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I was not saying Killer Moth, Croc, and Great White's absences were plot holes, I was just expressing my disappointment that they weren't present. The plot hole remark was not connected to them, though I see the confusion.
Jason Todd being the Knight is a plot hole in my mind, because it seems to completely and utterly contradicts what Todd (as Red Hood) is, a vigilante who ultimately fights for the same side as Batman, but just doesn't agree with his non-lethal approach (feel free to correct me if I' m wrong, but that was my understanding of Red Hood). I was very disappointed, and it utterly was far too "safe" of an approach. It honestly ruined the character of Arkham Knight for me. That, and I take issue with how angsty the Knight became as you progressed through the story.
Ultimately, the game was incredibly fun, I just think the writing was a ghost of what was achieved in Asylum and City. I know it's not by the same people, but I never played Origins, so I can't comment on that. My complaints about the story are ultimately minor, this is a Batman game, and thus, feeling like the Batman universe is what's most important. So too much car and no boss fights are my complaints. The gross under-utilization of the villains included is a shame, but not a deal breaker. John Noble did an incredible job as Scarecrow.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/10 13:24:29
Kingdom Death Fanatic. Dark Eldar: Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Dark Elves: Allegiance to the Black Crown. Also, Masons, Cygnar, and Legion of Everblight. All unnamed.
Manchu wrote:
The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.
Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.
I was not saying Killer Moth, Croc, and Great White's absences were plot holes, I was just expressing my disappointment that they weren't present. The plot hole remark was not connected to them, though I see the confusion.
Jason Todd being the Knight is a plot hole in my mind, because it seems to completely and utterly contradicts what Todd (as Red Hood) is, a vigilante who ultimately fights for the same side as Batman, but just doesn't agree with his non-lethal approach (feel free to correct me if I' m wrong, but that was my understanding of Red Hood). I was very disappointed, and it utterly was far too "safe" of an approach. It honestly ruined the character of Arkham Knight for me. That, and I take issue with how angsty the Knight became as you progressed through the story.
Ultimately, the game was incredibly fun, I just think the writing was a ghost of what was achieved in Asylum and City. I know it's not by the same people, but I never played Origins, so I can't comment on that. My complaints about the story are ultimately minor, this is a Batman game, and thus, feeling like the Batman universe is what's most important. So too much car and no boss fights are my complaints. The gross under-utilization of the villains included is a shame, but not a deal breaker. John Noble did an incredible job as Scarecrow.
Okay, so. There are several important things to note in regards to important plot elements:
Spoiler:
Jason Todd's Red Hood, as a "vigilante who ultimately fights for the same side as Batman" is a very...loose understanding of the character. In the main universe--he died, and was resurrected via a Lazarus Pit. The Lazarus Pit completely unhinged his psyche and drove him crazy. I highly suggest the animated film "Under the Red Hood" if you're interested in the character.
In Arkham Knight, there are a few key parts that you come across which explain why Todd is doing what he's doing. Imagine that you were taken in and trained by the Batman. Imagine that after The Joker has done something particularly nasty("unnecessary surgery" on a kindergarten class of kids, killing them and stitching the remains together in new and "hilarious" ways, forcing the parents to fight over the bloody corpses of their children"), you go on your own and deactivate your comms to get The Joker.
Then you realize it's a trap and The Joker has taken you to torture and break as a "joke" on Batman. You're beaten, broken, branded as part of The Joker gang.
Flash forward to years later when you've been rotting in a cell in Arkham Asylum as part of "The Joker Gang", forgotten by everyone but The Joker. Who makes a point of taunting you that Batman NEVER EVEN CAME LOOKING FOR YOU!
"Sometimes villain, but most often antihero" is the way my comic friends describe Red Hood, and what I had looked into, aside from one comic arc, seemed very appropriate. I still think this implementation is damned weak writing. That, and how after a stern talking to, he's suddenly protecting Batman again. I get the "why" he became Arkham Knight, I just don't agree with that direction of the last part of the "Knight" story
I fully agree with what I saw someone has said about Arkham Knight. There are two main stories in Knight, there's Knight's story, and Scarecrow's story. Scarecrow's is pretty awesome, and Knight's is pretty weak. Opinions, ho!
