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 ejazzyjeff wrote:

Wow!!! Mort you must of been reading my mind, This is my same exact view. Love the books and movies, I re-read the books every two years, Watch the movies over and over that I know all the lines.

Thank you sir. I know my post probably came off a LOT more harshly than I intended, but it gets old dealing with narrow-minded people.

It's the same way some fans freak out over little things in the Marvel movies, or whatever. The movies do not render your books/comics 'invalid'. Peter Jackson is not going to steal your copies of Lord of the Rings books. And I can't count the number of times I've heard people tell me, "I never would have read the books if it wasn't for the movies'.

Exposing more people to the books, to Tolkien's works, is a GOOD THING, in my eyes, no matter how much someone hates the movies, and in a lot of people's eyes, those movies will live on far longer than the books will anyway, as we all know they aren't exactly 'easy' to read.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

-Mort

Mort wrote:

 ejazzyjeff wrote:

Wow!!! Mort you must of been reading my mind, This is my same exact view. Love the books and movies, I re-read the books every two years, Watch the movies over and over that I know all the lines.

Thank you sir. I know my post probably came off a LOT more harshly than I intended, but it gets old dealing with narrow-minded people.

It's the same way some fans freak out over little things in the Marvel movies, or whatever. The movies do not render your books/comics 'invalid'. Peter Jackson is not going to steal your copies of Lord of the Rings books. And I can't count the number of times I've heard people tell me, "I never would have read the books if it wasn't for the movies'.

Exposing more people to the books, to Tolkien's works, is a GOOD THING, in my eyes, no matter how much someone hates the movies, and in a lot of people's eyes, those movies will live on far longer than the books will anyway, as we all know they aren't exactly 'easy' to read.

Anyway, sorry for the rant.

-Mort

I was in my mid-40's when I took my wife and kids to see the LOTR and I was totally amazed by the movies. My wife had no idea about LOTR, but she really enjoyed the movies, she cried when Gandalf "died". My philosophy is life is too short to nitpick about small things.

I still can't even...

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
I still can't even...

MB

Then don't.

BeAfraid wrote:
I still can't even...

MB

what??? You have a problem with Peter Jackson's movies, fine, I like the movies and I'm sure majority of other people here like them. If it is such a beef to you, start up another thread as to why you hate the movies and how the Tolkien estate should sue whoever bought the rights and how the miniatures should have a more "Tolkienese" look of Orcs.

I am not going to change your mind how you feel about the movies/figures and you are not going to change mine. This is called agreeing to disagree and so we carry on with other things that get us through life.
Stop beating a dead horse.

 ejazzyjeff wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
I still can't even...

MB

what??? You have a problem with Peter Jackson's movies, fine, I like the movies and I'm sure majority of other people here like them. If it is such a beef to you, start up another thread as to why you hate the movies and how the Tolkien estate should sue whoever bought the rights and how the miniatures should have a more "Tolkienese" look of Orcs.

I am not going to change your mind how you feel about the movies/figures and you are not going to change mine. This is called agreeing to disagree and so we carry on with other things that get us through life.
Stop beating a dead horse.

And still completely missing the point.

MB

 ejazzyjeff wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
I still can't even...

MB

what??? You have a problem with Peter Jackson's movies, fine, I like the movies and I'm sure majority of other people here like them. If it is such a beef to you, start up another thread as to why you hate the movies and how the Tolkien estate should sue whoever bought the rights and how the miniatures should have a more "Tolkienese" look of Orcs.

I am not going to change your mind how you feel about the movies/figures and you are not going to change mine. This is called agreeing to disagree and so we carry on with other things that get us through life.
Stop beating a dead horse.

He's trolling. I slapped him on ignore, and suddenly my Dakka experience has increased dramatically.

He's not going to change minds. The movies have been out long enough now that folks either like them or they don't. The purist-rage against Peter Jackson is just so amazingly silly that it truly is ludicrous.

George R R Martin recently responded with the perfect reply recently over the 'outrage' concerning the changes to Game of Thrones series vs. his books. "The show is the show, the books are the books; two different tellings of the same story."

