?

gungo wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

More like his comments are
Point costs don't matter
Comparisons between other armies don't matter
Math and stats don't matter
How much stronger they are from last codex doesn't matter
battle reps and play tests being posted everywhere showing how broken they are doesn't matter
Your problem is you need to learn to play better.
You see if you read my blog you will see learn how if you take a drop pod of space marines and deep strike perfectly in range turn 1 and you get lucky wig blind tests and shooting you can totally kill that knight in this blanket subjective scenario.
It's not eldar that's broken it's everyone else!!!
I'm glad you guys see my point.

This quote perfectly sums up the attitude a lot of people appear to have towards my posts. However, what you are getting out of my posts is NOT what I am saying.

At the most basic level, all I am saying is that the Eldar codex is likely not as "OP" as you guys are making it out to be. Additionally, I am trying to point out that basing your position on mathhammer and scenarious that don't necessarily reflect real tournament play is faulty reasoning.

What would be more constructive is if you guys said "I play x army with this type of list and I see these kinds of results against X kind of Eldar units..."

However, simply saying "27 point Scatter Laser Bikes-game over!" Is not helpful.

No the problem is you believe you are the only one who is right.
The fact is there are dozens of battkereps and playtests reported that completely back up our math, comparisons and scenarios.
And your comparison are already we'll know. Everyone knows what units can hurt eldar. They never changed and your blog doesn't change that.
And no one is arguing with you on the exact level of overpoweredness. Which is a deflection of the issue that eldar ARE overpowered.
You are being dismissive and demeaning to everyone else's opinion.
Pretty much saying learn to play better
Followed up by you guys just don't get my point.
That 27 point scat bike doesn't mean it's broken by itself but in the context of the entire army, it's relative cost to other comparable units, it's abilities compared to every other troop choice, and a entire weeks worth of play tests supports the intitial reaction of that units. Two major tournament organizers and like 5 blogs not counting people's own playtests prove this unit is broken. Your subjective isolated examples of how to deal with them doesn't change that because people already know what can and can't hurt a bike.
The fact is eldar are the most powerful dex right now and they do have some overpowered unit choice.

It's becoming painfully obvious that Morte has a chip on his shoulder about playing an easy mode army. His marathon length posts just ramble in circles yet he thinks we don't see the short obvious message, "L2P guys!"

Here's a fun exercise, since he clearly knows more then everyone else and sees all these failure points in the new book, how about he posts a TAC lists from another 7th ED codex that he thinks is an even match up to the eldar. Go, ahead Morte, I request your version of a DE list that can go toe to toe, or how about Blood Angels....GK...maybe Orks...

My guess is you can't but will default to your useless defense that lists, point costs and math are all liars and we need to learn to play better.

Your in denial and I feel for you, I really do, but your favorite army really is easy mode.

Forgive if some links are posted but I was wondering if there are batreps links published by players who have playtested with the new book.

All the reviews are saying OP-broken see: numbers, play test, and reasons. Well...I've seen the numbers and reasons. Now I want to see (or read) the results of ACTUAL games.

Anyone hook me up, thanks?

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/04/29/the-eldar-250-challenge-is-on/

Thanks Gib, I've seen the challenge but the twitch feed is live stream and I'm too busy. Got any others?

 gigasnail wrote:
try harder?

.
Your posts are making less sense as the thread goes on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brillow80 wrote:Forgive if some links are posted but I was wondering if there are batreps links published by players who have playtested with the new book.

All the reviews are saying OP-broken see: numbers, play test, and reasons. Well...I've seen the numbers and reasons. Now I want to see (or read) the results of ACTUAL games.

Anyone hook me up, thanks?

Gibblets wrote:https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2015/04/29/the-eldar-250-challenge-is-on/

I am a huge fan of Frontline; and Reece and I are friends, that being said there is a bit of sky is falling syndrome at FLG.