Edit: As for plot holes,
Spoiler:
When/how did he escape the Asylum? Where did he get all the money for the entire militia and their billion tanks? Where did the military training come from? How did Joker fake Todd's death?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/10 16:57:28
Kingdom Death Fanatic. Dark Eldar: Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Dark Elves: Allegiance to the Black Crown. Also, Masons, Cygnar, and Legion of Everblight. All unnamed.
Manchu wrote:
The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.
Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.
I was not saying Killer Moth, Croc, and Great White's absences were plot holes, I was just expressing my disappointment that they weren't present. The plot hole remark was not connected to them, though I see the confusion.
Jason Todd being the Knight is a plot hole in my mind, because it seems to completely and utterly contradicts what Todd (as Red Hood) is, a vigilante who ultimately fights for the same side as Batman, but just doesn't agree with his non-lethal approach...
That's him in the comics though, not in the Arkham Games. The Arkham games aren't the comics, and vice versa. The Arkham Games are honestly closer to a darker more realistic version of the old animated series.
The Fragile Breath wrote: Ultimately, the game was incredibly fun, I just think the writing was a ghost of what was achieved in Asylum and City. I know it's not by the same people, but I never played Origins, so I can't comment on that. My complaints about the story are ultimately minor, this is a Batman game, and thus, feeling like the Batman universe is what's most important. So too much car and no boss fights are my complaints. The gross under-utilization of the villains included is a shame, but not a deal breaker. John Noble did an incredible job as Scarecrow.
A lot of these points I find difficult to disagree with, but for me they didn't ruin my enjoyment of the game.
Were Penguin, Two-Face and Harley under used? Yes, especially Two-Face. Azrael as well. Dude's plotline looked epic in the last game... and just kinda stops without a satisfying conclusion. Hush was just them tying loose ends, and suffered as a result (really Rocksteady, a whole side plot that is solved with literally the press of one button? C'mon!).
Was the car used too often? Yes. I love the Batmobile, and I think it's a great addition to the game, but the game could have done with about 1/2 the bomb disposal missions, and one less big tank fight would have helped. I did like the stealth tank bits, as they were a lot of fun and broke up the regular tank combat, but after you've dealt with the Arkham Knight, having to finish the militia plotline by having a tank fight against
Spoiler:
Deathstroke
was really lame.
The lack of boss fights? Arkham games have never really done good boss fights. Asylum had Harley in a tower yelling at you, Whack-a-Croc, and rinse/repeat Ivy and Joker fights. City? Hammer and Sickle weren't really bosses, just brutes. Ra's wasn't all that special. Grundy and Clayface were basically the same fight with some minor differences. Only Penguin and Mr. Freeze had some originality to them. This game wasn't that much different.
Honestly Origins has the best boss fights. The Deathstroke fight, the Lady Shiva fight, the Bane fight (the first one, the second one is an exercise in frustration, but that could be more my problem than the game's) and especially the fight with the Electrocutioner ( ) are just great. You should play Origins. It reuses a lot of concepts, the fighting in the game is slightly off (like 95% perfect, compared to the 100% of the other games), and the Riddler bits feel perfunctory/superfluous (and don't really go anywhere like the Azreal plot in Knight), but it's a really fun game. The Firefly section is amazing, the plot is good, especially how it ties into Asylum, and it has the best soundtrack of all four games.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/11 01:31:38
If you haven't got to the studios yet, then you haven't got all the Riddler trophies. Many of the games 240-ish riddles (from actual riddles, to trophies, to breakable objects, etc.) don't show up until the end of the main plot. They get added as the game goes on.
I've "cleared" Bleake Island of trophies twice now during my second play through.
I've been to the studios plenty of times. - I'm literally around 88%-ish through the game. I just gather from the interwebs that the game won't let me get the last riddle there until a specific story point.
