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I say this as a guy who loves shuriken weapons...but why for the same cost would you ever take the shuriken cannon over a scatter laser?

The only edge the SC has is bladestorm, which against the superior range and extra shot of the SL just doesn't seem to give it the same value.

Maybe there's something in the new codex we don't know yet or I'm missing something. What do you guys think? Sometime talk me into using shuriken cannons.

Because GW has...problems...writing rules? The only reason to use Shuri-cans is because you already have the models assembled with them.

Or because you use vypers and like having two of the same weapons, or your using the windrider host formation and want to use the shred ability, or your waveserpent that is dropping off Fire Dragons or Wraithguard is already going to be close to the enemy so the range doesn't matter and you think the chance at the ap 2 wound is worth losing the extra shot.

It really comes down to situation and play style and if you don't think that the cannons are worth using over the lasers then no one is going to be able to talk you into it.

Edit: I didn't really read the title and was mostly going off cannon vs lasers in general. Though the windrider host formation point still stands as does my final thoughts.

Yeah I just mran on the new jetbikes. Traditionally the shuriken cannons were 5 or so points less. Even 2 points less would be enough for me to take them over scatter lasers...but for the same price I just don't get it.

Just picked up a box of the new jetbikes, building them now. Which weapon should I put on them for TAC purposes? The army as a whole is going to use a Farseer with two units of jetbikes and then the Wraithhost formation.

I would prefer cannons....just for the Eldar aesthetic.....the shuriken is a standard weapon. Bladestorm does make it "appear" to be more scary vs 2+ saves etc.

Probably the scatter lasers man. Especially since your wraith host will need volume of fire at range to back it up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bullyboy I want to take them 90% because they look cool but I dont know if I can reconcile it wit the rules.

A unit of 6 Shu Cannon Windriders in the new formation would half kill a wraithknight. Thus if you find a need to make the windrider units capable of tackling MC, GMC, and 2+ saves in trade off for some anti light vehicle and infantry ability then it can be well worthwhile.

The cannons have 1 point better AP, and 18%(EDIT: Oops, 16.66% - Math off the top of my head FTL.) of their hits are pseudo rending AP2 shots.

With the AP5 instead of AP6, I'd say the range difference is really the only reason to take the laser over the cannon. The slightly better AP + Rending is compelling enough for me to consider going with the shorter range cannons. With 12" moves, turbo-boost, and JSJ, I think 24 inches is plenty of range for jetbike weapons.

Hmmm... I'm not sure then! I'm going to be using just two groups of three just for mobile scoring.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The cannons have 1 point better AP, and 18%(EDIT: Oops, 16.66% - Math off the top of my head FTL.) of their hits are pseudo rending AP2 shots.

With the AP5 instead of AP6, I'd say the range difference is really the only reason to take the laser over the cannon. The slightly better AP + Rending is compelling enough for me to consider going with the shorter range cannons. With 12" moves, turbo-boost, and JSJ, I think 24 inches is plenty of range for jetbike weapons.

depends on what you are hitting

Against T4 or less, only 1/5 wounds will ignore armor
Against T6 1/3 of the wounds will ignore armor
T7 half the wounds
T8 all the wounds


Usually the extra shots is better, but against T6 with a 2+ save or T7 or better with a 3+ the cannon pulls ahead. Of course you also lose the range.

Doomface81 wrote:
I say this as a guy who loves shuriken weapons...but why for the same cost would you ever take the shuriken cannon over a scatter laser?

The only edge the SC has is bladestorm, which against the superior range and extra shot of the SL just doesn't seem to give it the same value.

Maybe there's something in the new codex we don't know yet or I'm missing something. What do you guys think? Sometime talk me into using shuriken cannons.