They had a similar reaction to summoning and maelstrom missions. Neither of which caused the predicted demise of competitive 40k. Just like Eldar won't, and never have. Lest we all forget that the Eldar codex has always been a meta busting/shifting codex upon its release.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
try harder?

.
Your posts are making less sense as the thread goes on.

the point was that we know the CSM dex is ass, and it's hardly the only one. having another over-powered/horribly externally balanced codex doesn't really help the situation.

internally, the book seems wonderfully balanced. everything's good; it's a rarity.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Spoiler:

gungo wrote:

 mortetvie wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's us not eldar.

More like his comments are
Point costs don't matter
Comparisons between other armies don't matter
Math and stats don't matter
How much stronger they are from last codex doesn't matter
battle reps and play tests being posted everywhere showing how broken they are doesn't matter
Your problem is you need to learn to play better.
You see if you read my blog you will see learn how if you take a drop pod of space marines and deep strike perfectly in range turn 1 and you get lucky wig blind tests and shooting you can totally kill that knight in this blanket subjective scenario.
It's not eldar that's broken it's everyone else!!!
I'm glad you guys see my point.

This quote perfectly sums up the attitude a lot of people appear to have towards my posts. However, what you are getting out of my posts is NOT what I am saying.

At the most basic level, all I am saying is that the Eldar codex is likely not as "OP" as you guys are making it out to be. Additionally, I am trying to point out that basing your position on mathhammer and scenarious that don't necessarily reflect real tournament play is faulty reasoning.

What would be more constructive is if you guys said "I play x army with this type of list and I see these kinds of results against X kind of Eldar units..."

However, simply saying "27 point Scatter Laser Bikes-game over!" Is not helpful.

No the problem is you believe you are the only one who is right.
The fact is there are dozens of battkereps and playtests reported that completely back up our math, comparisons and scenarios.
And your comparison are already we'll know. Everyone knows what units can hurt eldar. They never changed and your blog doesn't change that.
And no one is arguing with you on the exact level of overpoweredness. Which is a deflection of the issue that eldar ARE overpowered.
You are being dismissive and demeaning to everyone else's opinion.
Pretty much saying learn to play better
Followed up by you guys just don't get my point.
That 27 point scat bike doesn't mean it's broken by itself but in the context of the entire army, it's relative cost to other comparable units, it's abilities compared to every other troop choice, and a entire weeks worth of play tests supports the intitial reaction of that units. Two major tournament organizers and like 5 blogs not counting people's own playtests prove this unit is broken. Your subjective isolated examples of how to deal with them doesn't change that because people already know what can and can't hurt a bike.
The fact is eldar are the most powerful dex right now and they do have some overpowered unit choice.

It's becoming painfully obvious that Morte has a chip on his shoulder about playing an easy mode army. His marathon length posts just ramble in circles yet he thinks we don't see the short obvious message, "L2P guys!"

Here's a fun exercise, since he clearly knows more then everyone else and sees all these failure points in the new book, how about he posts a TAC lists from another 7th ED codex that he thinks is an even match up to the eldar. Go, ahead Morte, I request your version of a DE list that can go toe to toe, or how about Blood Angels....GK...maybe Orks...

My guess is you can't but will default to your useless defense that lists, point costs and math are all liars and we need to learn to play better.

Your in denial and I feel for you, I really do, but your favorite army really is easy mode.

First of all, my screen name is mortetvie, or mort for short-I suppose. It is three words in French, mort=death, et=and, vie=life. So saying morte is technically incorrect but that is neither here nor there...

Second of all, and this is not directed at you alone Red Corsair as many others are guilty of this, it is sad how several people throughout this thread choose to make personal attacks or attack points I never said/made as if I had made them. Both are logical fallacies, poor ways to argue and generally poor form.

