Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
The problem isn't so much Wraithknights bringing two long ranged D weapons but more the fact an Eldar Force Org chart could put ranged D in 10/18 Force Org slots if they wanted.

I actually like these tournament rules. Might pitch this to my local group.

Sorry, I can only see 7 slots, 3 Elite, 3 FA and 1 LoW. What are the other 3?

30 WraithGuard to fill your Elite.
3 Hemlocks for your FA
The WK.

38 D-weps, with no formation goofery, just the normal, old-fashoined ForceOrganizationChart.

1275 in points, plenty for Troops and Spiritseers.

Vaul's Wrath in heavy support makes for the other three.

 mortetvie wrote:
Vaul's Wrath in heavy support makes for the other three.

There we go.

And to make it more amusing...

9 of these slots get Strength D in blast or template form (so, can deal with hordes).
Furthermore, if you're worried this leaves you vulnerable to flyers? Well, you can still mount your Troops as well as the 3 Elites in Wave Serpents with Twin-linked EMLs for Skyfire.

Of course, this is just one problem compounding on top of another. Strength D should really not be so freely available in Template or Blast format.

If I see 9 Vaul's Wrath batteries and serpents equipped with EMLs across from me, I'd be pretty happy.

 mortetvie wrote:
If I see 9 Vaul's Wrath batteries and serpents equipped with EMLs across from me, I'd be pretty happy.

Odds are you won't see more than 1 Vaul's Wrath battery at most. Like I said elsewhere, it sits in far too crowded a Force Org slot - much like the Tyranid Elites slot. However, you cannot dismiss their existence based on that. The amount of Destroyer weapons the Eldar can pull out is only part of the problem. The fact that they got so much skyfire for free in EMLs...well, that's silly too.

"The fact that they got so much skyfire for free in EMLs...well, that's silly too."

The Dark Reapers Exarch's EML is now 20 points rather than the old 10 (+10 for Skyfire) for the launcher. It isn't free, at least not on models I own. It just is no longer an option.

 ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's just that I don't remember this strong of a reaction before.

I think that's a product of 2 things.

1. The prevalence of the internet community. The internet was just not as important, or wasn't around at all for 5th ed grey knights, nidzilla, 3.5 chaos, or whatever your favorite broken codex of yesterday was.

2. The rise of groups like Frontline Gaming setting the expectation that TOs should/will change the game if enough people complain.

And I really don't want to seem like I'm coming down on FLG. They are a HUGE net good to the 40K community. But on this particular topic I think they have it wrong. Like I was saying earlier, soliciting community feedback in the way they do and continually adding fuel to the "this is broken" fire sets the expectation that TOs will/should do something if enough people think the game is "broken". That incentives people to react as loudly as possible to the things they don't like, which doesn't make for civil discourse.

#1 here is simply untrue. If you do a search on Dakka Dakka and do some math you will see that the last 12 months of posting is actually less frequent than any time other than the first year of 6th ed.

May 2010-April 2011 =1,233,321 posts (5e)
May 2011- April 2012 = 1,198,223 Posts (5e)
May 2012 - April 2013 = 617,769 posts (6e)
May 2013 - April 2014 = 1,175,663 Posts (6e)
May 2014 - Present = 1,005,774 Posts (7e)

So you can see that the height of 5th ed (broken GK etc) had a few hundred thousand more posts than current usage.

Throw in with that many other 40k forums closing down, or having much less traffic....Sorry but it simply doesn't hold.

The game is worse that is why you see more complaining, and more people leaving it for greener pastures. This new codex doesn't help this because it rams apoc down the throat of the community. Which many people don't seem to want. Broken or not this codex is bad for the game.

Breng77 wrote:

#1 here is simply untrue. If you do a search on Dakka Dakka and do some math you will see that the last 12 months of posting is actually less frequent than any time other than the first year of 6th ed.