That's him in the comics though, not in the Arkham Games. The Arkham games aren't the comics, and vice versa. The Arkham Games are honestly closer to a darker more realistic version of the old animated series.
Fair enough, I suppose. I don't know, it doesn't make it bother me any less, you know?
A lot of these points I find difficult to disagree with, but for me they didn't ruin my enjoyment of the game.
Oh, I agree. I think I gave the impression that I hated this game, which is absolutely not true. I loved the game, I just took issue with a lot of the writing and decisions, but at the end of the day, it still may be the most fun new game I've played this year.
It makes me happy to hear that it's a common gripe that they under-utilized almost every single villain they had, because that means they likely won't make that same mistake again. I always meant to play Origins, but my fiancee insisted on buying it and not letting me buy it, and she decided it was a good idea to wait to buy it until late May when I worked all the time and didn't have any chance to play it. So I'm going to finish up the side things that seem fun in Knight, and then play Origins! I'm excited, because I love Firefly and Deathstroke, I'm excited to see their fights.
Anyone else excited for the Batgirl DLC this Tuesday? Hopefully it's longer than the Harley/Red Hood story packs.
Kingdom Death Fanatic. Dark Eldar: Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Dark Elves: Allegiance to the Black Crown. Also, Masons, Cygnar, and Legion of Everblight. All unnamed.
Manchu wrote:
The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.
Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.
I'm waiting for reviews of the Batgirl DLC; if the word is there's a decent amount of content then I'll go for it, but I won't bother if there's not enough to make it worth it I won't bother.
Definitely give Origins a go, personally I think it's easily as good as City if not better. Combat isn't quite as fluid, but the plot is good, some set piece battles are absolutely awesome (Firefly) and while there's no Hamill, there's some excellent Joker stuff!
The Fragile Breath wrote: Anyone else excited for the Batgirl DLC this Tuesday? Hopefully it's longer than the Harley/Red Hood story packs.
I'd love to get it... but it ain't coming out on my platform because WB are a bunch'a witches.
Of course, the trailer did make me laugh, cause I wondered what was the purpose of the big oil rig off shore, to the left of Arkham city, with the giant Ferris Wheel on it. Now we know!
Paradigm wrote: Definitely give Origins a go, personally I think it's easily as good as City if not better. Combat isn't quite as fluid, but the plot is good, some set piece battles are absolutely awesome (Firefly) and while there's no Hamill, there's some excellent Joker stuff!
Definitely check out Origins if you haven't. It's two big weaknesses were general fatigue with a certain character (and I can't elaborate here without causing a *massive* plot spoiler; playing it now should be fine, though), and the game-wrecking bugs that affected the game at release (problems with freezes - and not the DLC boss - and other issues; I had to redo the last Bane fight twice due to an oddball bug).
The Mr. Freeze DLC is fun too.
Speaking of bugs, the fact that this was even more bug-ridden than Origins is troubling.
Apparently the same company that did the Origins pc port did the Arkham Knight port. Pure conjecture and wild guessing from me, but it wouldn't surprise me if the reason that Rocksteady / Warner Brothers were so quick to offer refunds for Arkham Knight on PC was if they had put some pretty darn hefty penalty clauses in the contract if the porters screwed up again..
Arkham Origins wasn't a great game - and there was something about the combat that was really 'off' for me. But what it did do REALLY well and the reason I would recommend the game to anyone is that it had truly some incredibly spectacular set pieces.
It's just a pity there wasn't more of them. - There was one point where I was thinking 'oh awesome, I'm only at the halfway point of the game' - It turns out it was just a tiny diversion before the finale.
Oh, look, it's just been announced that due to all the hard work they're (now) putting in to making this game work on the PC, the DLC will be delayed for the PC. At least WB is being so apologetic about doing what they should have done before release.
I wonder how this all would have turned out of Steam had not introduced its refund system yet.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Cliff's Notes on the bad:
Level design that fails to make sense for either the player or NPCs.