What is actually painfully obvious is when I say "math-hammer and your opinion of how strong things are versus how many points they cost is not the be-all, end-all for determining whether a codex or unit is OP" you guys apparently hear "l2p nubs, mathhammer and unit comparisons don't matter." Indeed, it is one thing to say that X is not the ultimate factor in determining something-which is what I've been saying-and quite another to say X is not a factor to consider at all and we can disregard it-which is what you guys have been saying that I've been saying and consequently misquoting/misrepresenting me and my points.

So saying that I have a chip on my shoulder about playing an easy mode army is baseless and a pointless personal attack that does nothing to further this discussion. Indeed, I've played Eldar when they were both good and bad and I actually have played and still play a myriad of other armies through times they were considered good and bad so what is this deal about me playing in EZ mode?

If anything, it appears like people like you have a chip on their shoulder regarding their armies not being as strong as Eldar. It seems like anyone on this thread that has been most vocal about Eldar being OP and unfair and game breaking are people that play armies that generally don't have a very powerful codex to begin with. Therefore, asking me to make a good Dark Eldar list that can handle Eldar is like asking me to pick someone from the special Olympics to compete against an actual Olympic athlete. Inherently stronger armies will always have an advantage against inherently weaker ones and so one thing I have been trying to point out is that it is not automatically correct to assume Eldar are OP when you are comparing Eldar to other armies that already had inherently badly written rules. And BTW, Eldar have generally always been a hard counter to Dark Eldar, sad but true.

So ultimately, the problem likely isn't that Eldar are too strong-the problem is likely that some of the older armies are too weak. Indeed, one of my main points was that the top armies and lists that are prevalent in tournaments will all do fine against Eldar and have plenty of answers against them. So for you, or anyone else, to come on here and go "yeah, well, X under powered codex can't compete with Eldar" is missing the point and misstating the issue-especially of this thread.

Even if they took Eldar out of the game entirely, the current incarnation of a lot of armies can't compete in a tournament setting which just further demonstrates the problem is not Eldar but those respective armies. Therefore, stop blaming Eldar for your army being bad =/.

Finally, and to reiterate, I never said nor maintained that statistics and other useful sources of data are wrong/liars-only that they are limited in what they can tells us about something and that we still need to do some robust testing of the codex to make a better determination on (1) if it truly is OP; and, (2) what should/could be done about Eldar in a tournament setting.

You're trolling IMO.

 mortetvie wrote:




First of all, my screen name is mortetvie, or mort for short-I suppose. It is three words in French, mort=death, et=and, vie=life. So saying morte is technically incorrect but that is neither here nor there...

Second of all, and this is not directed at you alone Red Corsair as many others are guilty of this, it is sad how several people throughout this thread choose to make personal attacks or attack points I never said/made as if I had made them. Both are logical fallacies, poor ways to argue and generally poor form.

What is actually painfully obvious is when I say "math-hammer and your opinion of how strong things are versus how many points they cost is not the be-all, end-all for determining whether a codex or unit is OP" you guys apparently hear "l2p nubs, mathhammer and unit comparisons don't matter." Indeed, it is one thing to say that X is not the ultimate factor in determining something-which is what I've been saying-and quite another to say X is not a factor to consider at all and we can disregard it-which is what you guys have been saying that I've been saying and consequently misquoting/misrepresenting me and my points.

So saying that I have a chip on my shoulder about playing an easy mode army is baseless and a pointless personal attack that does nothing to further this discussion. Indeed, I've played Eldar when they were both good and bad and I actually have played and still play a myriad of other armies through times they were considered good and bad so what is this deal about me playing in EZ mode?

If anything, it appears like people like you have a chip on their shoulder regarding their armies not being as strong as Eldar. It seems like anyone on this thread that has been most vocal about Eldar being OP and unfair and game breaking are people that play armies that generally don't have a very powerful codex to begin with. Therefore, asking me to make a good Dark Eldar list that can handle Eldar is like asking me to pick someone from the special Olympics to compete against an actual Olympic athlete. Inherently stronger armies will always have an advantage against inherently weaker ones and so one thing I have been trying to point out is that it is not automatically correct to assume Eldar are OP when you are comparing Eldar to other armies that already had inherently badly written rules. And BTW, Eldar have generally always been a hard counter to Dark Eldar, sad but true.