Simple enough.

BeAfraid wrote:

 ejazzyjeff wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
I still can't even...

MB

what??? You have a problem with Peter Jackson's movies, fine, I like the movies and I'm sure majority of other people here like them. If it is such a beef to you, start up another thread as to why you hate the movies and how the Tolkien estate should sue whoever bought the rights and how the miniatures should have a more "Tolkienese" look of Orcs.

I am not going to change your mind how you feel about the movies/figures and you are not going to change mine. This is called agreeing to disagree and so we carry on with other things that get us through life.
Stop beating a dead horse.

And still completely missing the point.

MB

I'm sure that everybody in this thread and several neighboring threads has got your point. They just don't agree with it.

But you seem to like making assumptions about other people based on the premise that they can only comprehend things at your level or below it. That's an assumption you need to challenge hard. You seem to be a very knowledgeable man, so please remember Rabbi Hillel's famous quote and act on it.


PS: Remember that respect is not just earned, but also lost.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:

 ejazzyjeff wrote:

BeAfraid wrote:
I still can't even...

MB

what??? You have a problem with Peter Jackson's movies, fine, I like the movies and I'm sure majority of other people here like them. If it is such a beef to you, start up another thread as to why you hate the movies and how the Tolkien estate should sue whoever bought the rights and how the miniatures should have a more "Tolkienese" look of Orcs.

I am not going to change your mind how you feel about the movies/figures and you are not going to change mine. This is called agreeing to disagree and so we carry on with other things that get us through life.
Stop beating a dead horse.

And still completely missing the point.

MB

I'm sure that everybody in this thread and several neighboring threads has got your point. They just don't agree with it.

But you seem to like making assumptions about other people based on the premise that they can only comprehend things at your level or below it. That's an assumption you need to challenge hard. You seem to be a very knowledgeable man, so please remember Rabbi Hillel's famous quote and act on it.


PS: Remember that respect is not just earned, but also lost.

I am pretty sure that if I saw a response that was anywhere close to responding to the point I actually made I would recognize it.

It is as if I pointed to a pig and said "That is not a horse." and everyone responded with accusations of bigotry against pigs or bacon.

MB

Just to draw back to the initial question in the title of this thread, I've been picking up models here and there, and I'm finding that any current rulebooks, and anything that essentially wasn't in Battle Games in Middle Earth is actually quite pricey on the market at the moment. I'm very much getting the impression that there's a lively and growing tournament scene in LOTR in the UK (the Great British Hobbit League) which is pulling in new members ( the number of tournaments/attendees keeps expanding) and placing the market under a decent amount of demand.

This is all very encouraging as far as I'm concerned. It wouldn't be the first time (Battlefleet Gothic, Blood Bowl, etc) that a game actually took off more as it hit the indie circuit and GW let go of it. Lord of the Rings seems to have a wide enough model variety, a tight enough ruleset, and enough of a fan/fluff base that it may well be the next one to do so.

I do hope so. While part of the price increase is a reaction to stuff going/threatening to go OOP and GW's own 2-300% price increases on plastics, there had certainly been an upswing in interest around the last film, where it actually got back to battling, rather then a dozen Dwarves against the world. (Not that the latter isn't fun to play, but armies clashing is what draws more people to the tabletop game than narrative stuff).

I don't think the game itself and the community are going anywhere soon. While GW rather let BotFA pass them by for whatever reason, there have been plenty of conversions, batreps and house rules for it. The GBHL's American Cousin, the DCHL formed just last year and are rapidly expanding, as well as putting out great hobby content/promoting other fan made stuff. The new SBG fanzine I posted about yesterday is an excellent publication and they're already working on the next two issues.