Removal of cancelling into counterattacks and enemy reach being less legible. Poorly scaled art assets.
More QTE-y boss fights and winning in cutscenes instead of in gameplay.
And the good:
The investigation that requires going back and forth over a VR simulation of events (and rightfully stolen for one section of Arkham Knight).
A better Gotham City than in Arkham City.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
And that's Arkham Knight finished, except for the 'Harley missions.'
And come to think of it, that probably is what bugged me about Arkham Origins. - The Arkham combat is one of my few real 'skills' in any computer games ever (though still never pulled off a perfect freeflow with every ability), but my combos were constantly being interrupted by a random punch in the back of the head.
Lots of spoiler-ey question and comments time now that I've finished the game.
Spoiler:
Were there any real 'choices' in the game? Or were they all 'fake' choices?
If you're the policeman at the start, what happens if you do shoot someone?
Can Batman actually attack the 'real' Scarecrow on Stagg's airship?
What happens if Azrael picks up the sword and attacks Bruce, as opposed to just leaving? - This did seem very unresolved. I think it would have helped if maybe the 100% ending did make it explicit, say, that Azrael was now Batman... Apparently there's DLC set after the ending though, so....
I've not played the 'red hood' edition, but I can't help but think that the very existence of it was a dead giveaway.
I also think the game made a bit of a booboo by only introducing Jason Todd in this one. Even if I hadn't accidentally spoilered myself, the only thing that had really made an argument against him being the Knight was 'Jason Todd hadn't existed in the games so far...' Then, of course, shortly after that, he was there in hallucinogenic form. Kinda sealed the deal.
I don't know what I was expecting with the ending, but I figured a 100% ending would have some sort of Mass Effect 2 ish type thing where you had a succession of your heroes and allies turning up to help you through a series of ending situations. - Though it was suitable that the Arkham Knight helped at the end.
Kinda sad there were no hints in the game about Talia being alive. - I almost expected there to be a subplot about her and Damien around, since that's the story they're pushing right now in the animated movies. - I might have missed something though, there was hints that Ra's Al Ghul was still live and kicking in one of the 'Arkham City stories.'
Other things, the game needed more Matt Mercer Robin.
And yeah, I've gotta agree, too much batmobile, though I liked some of the Riddler puzzles involving it. - Gotta say though, I found a lot of the Arkham City ones to be harder than this
So... Rocksteady's next project...
Spoiler:
It's gotta be a Superman game, right? Not only was Lexcorp everywhere in the game, but you even get a phone call from Luthor himself and near the end of the game, the thugs started talking about 'the only thing missing tonight is that flying freak from Metropolis showing up.'
I definitely think there might be another DC game in the works from Rocksteady. The references to Lex/Supes/Arrow/Canary and a whole ton of dialogue suggest to me that they're going for something a little bigger next...
Thug dialogue:
Spoiler:
'So want now?'
'I think we leave Gotham for a while.'
'Yeah, but it's been good to us.'
'All we need now is that freak from metropolis to fly in!'
'Come on, pay up. You said Batman was an alien from a dead planet!'
'But... I'm sure I've seen that somewhere!'
There's a phone message from Superman of all people that says Batman's needed in Metropolis as well.
Could just be wishful thinking, but what I wouldn't give for an open-world, multi-character Justice League game from game in the style of Arkham!
20% of Riddler Trophies done, this could take a while!
Compel wrote: Apparently the same company that did the Origins pc port did the Arkham Knight port. Pure conjecture and wild guessing from me, but it wouldn't surprise me if the reason that Rocksteady / Warner Brothers were so quick to offer refunds for Arkham Knight on PC was if they had put some pretty darn hefty penalty clauses in the contract if the porters screwed up again.
I played Origins on the 360. So the PC port wasn't responsible for them...
Compel wrote: Apparently the same company that did the Origins pc port did the Arkham Knight port. Pure conjecture and wild guessing from me, but it wouldn't surprise me if the reason that Rocksteady / Warner Brothers were so quick to offer refunds for Arkham Knight on PC was if they had put some pretty darn hefty penalty clauses in the contract if the porters screwed up again.