So ultimately, the problem likely isn't that Eldar are too strong-the problem is likely that some of the older armies are too weak. Indeed, one of my main points was that the top armies and lists that are prevalent in tournaments will all do fine against Eldar and have plenty of answers against them. So for you, or anyone else, to come on here and go "yeah, well, X under powered codex can't compete with Eldar" is missing the point and misstating the issue-especially of this thread.

Even if they took Eldar out of the game entirely, the current incarnation of a lot of armies can't compete in a tournament setting which just further demonstrates the problem is not Eldar but those respective armies. Therefore, stop blaming Eldar for your army being bad =/.

Finally, and to reiterate, I never said nor maintained that statistics and other useful sources of data are wrong/liars-only that they are limited in what they can tells us about something and that we still need to do some robust testing of the codex to make a better determination on (1) if it truly is OP; and, (2) what should/could be done about Eldar in a tournament setting.

Morty, you're saying "Eldar aren't OP, everyone else is just too weak!" That's literally the same thing as saying they're OP, just using different terminology.
You've agreed above that Eldar are the strongest and that other armies are weaker, thus putting everyone else at a disadvantage.
You honestly can't see how that might upset people?

 Brillow80 wrote:
Forgive if some links are posted but I was wondering if there are batreps links published by players who have playtested with the new book.

All the reviews are saying OP-broken see: numbers, play test, and reasons. Well...I've seen the numbers and reasons. Now I want to see (or read) the results of ACTUAL games.

Anyone hook me up, thanks?

how about the frontline gaming games where reece played and challenged anyone to beat him with his new eldar for 250 bucks. He played less than optimal lists and beat tournament quality lists in other armies, without knowing all the rules, dozens of f ups, and sub par choices. He finally lost from just plain not knowing how to play them against someone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brillow80 wrote:
Thanks Gib, I've seen the challenge but the twitch feed is live stream and I'm too busy. Got any others?

The man gave you exactly what you asked for, but instead you requested some other source.

Here's my first game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMnRAMUKItI

Here are the rules for a local upcoming RTT (not run by me):

All standard rules apply for building armies, save the following.
-Bound armies.
-No ranged D Weapons. Melee D weapons are okay.
-No stomping units outside of Close Combat.
-Forge World is a go.
-Lords of war are limited only by the rules above, meaning if it has D weapons that it cant switch out, you can not take it and if it has a stomp it will be limited to only stomping units it is locked in combat with.
-Lords of War - They will be limited to one per army.
-Eldar wraith weapons - are allowed, but will all have the distort rule for all their D weapons that are ranged.
-Fortress Assault rules apply.
No real limits other than no D Weapons from buildings
-Two CAD, allies, and formations are allowed.
-Blast and templates - Follow the 6th edition rules for levels.

Thoughts ?

I'm with Mortetvie on this one; the ad hominem attacks aside, none of you make any salient points
applicable to the real tournament circuit.

The only change the Craftworld codex really has on the competitive meta is that it
screws over Necrons and Deathstars and kills Serpent Spam. Is it more powerful than
other 7E codices? Yes, but so was the old Eldar codex. Did GW miss an opportunity to balance Eldar
for 7E? Yes, but any true power cut would have met equal if not greater outrage than the current wine festival.

Change is good. Change is what keeps the game alive. Embrace change. Adapt to the new meta. Paint new miniatures.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I'm with Mortetvie on this one; the ad hominem attacks aside, none of you make any salient points
applicable to the real tournament circuit.

The only change the Craftworld codex really has on the competitive meta is that it
screws over Necrons and Deathstars and kills Serpent Spam. Is it more powerful than
other 7E codices? Yes, but so was the old Eldar codex. Did GW miss an opportunity to balance Eldar
for 7E? Yes, but any true power cut would have met equal if not greater outrage than the current wine festival.