May 2010-April 2011 =1,233,321 posts (5e)
May 2011- April 2012 = 1,198,223 Posts (5e)
May 2012 - April 2013 = 617,769 posts (6e)
May 2013 - April 2014 = 1,175,663 Posts (6e)
May 2014 - Present = 1,005,774 Posts (7e)

So you can see that the height of 5th ed (broken GK etc) had a few hundred thousand more posts than current usage.

Throw in with that many other 40k forums closing down, or having much less traffic....Sorry but it simply doesn't hold.

The game is worse that is why you see more complaining, and more people leaving it for greener pastures. This new codex doesn't help this because it rams apoc down the throat of the community. Which many people don't seem to want. Broken or not this codex is bad for the game.

Dakka traffic (which isn't even down that much) is not a good measure of internet activity. Much of the internet content has shifted away from Dakka and traditional forums, that does not mean the internet is less important.

Either way, 5th ed GKs was only one of the examples I gave.

And whether the game is better or worse is subjective. It's certainly less tournament friendly. But it has far more content, options, and hobbying opportunities than ever before. And I don't think it's any less balanced than when any of the aforementioned books were running around.

What's different now is the internet community has become an echo chamber of people complaining about how the game isn't what it used to be. And there are several major websites/internet personalities feeding that mentality. You didn't have that in 5th when many of the same personalities were telling everything to play the game as it was written.

Maybe that says something about how the game was written?

I would argue that the game is less balanced than it has ever been as far as producing fun close games. While you may not see a large shift from one book winning most often, it seemed to me at least that I found fewer hard counters, fewer terrible match-ups, and more enjoyable games.

Sure it has more content, and options but as to whether they are any good....that is up to each of us individually. Personally I'd prefer fewer more valid options.

There was just as much complaining on the Internet with 'big name' personalities back in fifth edition.

 Brothererekose wrote:
They are more powerful than Distort, but not game breaking.

No offense to you personally, but I think this statement is the core of the "Eldar Denial" problem. Because very few people are saying "the game is broken!" in the sense that core mechanics no longer function, or the new Eldar will table their opponents turn 1. The overriding concern is that the deck is so stacked in the Eldar player's favor now that the only way to have a chance of beating them is to bring tailored tournament-tier lists. It doesn't break the game, but it ruins it for some players. Eldar apologists seem to be looking at it as "Sure I'll win, but we can still have a game", while every one else looks at it through the lens of having little to no hope of eventual victory.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Brothererekose wrote:
They are more powerful than Distort, but not game breaking.

No offense to you personally, but I think this statement is the core of the "Eldar Denial" problem. Because very few people are saying "the game is broken!" in the sense that core mechanics no longer function, or the new Eldar will table their opponents turn 1. The overriding concern is that the deck is so stacked in the Eldar player's favor now that the only way to have a chance of beating them is to bring tailored tournament-tier lists. It doesn't break the game, but it ruins it for some players. Eldar apologists seem to be looking at it as "Sure I'll win, but we can still have a game", while every one else looks at it through the lens of having little to no hope of eventual victory.

Exalted for much truth.

Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

Because those same players regularly change their armies? Many of these heroes of skill you glorify are guilty of alt-itis. The inability to stick to an army that has fallen out of place in the top dogs spot. The ones that do stick to their favorite army thru thick and thin do not put up numbers nearly as impressive.

Without massive nerfs for tournaments, you will see many of these all stars have switched to primary eldar. They play at home with their fulffy armies for fun. They come to tournaments practiced with the hardest lists they can find.

 Orock wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

Because those same players regularly change their armies? Many of these heroes of skill you glorify are guilty of alt-itis. The inability to stick to an army that has fallen out of place in the top dogs spot. The ones that do stick to their favorite army thru thick and thin do not put up numbers nearly as impressive.

Without massive nerfs for tournaments, you will see many of these all stars have switched to primary eldar. They play at home with their fulffy armies for fun. They come to tournaments practiced with the hardest lists they can find.

The codex has been out for a week, and you're telling me you know that the top players have already switched to Eldar?