The biggest problem facing LotR at the moment is the discontinuation of sometimes key minis. If the old and amazingly complete LotR range had stayed in production, even with metal/Finecast 'cast on demand', we'd have nothing to worry about, but with more stuff disappearing every day, and replacements not all that common (whereas plenty of people make Not-romunda or Battle fleet Not-hic) yet, some effort is required to create certain minis ourselves. With plastics and moderate conversion skill, and a few Historical/generic fantasy parts, it's possible to cover most things, but I do wonder how many people new to the hobby at large are put off by needing to convert what they could have just bought a couple of years ago. Especially for the more unique stuff, it can be a little daunting. The lack of new stuff doesn't help; I wonder how many people saw BotFA, went into GW to pick up Dain and some Dwarf Pikemen only to find out they don't do them at all, or baulked at the price of Thranduil's Elves in Finecast.

Still, though, I have no doubt the game will live on, amongst those who already played, but without an easy way to attract new blood, it might be hard to grow. That said, there are still a fair number of folks on forums looking to start up, and people ready to help them out, so we shall see.

 Paradigm wrote:
I do hope so. While part of the price increase is a reaction to stuff going/threatening to go OOP and GW's own 2-300% price increases on plastics, there had certainly been an upswing in interest around the last film, where it actually got back to battling, rather then a dozen Dwarves against the world. (Not that the latter isn't fun to play, but armies clashing is what draws more people to the tabletop game than narrative stuff).

I don't think the game itself and the community are going anywhere soon. While GW rather let BotFA pass them by for whatever reason, there have been plenty of conversions, batreps and house rules for it. The GBHL's American Cousin, the DCHL formed just last year and are rapidly expanding, as well as putting out great hobby content/promoting other fan made stuff. The new SBG fanzine I posted about yesterday is an excellent publication and they're already working on the next two issues.

The biggest problem facing LotR at the moment is the discontinuation of sometimes key minis. If the old and amazingly complete LotR range had stayed in production, even with metal/Finecast 'cast on demand', we'd have nothing to worry about, but with more stuff disappearing every day, and replacements not all that common (whereas plenty of people make Not-romunda or Battle fleet Not-hic) yet, some effort is required to create certain minis ourselves. With plastics and moderate conversion skill, and a few Historical/generic fantasy parts, it's possible to cover most things, but I do wonder how many people new to the hobby at large are put off by needing to convert what they could have just bought a couple of years ago. Especially for the more unique stuff, it can be a little daunting. The lack of new stuff doesn't help; I wonder how many people saw BotFA, went into GW to pick up Dain and some Dwarf Pikemen only to find out they don't do them at all, or baulked at the price of Thranduil's Elves in Finecast.

Still, though, I have no doubt the game will live on, amongst those who already played, but without an easy way to attract new blood, it might be hard to grow. That said, there are still a fair number of folks on forums looking to start up, and people ready to help them out, so we shall see.

The easiest way to do it, quite frankly, would be for a little company to identify all the OOP stuff, and sculpt appropriate replacements as they go out of production, Blood Bowl style, so that the game is still accessible for new entrants. You could then buy 'not-Dain', 'Generic Dwarfish pikeman' and so on then. I'll be frank, the rules are tight, and any replacement will struggle to outdo them. If alternative models are available to replace those that are hard to find though, there's little to stop people getting into the game (especially with the core plastic troops so very cheap!)

I find it entertaining however, that the Hobbit/LOTR range seems to be doing best when GW give the least amount of support/interest though....

I'm sure stuff like that will turn up in time. Some stuff (orcs, non-Gondor humans) are pretty well covered by the likes of WGF/Perry/Fireforge in conversion-friendly kits with lots of options. The biggest gaps that I see are truescale Dwarves/Elves en masse, and bigger orcs (for Gundabad/Morannon/Uruks) that don't go into Warhammer-esque overblown proportions. There are some out there for those, but mostly in metal and either hard to get outside of their country of origin or expensive to get multiples of.

But frankly there's never been a better time for the hobby at large for choice or variety, so I have faith serviceable replacements (intended or otherwise) will appear.

If it were not for people's fixation on the Peter Jackson/Weta design aesthetic, I am doing exactly what has been described:

Sculpting replacements for the GW stuff.

But I am using a design aesthetic that is closer to what Tolkien described (contrary to some people' salamis, there is a MASSIVE differentiation between the various factions - although some less than others) in the various works, and his own personal essays (published in The History of Middle-earth, or remarked upon in The Letters of JRRT).