Certainly didn't see anything near this reaction with the AM, DE, GK, SE and Ork books...

Change is good. Change is what keeps the game alive. Embrace change. Adapt to the new meta. Paint new miniatures.

What is there to change to fight Eldar? There's nothing new about fighting them, there's no new secret weakness to figure out, they're just way better. If I'm playing IG, CSM, or GK, what do I radically change about my army to face the new Eldar book that I wasn't already doing before? People keep piping the "adapt" line, but aside from just bringing a bigger tube of lube, nobody has really suggested anything new that people didn't already do before.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Morty, you're saying "Eldar aren't OP, everyone else is just too weak!" That's literally the same thing as saying they're OP, just using different terminology.
You've agreed above that Eldar are the strongest and that other armies are weaker, thus putting everyone else at a disadvantage.
You honestly can't see how that might upset people?

Sad how I make a post about people misquoting me and then arguing against something I never said... And then someone goes ahead and misquotes me and attacks a point I never made... Did you even really read what I said MWHistorian?

I never said "Eldar are not OP, everyone else is just too weak", I said specifically that in the current tournament/competitive environment and meta, the top armies will have no problem against Eldar. This thread is how the new Eldar will affect tournaments, not how OP Eldar are compared to underpowered armies-the latter being a point that many others seem to think is relevant to this thread.

So, Vakathi, AM, DE, GK, SE and Ork books didn't get the same reaction because they were not written with very strong rules and subsequently are not dominating the tournament meta. Those armies subsequently don't compete very well against Flyrant nids, Necrons, Tau, Space Marines or any other top level army out there anyway. So by picking on Eldar and complaining about how OP they are compared to X under powered army is actually an illogical basis for determining whether Eldar are OP or not.

What can go head to head with eldar now ?

Trollface: Eldar.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What can go head to head with eldar now ?

After one week... nobody knows. And that's exactly why people need to calm down and play games.

In my own head though I think these army's will do fine, or even have an advantage:

Daemons of several varieties
Necrons, particularly AV13 walls and wraith spam
Podding marines, especially allied combinations that pod centurions
Nids with lots of Malowcs
Tau with lots of interceptor

 ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
What can go head to head with eldar now ?

After one week... nobody knows. And that's exactly why people need to calm down and play games.

In my own head though I think these army's will do fine, or even have an advantage:

Daemons of several varieties
Necrons, particularly AV13 walls and wraith spam
Podding marines, especially allied combinations that pod centurions
Nids with lots of Malowcs
Tau with lots of interceptor

Pretty much this, plus Flyrant nids and I'd add White Scar type lists. Also, with the right FW units, Imperial Guard can be pretty scary as Earthshaker Artillery with ignores cover are pretty brutal to anything Eldar can field.

Why not just use the rules for Distort instead of D for the first few weeks if it is not such a big deal then ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Why not just use the rules for Distort instead of D for the first few weeks if it is not such a big deal then ?

Why didn't Necron players use the old Reanimation Protocol rules for a few weeks until everyone knew they weren't OP.

Going in and trying to modify the game in this way is a Pandora's box of never ending problems, hurt feelings, and unrealistic expectations. And it kills any hope of ever having a unified way to play 40K across the country.

Are we going to change every game mechanic that 51% of people think is broken? What are the rules for undoing these changes when things are no longer broken? Who gets to decide what mechanics we vote on? It's a terrible mess.

If a TO wants to put his money where his mouth is and change things that he thinks will make the game better for his event, more power to him. I personally think in the long run making these kinds of changes is worse than living with a broken book (which again, no one even knows for sure that it is).

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Why not just use the rules for Distort instead of D for the first few weeks if it is not such a big deal then ?

First of all, why bother going back to using the Distort rules? Ultimately, how to rule/handle D weapons in the Eldar codex is a decision to be made by TOs in a tournament setting and between players in a casual/pick-up game setting..