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

Ummm....most top GT players are using a good amount of the "broken" things in the game. I also did not say there was no skill involved there is, some of it is in list building, some on the table. That does not negate the fact that there is a ton of luck involved in the game now. You can work to minimize its impact but it is still there, and when I've played games where things like the Warp Storm Crippled an entire army in one turn....yeah luck is still huge.

Breng77 wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

Ummm....most top GT players are using a good amount of the "broken" things in the game. I also did not say there was no skill involved there is, some of it is in list building, some on the table. That does not negate the fact that there is a ton of luck involved in the game now. You can work to minimize its impact but it is still there, and when I've played games where things like the Warp Storm Crippled an entire army in one turn....yeah luck is still huge.

Prior to this edition I had played a game where my opponent failed 90% of his saves in a single turn (we did the math, I think this game was actually with Brothererekos if memory serves) and had his army crippled. That doesn't mean I think using dice to make saves brings too much luck into the game. Luck has always been a huge factor in this game, prior to 5th edition the missions used in tournaments themselves had a massive amount of luck and randomness involved, it's the reality of this game.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

Because those same players regularly change their armies? Many of these heroes of skill you glorify are guilty of alt-itis. The inability to stick to an army that has fallen out of place in the top dogs spot. The ones that do stick to their favorite army thru thick and thin do not put up numbers nearly as impressive.

Without massive nerfs for tournaments, you will see many of these all stars have switched to primary eldar. They play at home with their fulffy armies for fun. They come to tournaments practiced with the hardest lists they can find.

The codex has been out for a week, and you're telling me you know that the top players have already switched to Eldar?

You are acting like many of them dident already have them in the closet from the last round of eldar domination. Many of them started practicing when it was just rumors. Dont take my word for it though, wait until a major tournament happens that foolishly has not put any restrictions on the eldar codex. Tell me who wins.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

almost all top tournament lists still include top tier units and mechanisms. You can for example, point to the lists with lictors that placed well, but only of you ignore the multiple ubiquitous flying hive tyrants.

These players also frequently change armies and builds, and aren't playing the same list the next year.

A lot of tournaments also have their own scenarios, rules, and restrictions that may change the performance and viability of many units and builds.

Let's also not forget that half or more of any given GT's players aren't really competitive and are just there for giggles and many only ever attend once or twice.

 Orock wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Orock wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL....."I'm amazing at this game and because I'm awesome I always play a strong codex against bad players." Big fish small pond syndrome.

I hate the new Eldar book for the same reason I have generally hated the Knight Codex, data slate formations etc. IT is forcing Apocalypse into a regular scale game. Which is a game that I don't find enjoyable. Minimal tactics, lots of dice rolling, lots of luck in the game that can make the game unenjoyable.

If there is so much luck and lack of skill involved now why is it the same players consistently finish in the top spots at major GTs, often not using the most "broken" things in the game?

Because those same players regularly change their armies? Many of these heroes of skill you glorify are guilty of alt-itis. The inability to stick to an army that has fallen out of place in the top dogs spot. The ones that do stick to their favorite army thru thick and thin do not put up numbers nearly as impressive.

Without massive nerfs for tournaments, you will see many of these all stars have switched to primary eldar. They play at home with their fulffy armies for fun. They come to tournaments practiced with the hardest lists they can find.

The codex has been out for a week, and you're telling me you know that the top players have already switched to Eldar?

You are acting like many of them dident already have them in the closet from the last round of eldar domination. Many of them started practicing when it was just rumors. Dont take my word for it though, wait until a major tournament happens that foolishly has not put any restrictions on the eldar codex. Tell me who wins.

Do you have any sort of proof of this, or is it just hypobole? You know what is being kept in these people's closets? You saw them sneaking off for secret training sessions with screen shots from the rumor mill? If you don't already, you should really go work for the NSA, your covert skills are clearly honed to a razors edge.

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL! OH boy. "L2p, bro! But L2P like me cause I'm amazing. I play eldar against scrubs and I win...so...I'm awesome."

Anybody who wins 95% of the time is clubbing baby seals.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Anybody who wins 95% of the time is clubbing baby seals.