I am finally getting around to doing some concept art for the minis I have not yet got around to sculpting (it has taken some time due to my 3D design skills being vastly better than my 2D skills).

So people will be able to get a better idea of what direction I am taking.

The minis should be compatible with the GW stuff as well (with some minor contrasts in some factions).

Such as the Gondorians I am doing should work as Soldiers from the Wealthier Fiefs for the GW minis, Such as Pelargir, Ethir Anduin, the Lamedon Lowlands, or Morthond Vale (which had actual warriors other than the famed Archers).

But if people are wedded to the GW minis, then they need to grab what they can now.

MB

BeAfraid wrote:
If it were not for people's fixation on the Peter Jackson/Weta design aesthetic, I am doing exactly what has been described:

Sculpting replacements for the GW stuff.

But I am using a design aesthetic that is closer to what Tolkien described (contrary to some people' salamis, there is a MASSIVE differentiation between the various factions - although some less than others) in the various works, and his own personal essays (published in The History of Middle-earth, or remarked upon in The Letters of JRRT).

I am finally getting around to doing some concept art for the minis I have not yet got around to sculpting (it has taken some time due to my 3D design skills being vastly better than my 2D skills).

So people will be able to get a better idea of what direction I am taking.

The minis should be compatible with the GW stuff as well (with some minor contrasts in some factions).

Such as the Gondorians I am doing should work as Soldiers from the Wealthier Fiefs for the GW minis, Such as Pelargir, Ethir Anduin, the Lamedon Lowlands, or Morthond Vale (which had actual warriors other than the famed Archers).

But if people are wedded to the GW minis, then they need to grab what they can now.

MB

Speaking purely from a business perspective, you might have better luck if you can expand on stuff that GW hasn't already done, or stuff that is severely OOP (like Dalamyr). Redoing Warriors of Minas Tirith probably won't get you very far in terms of a customer base, by pure virtue of the fact that people can pick up HIPS alternatives for a song. The same again for standard trolls or Uruk-Hai and suchlike. Doing 'Gondorian Aristocrat Bodyguards' that could pass as either Citadel Guard, or an entirely new unit with a profile drawn up by yourself or the fans however, would generate infinitely more sales.

I think you have to more or less resolve yourself to the fact that whatever you make will be acting in a supplementary sense to the GW stuff, rather than a replacement. If not, all it takes is someone else doing that, and you'll be pushed out of the market, and not make your time/'money back. Unless it's a personal project, of course.

The biggest gaps that I see are truescale Dwarves/Elves en masse, and bigger orcs (for Gundabad/Morannon/Uruks) that don't go into Warhammer-esque overblown proportions. There are some out there for those, but mostly in metal and either hard to get outside of their country of origin or expensive to get multiples of.

But frankly there's never been a better time for the hobby at large for choice or variety, so I have faith serviceable replacements (intended or otherwise) will appear.

Aye. I'd consider it myself if I had the time.

BeAfraid wrote:
If it were not for people's fixation on the Peter Jackson/Weta design aesthetic, I am doing exactly what has been described:

Sculpting replacements for the GW stuff.

But I am using a design aesthetic that is closer to what Tolkien described (contrary to some people' salamis, there is a MASSIVE differentiation between the various factions - although some less than others) in the various works, and his own personal essays (published in The History of Middle-earth, or remarked upon in The Letters of JRRT).

I am finally getting around to doing some concept art for the minis I have not yet got around to sculpting (it has taken some time due to my 3D design skills being vastly better than my 2D skills).

So people will be able to get a better idea of what direction I am taking.

The minis should be compatible with the GW stuff as well (with some minor contrasts in some factions).

Such as the Gondorians I am doing should work as Soldiers from the Wealthier Fiefs for the GW minis, Such as Pelargir, Ethir Anduin, the Lamedon Lowlands, or Morthond Vale (which had actual warriors other than the famed Archers).

But if people are wedded to the GW minis, then they need to grab what they can now.