I played Origins on the 360. So the PC port wasn't responsible for them...
And it isn't WB offering the refunds, either. It's Steam offering the refunds, because Steam just started a refund policy about a month ago. Now that it is actually hurting WB's profits they suddenly care about making the PC version work. In case people have forgotten, when Origins came out with all of its PC problems, WB decided they didn't care and prioritized DLC before problem fixing.
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
I agree with my fiancee, Rocksteady should really do a Sirens of Gotham game (Harley, Ivy, Catwoman, for those who don't know) or a Suicide Squad game. I hate Superman, so I'm going to be bummed if their next series is him. Speaking of the random messages to your phone, I guess one of them was Batwoman, that's pretty neat.
Spoiler:
One thing that really bothered me is that Troy Baker voiced Tim Drake in City, and in this game, he voices Todd while Mercer voices Drake. Grr. I hate when they change voice actors (except for John Noble, he was fantastic), especially when the person is still voicing someone else in the game!
Kingdom Death Fanatic. Dark Eldar: Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Dark Elves: Allegiance to the Black Crown. Also, Masons, Cygnar, and Legion of Everblight. All unnamed.
Manchu wrote:
The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.
Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.
Have I not bitched incessantly about that here? That's not me being snarky (a rare moment!) I just legitimately don't know if I've posted my grumbling frustration over that. The new Oracle is okay, but much weaker than the previous Oracle.
I like Mike's voice, but it doesn't fit Jim Gordon, not one bit.
Kingdom Death Fanatic. Dark Eldar: Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Dark Elves: Allegiance to the Black Crown. Also, Masons, Cygnar, and Legion of Everblight. All unnamed.
Manchu wrote:
The Fragile Breath wrote: . . . something but I was distracted by the username.
Holy gak that is an awesome username. Please tell me your army is called Kabal of the Fragile Breath. Morathi's Darkest Sin has some competition here for best handle, I think.
Kanluwen wrote: If Rocksteady does any kind of game for DC next, I want a Green Arrow game.
Would be awesome, especially if it were based on TV rather than comic Arrow (and kept the bones of the Arkham mechanics). I'd really like to see a multi-character game, though, as that could be a lot more fun/replayable than all-Batman-all-the-time! Not that I have anything against Batman, but a game where you could switch between him and various other characters at will rather than specific scenes would be so awesome.
Kanluwen wrote: If Rocksteady does any kind of game for DC next, I want a Green Arrow game.
Would be awesome, especially if it were based on TV rather than comic Arrow (and kept the bones of the Arkham mechanics). I'd really like to see a multi-character game, though, as that could be a lot more fun/replayable than all-Batman-all-the-time! Not that I have anything against Batman, but a game where you could switch between him and various other characters at will rather than specific scenes would be so awesome.
Or, just give me a whole game as Nightwing!
If they were to do one, I'd rather they not go with the TV show.
Part of what has made the Arkham games so successful is that they are their own universe, with some divergences from the comics/film.
Paradigm wrote: Yeah, I meant stylistically rather than an actual game of the series. More 'Batman with a Bow' than '21st Century Pantomime Robin Hood', basically.
I'd suggest you pick up a couple of the New 52 runs of "Green Arrow". Grab the trade paperback volumes "The Midas Touch"(volume 1), "Triple Threat"(volume 2), and "Harrow"(volume 3) to get an idea as to where they'd likely go with the character.
Never heard of him until I kicked his ass last night. He's up there with Zasz as most disturbing Bat-villians, mainly as they are "normal" dudes that could exist in real life.
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
) are just great. You should play Origins. It reuses a lot of concepts, the fighting in the game is slightly off (like 95% perfect, compared to the 100% of the other games), and the Riddler bits feel perfunctory/superfluous (and don't really go anywhere like the Azreal plot in Knight), but it's a really fun game. The Firefly section is amazing, the plot is good, especially how it ties into Asylum, and it has the best soundtrack of all four games.