I know I haven't agreed with much you've said in this thread Dozer but I am 100% on your side here. That post is as full of hyperbole as some posts on the other side of the issue.

 MWHistorian wrote:

ConanMan wrote:
Eldar have not had a weakened codex and everyone goes beserk.. I don't know why, I know of one other guy who plays them.. the truth is that for 95% of people who play 40k ( who I beat ) make tactically attrocious decisions that I wouldn't ever have made.

You don't know me, but I win a lot I have been regularly thanked by my opponents for being the only person they had played who could beat them. This happens to me a lot. Chaos, Orks..

Why do I win a lot, because play eldar? No. Because I like eldar BECAUSE I know what I am doing. So I win a lot.

Please please please forgive the huge arrogance it may seem to take for me to make that last statement. I DON'T say it lightly. I am not "god" in 40k, far from it, but it may be relevant that I am very good at chess and I am very good at probabilities in my head I can work out all options odds of success and project two turns ahead and have contingencies. So. BECAUSE I can do that I have to play Eldar because they reward good play better than any army and they punish bad play. They have always been like this.

Why do I have to play eldar? Because the other armies are boring to me.

I win a lot because I study the oppnents army books, I watch tonnes of battlereports on youtube, I study what worked, I know the rules (mostly) and I have a plan ahead of time for if the opponent does a b or c and I stick to the plan no matter my emotional angst and I know how to use terrain and I work hard at the prep. Very hard.

When I play 95% of people they have none of this. They stick their big guns in buildings and camp attempting to win by rolling dice.

95% of who I play DO powergame. They don't realise it. They want better armour cheaper troops better guns more invuls. When they don't get it they cry.

that is why I think people hate eldar codexs: they are typically codexes that are not weak. And now because their powergaming toys in a line at the back WILL NOT WORK they cry cheese

LOL! OH boy. "L2p, bro! But L2P like me cause I'm amazing. I play eldar against scrubs and I win...so...I'm awesome."

Pretty much this.
Don't go tooting your own horn because you beat a few people at your local club with one of the most powerful armies in 40k then claim it has nothing to do with the army it's my leet skills!!!
Go play a real tournament where you can play people with leet skillz!!! And then come back and say how well you really did instead of relying on your army list for a lot of those wins.
No one knows who you are, so posting how amazing you are as a player means absolutely nothing when the majority of 40k players are casual.
Honestly you just come off as an ahole, a major tournament winning player that plays in our local friendly club actually downgrade his lists and plays fun but noncompetitve unit choices so that they don't win all the time or stomp other people like you gleefully stated and believe me you are no where near as good a player as him.

You guys realize he was mocking the Eldar defenders...



Simple truth is that GW took what were already top tier choices and made then even better as well as buffed a lot of what was in the Eldar Dex after a trend of rebalancing towards a much lower point. Thankfully the fixed the Wave Serpent, if only they could have FAQed those changes two years ago. I mean the WK gains over a 50% increase in durability, Stomp, Strength D, etc all for just a 23% increase in Points. Its a damned shame GW had to go and wreck their 7th edition codex trend, they were putting out some, albeit bland, consistently internally and externally well balanced codices. Sure Necron was a bit of an oops, but damn did they ever botch Eldar. I would have enjoyed a full 7th edition release on par with the first half dozen 7th edition books. What worries me competitively is that GW will return to their lower power level balancing trend removing the options that actually stand a chance against Eldar.

All I can say is that I am happy it looks like at least NOVA is sticking to their no GMC/SHV/SHW LoW ruling as well as looking at a small modification to Strength D. It is the one thing stopping me from abandoning ship completely. If so, no WK, reigned in D shooting, no more Imperial Knights and Adamantine Lance once their new dex drops and labels them LoW.... at least at NOVA and that is a trend I'd like to see perpetuated.

Is no 2+/++ Rerollable, no GMC/SHW/SHV, and no FMC Flying Circus too much to ask?? Throw in some limits to Battle Brothers and I feel like we'd have something reasonable for a competitive landscape that would appeal to a greater number of players offering more varied army selections and play-styles.