MB

Kind of echoing what Ketara said, but is this about business or in creating a more 'faithful' range (not that the two are mutually exclusive)? Because while the latter is admirable and your work so far does look promising, I think there might be money to be made in replacing some of the OOP GW stuff in a style that is less Tolkien and more Jackson. For example, if you were to sculpt some 'Orcs with Tower Shields and crested helms' (Black Guard of Barad Dur) or 'Warriors of the Far South' (Mahud) ect, you'd open yourself to a far wider audience than straight replacements for Mordor Orcs/WoMT/Riders of Rohan that most gamers already have/don't feel the need to replace.

This needn't stop you doing your own Tolkien-based work, but providing alternatives to a community that is ready to buy them (just look at the prices people pay for these OOP minis on eBay) would do them a service and make you a fair bit of money (that would then fund production of your 'faithful' minis.

What I am doing will certainly fill in the holes in the GW line.

THAT is part of the reason I began doing this to begin with.

Aside from Mahûd, there are Umbarrim, more troops for Khand, Easterling Chariots (which I have already done, I just need to modify some crew for them - although the Easterling Chariots will be re-done eventually, but that is far down the list).

And for Gondor I will be doing troops for all of the fiefs, starting with the famed Archers of Morthod Vale (sorry, but they would look nothing like either the Rangers of Ithilien/Gondor, or the Perry's Hundred Year's War stuff - which is far too late period), and the troops from Pelargir, Linhir, and far western provinces/fiefs like the Pinnath Gelin and Andrast.

The order in which I chose to do things has more to do with the fact that Tom Meier never freaking finishes a damned line of miniatures, and I wanted to be able to get a complete army of Orcs from the Misty Mountains.

Once those are done, I will be moving on to the Gondorian Troops, and then Dwarves (which I have always wanted an army of, but no one made any miniatures I liked for a full army), and then a bunch of Mid-Third Age stuff that would also work to fill out the Easterlings.

Eventually I will get around to doing more Rohirrim. The GW Rohirrim are probably the only LotR figures that Jackson got close to right. They are just too limited in type to really fill out a complete Éohere. They need more heavy Lance Armed types (Sort of like the Sons of Éorl, but with helmets and lances, in addition to the heavy me lee weapons - take a look at some Goths), more troops with lighter armor, and not everyone carried a bow (the ONE flaw I find with the Weta/GW stuff). But six figures is hardly enough to provide for a complete Éohere, which consisted of three regional groupings of Éotheod/Rohirrim, and three separate classes of warriors in the individual Éoreds.

And, of course, providing figures for Arnor that would allow for a complete army. GW makes, what, three figures for Arnor?

Given that they look rather plain, it would be easier to just provide a complete line of miniatures for Arnor regardless of whether people wish to use the GW figures for Arnor.

Plus there are the figures for Arthedain, Cardolan, and Rhudaur (both Númenóreans, and after the Númenórean families were all killed by the Hill-men of Rhudaur, under the control of Angmar).

Getting the figures done will go much more quickly once I replace my current computer, as I will not be so constrained by the limits of RAM (I currently have to do chain mail by hand, which slows down creation times for figures considerably).

But... The idea isn't to wholly neglect what GW has done, but to provide a base for when they eventually abandon the line.

MB

 Paradigm wrote:
Still, though, I have no doubt the game will live on, amongst those who already played, but without an easy way to attract new blood, it might be hard to grow. That said, there are still a fair number of folks on forums looking to start up, and people ready to help them out, so we shall see.

I'm more of a scenario player and have come from a historical gaming background where it isn't unusual for one player to select the scenario, set up the terrain, provide the miniatures for both sides and then invite a friend (or friends) to play. This is the way I usually play LOTR/TH and I have a large enough collection (although I am still scrambling right now to pick up a few more things while I can!) to play this way for the rest of my life. I think the tie to the books and movies, and the fans thereof, will be strong enough that I should be able to find willing partners indefinitely.