I don't think so - usually I am against changing rules, restrictions and bans but not this time. I have never used IK because some people think they are OP - eldar players could do the same if its really not a big deal just at first to help disprove the naysayers.

Remember when 40k wasn't apoc? I do...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't think so - usually I am against changing rules, restrictions and bans but not this time. I have never used IK because some people think they are OP - eldar players could do the same if its really not a big deal just at first to help disprove the naysayers.

That's messed up logic.

Perhaps the Eldar players need XYZ to compete. That in and of itself does not mean XYZ is broken.

Asking them to intentionally handicap themselves to assuage the perceptions of a vocal minority, and then using their reluctance to do so as evidence of your argument is disingenuous.

It's just that I don't remember this strong of a reaction before. Personally I don't have any issue with the scatbikes - they are crazy good but nowhere near as survivable as the previous incarnation of the serpent. I totally understand where people are coming from in regards to ranged D though.

I wish the developers would put as much effort into the other codices with great rules for practically every unit.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here are the rules for a local upcoming RTT (not run by me):

All standard rules apply for building armies, save the following.
-Bound armies.
-No ranged D Weapons. Melee D weapons are okay.
-No stomping units outside of Close Combat.
-Forge World is a go.
-Lords of war are limited only by the rules above, meaning if it has D weapons that it cant switch out, you can not take it and if it has a stomp it will be limited to only stomping units it is locked in combat with.
-Lords of War - They will be limited to one per army.
-Eldar wraith weapons - are allowed, but will all have the distort rule for all their D weapons that are ranged.
-Fortress Assault rules apply.
No real limits other than no D Weapons from buildings
-Two CAD, allies, and formations are allowed.
-Blast and templates - Follow the 6th edition rules for levels.

Thoughts ?

All reasonable except for limiting ranged Destroyer. They are more powerful than Distort, but not game breaking. WraithKnighs will bring two D shots to the game.

Two.

That said, I would play in this tourney.

 Brothererekose wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Here are the rules for a local upcoming RTT (not run by me):

All standard rules apply for building armies, save the following.
-Bound armies.
-No ranged D Weapons. Melee D weapons are okay.
-No stomping units outside of Close Combat.
-Forge World is a go.
-Lords of war are limited only by the rules above, meaning if it has D weapons that it cant switch out, you can not take it and if it has a stomp it will be limited to only stomping units it is locked in combat with.
-Lords of War - They will be limited to one per army.
-Eldar wraith weapons - are allowed, but will all have the distort rule for all their D weapons that are ranged.
-Fortress Assault rules apply.
No real limits other than no D Weapons from buildings
-Two CAD, allies, and formations are allowed.
-Blast and templates - Follow the 6th edition rules for levels.

Thoughts ?

All reasonable except for limiting ranged Destroyer. They are more powerful than Distort, but not game breaking. WraithKnighs will bring two D shots to the game.

Two.

That said, I would play in this tourney.

The problem isn't so much Wraithknights bringing two long ranged D weapons but more the fact an Eldar Force Org chart could put ranged D in 10/18 Force Org slots if they wanted.

I actually like these tournament rules. Might pitch this to my local group.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's just that I don't remember this strong of a reaction before.

I think that's a product of 2 things.

1. The prevalence of the internet community. The internet was just not as important, or wasn't around at all for 5th ed grey knights, nidzilla, 3.5 chaos, or whatever your favorite broken codex of yesterday was.

2. The rise of groups like Frontline Gaming setting the expectation that TOs should/will change the game if enough people complain.

And I really don't want to seem like I'm coming down on FLG. They are a HUGE net good to the 40K community. But on this particular topic I think they have it wrong. Like I was saying earlier, soliciting community feedback in the way they do and continually adding fuel to the "this is broken" fire sets the expectation that TOs will/should do something if enough people think the game is "broken". That incentives people to react as loudly as possible to the things they don't like, which doesn't make for civil discourse.