#KeepApocOutOfMy40k

 Zagman wrote:
You guys realize he was mocking the Eldar defenders...



Simple truth is that GW took what were already top tier choices and made then even better as well as buffed a lot of what was in the Eldar Dex after a trend of rebalancing towards a much lower point. Thankfully the fixed the Wave Serpent, if only they could have FAQed those changes two years ago. I mean the WK gains over a 50% increase in durability, Stomp, Strength D, etc all for just a 23% increase in Points. Its a damned shame GW had to go and wreck their 7th edition codex trend, they were putting out some, albeit bland, consistently internally and externally well balanced codices. Sure Necron was a bit of an oops, but damn did they ever botch Eldar. I would have enjoyed a full 7th edition release on par with the first half dozen 7th edition books. What worries me competitively is that GW will return to their lower power level balancing trend removing the options that actually stand a chance against Eldar.

All I can say is that I am happy it looks like at least NOVA is sticking to their no GMC/SHV/SHW LoW ruling as well as looking at a small modification to Strength D. It is the one thing stopping me from abandoning ship completely. If so, no WK, reigned in D shooting, no more Imperial Knights and Adamantine Lance once their new dex drops and labels them LoW.... at least at NOVA and that is a trend I'd like to see perpetuated.

Is no 2+/++ Rerollable, no GMC/SHW/SHV, and no FMC Flying Circus too much to ask?? Throw in some limits to Battle Brothers and I feel like we'd have something reasonable for a competitive landscape that would appeal to a greater number of players offering more varied army selections and play-styles.

#KeepApocOutOfMy40k

All those solutions do is create a new meta where Tyranids are once again unplayable and Space Marine builds, except DA of course, will rise to the top. Granted that meta will have the effect you're desiring. A SM dominant meta, being the most abundantly played faction, will mean an increase in tournament interest from otherwise "maligned" SM players. Maybe. But that increase in appeal to greater numbers of players wouldn't be the result of more varied army selections, it would be a result of a power shift toward "traditional" 40k armies like Space Marines.

There should be a separation between a player's skill and the army they play (i.e., player skill =/= army used). A good player playing a strong army who wins or does well in a competitive setting should not be blasted for playing a strong army/using strong units. Likewise, their winning with a strong army should not diminish their victory because in the end, you still have to play other strong armies and opponents to get to the top.

Also, if a player plays Eldar (a strong army overall) but does not take all of the best things or maybe just a few of the strong things in that army, they should not be lumped into the same category of someone who does. And to reiterate, someone who takes only the best out of everything in a strong codex does not make him a bad person or diminish his skill if he wins. If I want to win a car race, I will try to get the best and fastest car, not the worst and slowest. If I just like to drive a car because I like it/think it is cool but it is nowhere near the fastest/best, I shouldn't complain about my car being so slow/bad and the other person's being so fast/good. In the end, we all choose what army/list we want to compete with-if competing is what we are intending to do. The fallacy a lot of people are making, by analogy, is that they are apparently claiming to be stuck with a Ford Focus while Eldar just got a Porche Turbo. I think and maintain that we still need to test things out before jumping to that conclusion.

Indeed, at the top tables and against good opponents, the respective armies being played are less of a factor than the relative skill between the players. I find that the games at that level of play are won or lost due to little mistakes here and there that are capitalized on by an opponent.

It is at this level of play that I maintain Eldar are fine and will not turn out to be "OP and break the game."

Now in terms of things like RTTs, casual gaming, the average tournament player/wargamer in general, I can see how Eldar appear to be too strong. Indeed, if anything, I was simply making the following points:

(1) Eldar are likely not as "OP" as people are making them out to be for the various reasons I stated.

(2) The basis for determining that Eldar are "OP" that the majority of people in this thread have relied on is not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. We really do need more time to see how Eldar do in the meta.

(3) At top level tournament play, Eldar will not dominate or destroy the meta.