This does not mean I don't feel for those who want to collect their own armies or play the game using the points-match forces in pick-up games or tournament settings. Heck, if I could count of finding someone else with a LOTR/TH force at my FLGS I'd bring 500 points of miniatures with me for a quick game! I hate that GW has pretty much abandond the game and is slowly allowing it to disappear. I miss the days when they proudly claimed that LOTR was their "third core game" next to 40K and Fantasy. Of course from what I hear, Fantasy is falterning, too, so it should be no surprise they would ignore LOTR.

I just stumbled across this plastic promotional figure done for LOTR War in the North. Looks like it's about the right size for use in Tabletop (suitably rebased/repainted of course).

What the HELL is that???

Is that a Rat-Troll?

We do not approve of Rat-Trolls in Middle-earth.

It is an awesome looking mini... But he needs to leave Middle-earth. World of Warcraft phoned, and said they were missing a Rat-Troll... Maybe this is he?

MB

It looks just as hideous as the Trolls made by GW, so no big loss.

Fanbase will live on

BeAfraid wrote:
Ghengis Khan ... list of historical monsters

Ghengis Khan was a genius, and no more of a monster in his time than any other.

When uniting the tribes of the steppes, those that joined kept their religion (oh my, religious freedom!) and were in fact largely left alone, save for a tax of horses, men, and supplies. Those that resisted were largely destroyed, of course, with horses, women, and children taken (that was their way of things, of course; Ghengis' own mother was kidnapped like this).

His land campaign in China was both political and military, and was the base of a centuries-long empire. Truly, Khan is the only outsider to conquer China, even unto modern history.

Conquered much of the Indian sub-continent, and held it.

After all this, Khan sent diplomats to Persia to conduct trade negotiations. Trade! The man you list as a vile monster was attempting diplomacy! The Persians, however, beheaded the diplomats and sent them back.

It turns out that this made him a tad annoyed. In response, the Persians were given no quarter. Khan destroyed their empire, razed every city. No small feat, either: you think steppes riders (not that his army was only steppes riders by then) enjoyed trekking through modern Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc?

And, aside from simple military genius, I'd like to point out:

Unlike Hitler, Caligula, or Stalin, Ghengis Khan did NOT massacre his own people.

Did not preside over a blatantly racist empire; in fact, simply by virtue of having China and India, his empire had over half a dozen ethnicities.

Like Sequoia of the Cherokee, Khan realized that the Mongols needed a written language, ultimately borrowing the Cyrillic alphabet (though others did the bash-to-fit). Mongolia uses this alphabet even still.

Was the man a barbarian, by our ever-so-civilized standards? Most certainly. But a monster? No.

I think you might have missed the context of the reference to Genghis Khan.

The objectivity of whether he was a "monster" is very open to debate, given the status of the world at the time, and what was "common" among the various factions.

But in relation to Middle-earth, and his archetype to Christendom, he is a Monster, subjectively speaking (In the same way that the Monster under your bed is a Monster - it is an object of awe and fear, dreaded, regardless of the objective reality).

MB

I can admit that I don't care that much for LotR, I loved it as a kid but never got to deeper meanings and never cared if those were represented in the films. I like the films especialy designs and mood because I love grimdark and the more horror the better.

That said, the way the trilogy was realised is pretty much standard hollywood trash. It hammers everything into your head, THIS IS BEAUTIFUL NOW look at how wide open everybody's eyes are! THIS IS SAD, everybody's crying in slow motion. Last second saves ad nauseum. Fights are either slow to a crawl or go into chaotic mess of fast cuts where you can't see what's happening. Then there are those really bad Legolas antics, also while as I said I really enjoy the grimdark but it's quite obvious that the B class gore/ horror director never got out of PJ. In general I think that with the kind of money he had and that cast bent on selling it no matter what, he just couldn't do worse though I'm pretty sure he could do much better.

Now there's The Hobbit, it made PJs LotR trilogy apear classy, watching that I was pretty sure it's an attempt at Christopher Tolkien's life. Fun as a blockbuster ofc but man did PJ show his true colors there.

Not to mention that while I don't care for LotR books that much, I still would prefer as accurate version of the book as possible, seems pretty obvious to me that it would get us a better film. There are exceptions ofc ie The Shining but neither PJ is Kubrick nor King is Tolkien heh.

BeAfraid wrote:
When you see a film, such as To Kill a Mockingbird you will see a much more straightforward version of this disclaimer:

"The Film Adaptation of.... X"

There, you will see a very straightforward adaptation of a novel or writer's work (Such as 2001: A Space Oddysey).

This is a poor example as the novel and screenplay for 2001 were developed at the same time. Clarke and Kubrik had a difference of opinion and consequently the novel differs from the film in many repects. Note that both were expanded from the original short story "The Sentinel". So in the end there is nothing "straightforward" about this adaptation. This is more often than not the case when adapting from print to film.

When it comes to the lotr movies there is much I love and much I hate. I do believe some designs were spot on in terms of visual feel and how I would imagine certain costumes, weapons and buildings to look. We have to keep in mind that many of these were based on illustrations that lee and howe created, who are official tolkien artists for the books ( so is ted ) and have been for many years. Each person will naturally have their own perceptions of how this or that would look, and while tolkien created illustrations and paintings himself, there is many cases where full descriptions are totally lacking.

For example we know the trolls were green in the books, but we don't know what shade, we don't really know what colors the dwarfs wore, so gw coming up with some color schemes for moria, erebor and durins folk are perfectly ok since we can do the exact same, I actually like the blue gold and silver erebor dwarves gw came up with, I think jacksons dwarves ( which came out later ) are a bit too dark for my tastes, their armor was good and weapons but their color scheme does not really stand out. The perry dwarves that came out first are closer to lee's illustration of them near the end of the hobbit. This axe crap is not really accurate though as they used a lot of swords in the books and these fantasy dwarves are the first ones so all this axe and dwarf stuff after is simply the work of others, not tolkien..likewise they are not stupid or comedy relief, that is something jackson added in, just as conan is not some bonehead austrian, in the books he is quite intelligent. The murin and drar sculpts are also quite in league with dwarves from the book in looks.

The perry twins sauron the necromancer I think is one of the GW line sculpts that really fits with tolkiens middle earth ( this was based on gw's design also not jackson ), along with the plastic wood elves ( minus the potato faces ). Overall I think GW got many of their own created lotr minis correct or as correct as possible with what little description is available. Jackson I think got many costumes right, we need to understand that when tolkien wrote these books, the kinds of designs were very limited in terms of detail and dynamic visuals, things in general were more simple back then and he would have based a lot of armor off real world armor designs which again are limited other than some engraving works on royal armor and such.

I think some designs could have been a bit more in line with some of the books, but the costumes, designs, buildings and so on is not one of the things I would fault jackson for, it's one of the only things I feel the movies did some justice with. My personal gripes with jackson...is like anything hollywood touches based on books, they not only lie or change things for it to be sensational, they also have to inject their worthless political agendas into it, and regardless of what times we are living in, tolkien himself would not have approved of jackson himself nor things he has added to the movies, I am quite certain of that, tolkien was a man who had character and enough of a spine not to bow down to the times, he was horrified by the hippie scum pestering him, along with the modern world nor sympathetic towards the ultra left wing which he was aware of and opposed to with the changes in his own religion ( this can be seen in his letters book ). And jacksons pc crap has no place in tolkiens middle earth nor should that ever be injected into a FANTASY world that has been pre written.

In my sbg games all of my orcs are painted dark with red eyes and my trolls are all green, it's a fantasy world and the pc world can f itself over and over I stay true to the mans descriptions and wipe my arse with the tears of sniveling pc fools.

The hobbit movies are ok for the visuals, but they are horrible more so than the lotr movies for the things he added and outright made up, I agree with how the tolkien estate feels I don't feel everything is negative but much of it is an insult to tolkiens works.

The SBG game GW created and the minis however I feel do not tarnish tolkien himself, he also stated he was fine with people adding to the story later on, that does not make newer things official but there is some room for that, what SBG does especially well is skirmish like battles with unamed heroes, which would have gone one for thousands of years in middle earth and that is what I like to play most of all when it comes down to it, although what if scenarios can be a lot of fun and some historical battles from the books.