I have also couched my arguments with the understanding that Wraith Knights will be limited to 1 or 0 per army and that D weapons will have their rules adjusted. I have also expressed my *opinion* as to why I don't think that Wraith Knights, D-Weapons, Scatter Laser equipped bikes are as big of a deal as people are making them out to be and why the foundation/basis for saying they are a huge deal is based on faulty reasoning. We simply need to try Eldar out a bit and see what IS or ISN'T a problem with the codex rather than simply rely on a smattering of battle reports/math-hammer. Personal experience speaks more to me than some numbers crunched on the internet. Also, on a personal note, I probably won't take any bikes with Scatter Lasers and would be more than happy to have D weapons toned down and to be limited to a single Wraith Knight. I just want to take Eldar and play them because I like them-not because they are "super strong". I also don't like the notion of people thinking I only win because I play Eldar-it is a bigoted attitude to think people only win because they play a strong army.

If I would have written the codex:

(1) I think keeping Jetbikes at 1 weapon per 3 and having Scatter Lasers be 15 points would have been fair.
(2) I think instead of Destroyer, a modified Distort table would have worked just fine.
(3) I think that a Wraith Knight should have been around 340-350 and rather than Gargantuan, make all Wraith units harder to wound by poison/sniper based weapons and given them FNP.

Wish listing now...
(4) I would have made Wraith Lords 1-3 per choice =(.
(5) I would have given CC aspects/Wraith Blades an extra attack (or given Wraith Blades rampage as well).

Anyway, my thoughts.

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
You guys realize he was mocking the Eldar defenders...



Simple truth is that GW took what were already top tier choices and made then even better as well as buffed a lot of what was in the Eldar Dex after a trend of rebalancing towards a much lower point. Thankfully the fixed the Wave Serpent, if only they could have FAQed those changes two years ago. I mean the WK gains over a 50% increase in durability, Stomp, Strength D, etc all for just a 23% increase in Points. Its a damned shame GW had to go and wreck their 7th edition codex trend, they were putting out some, albeit bland, consistently internally and externally well balanced codices. Sure Necron was a bit of an oops, but damn did they ever botch Eldar. I would have enjoyed a full 7th edition release on par with the first half dozen 7th edition books. What worries me competitively is that GW will return to their lower power level balancing trend removing the options that actually stand a chance against Eldar.

All I can say is that I am happy it looks like at least NOVA is sticking to their no GMC/SHV/SHW LoW ruling as well as looking at a small modification to Strength D. It is the one thing stopping me from abandoning ship completely. If so, no WK, reigned in D shooting, no more Imperial Knights and Adamantine Lance once their new dex drops and labels them LoW.... at least at NOVA and that is a trend I'd like to see perpetuated.

Is no 2+/++ Rerollable, no GMC/SHW/SHV, and no FMC Flying Circus too much to ask?? Throw in some limits to Battle Brothers and I feel like we'd have something reasonable for a competitive landscape that would appeal to a greater number of players offering more varied army selections and play-styles.

#KeepApocOutOfMy40k

All those solutions do is create a new meta where Tyranids are once again unplayable and Space Marine builds, except DA of course, will rise to the top. Granted that meta will have the effect you're desiring. A SM dominant meta, being the most abundantly played faction, will mean an increase in tournament interest from otherwise "maligned" SM players. Maybe. But that increase in appeal to greater numbers of players wouldn't be the result of more varied army selections, it would be a result of a power shift toward "traditional" 40k armies like Space Marines.

Or maybe many of the disgusted players out there that have effectively quit would poke their heads back out, share time with their Warmachine etc armies and reenter the fray giving us higher attendance and a healthier scene.

Of course the Meta would shift, and its likely SM would begin to dominate, maybe not if Battle Brothers weren't such an issue, but the end result would be a narrowing of the overall power level gap in the game. The smaller the overall power level gap and the greater number of viable builds for tournament play across the widest array of different armies the better the hobby and the competitive scene will be in general. Given the trend, relative balance, and power level of most of the 7th edition releases we would be looking at a much narrower power level gap and closer more varied field of competition. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be "better".