Shuriken Cannons are better against:
T3 5+ (Infantry Platoon)
T4 5+ (Reavers)
T5 5+ (Flak armour Ogryn Brutes)
T3 3+ (Power Armor Acolyte)
MEQ
(F)MCs
T7 3+ (Talos)
T8 3+ (Wraithlords/knights)
T3 2+ (Terminator Inquisitor)
TEQ
T5 2+ (Bike Captain with Artificer Armor)
T6 2+ (Riptide)

If you're battling different stuff than these, Lasers are better.

I use mine to escort Farseers in a Freakshow list, and the range of their powers mean the cannons are going to be within 24" anyway. I will prolly go with cannons.

The new jetbike formation gives the shuriken cannons shred for one turn.

Shred on something with pseudo-rending that hits on 3+ is very powerful.

One thing people miss out on when statistically comparing scatter lasers and cannons is what effect the range increase actually has. As soon as the scatter laser gets one extra round of shooting vs anything below T5 with a 2+ or T7 with a 3+, the scatters come out on top. Even more so if they get several more rounds. It also applies if you lose bikes before your second round of shooting - 30 shuriken cannon shots might beat 40 scatter ones, but 24 will not (I.e. squad of five losing two to return fire, shooting over two turns.). That is the prime reason to take scatter lasers over shuriken cannons - you get to shoot more and take less losses.

My second reason for preferring scatter lasers is that as , eldar you can get plenty of ap2 elsewhere. For example, 6 FW hornets put out 24 S8ap2 shots a turn at 48". The WK and wraith guard are other great choices, as are bright lance war walkers etc. Thus I'd rather get S6 VoF from my bikes and have other units specialize at ignoring armour.

All those compelling pro shuriken cannon posts and then...exactly

If we're throwing out things that happen in game such as casualties and what not you should also consider that cannons are extremely better when rolling 6's. Mathhammer is nice but it won't take into consideration the extra turns of shooting or the that turn when you tell statistics to go away and end up getting 15 out of 30 6's when actually playing the game. That being said the same is true when you don't get many 6's at all through the game and the lasers with there +1 shot and +12" would have been better. Like I said in my first post It really comes down to situation and play style.

Yeah. The range is only beneficial if you're hugging board edges and playing the backfield. If your strategy requires aggressive advancement, the range stops being a benefit.

My strategy would be for every 2 windrider unit (scatter laser), to 1 unit with Shur cannon.

This is GW, that's why. Look at the Tau codex. Previously the secondary weapon for the Hammerhead was a Smart Missile System, or TWO burst cannons. The SMS costed more, but it had twin link, more range, and did not need line of sight. The two burst cannons were the base secondary weapon, less range, but more shots, and could fire at separate targets (with the right vehicle gear).

Now look at those options for the new codex. SMS or a single, twin linked, burst canon. Same cost (free). Same number of shots. Both twin linked. Same damage profile. But the SMS has more range and ignores cover. Why on earth (or in space) would anyone choose the TLBC?

Sometimes things like this just fall through the cracks because GW doesn't spend even more time playtesting, scrutinizing, and editing than they already do.

I definitely wouldn't mix and match. But each has its advantages.

Light vehicles and GEQ? SL wins.
MEQ/TEQ? SC wins, if range isn't a problem.

Its shocking that they are the same price, but the SC does have uses, even without the formation bonus.

Noctem wrote:
Hmmm... I'm not sure then! I'm going to be using just two groups of three just for mobile scoring.

If they are solely for scoring, then maybe running them naked (catapults) is best?

 Jimsolo wrote:
Yeah. The range is only beneficial if you're hugging board edges and playing the backfield. If your strategy requires aggressive advancement, the range stops being a benefit.

Why would you need to do that when you can win from 36" away and then turbo to all the empty objectives?

 Vector Strike wrote:


Shuriken Cannons are better against:
T3 5+ (Infantry Platoon)
T4 5+ (Reavers)
T5 5+ (Flak armour Ogryn Brutes)
T3 3+ (Power Armor Acolyte)
MEQ
(F)MCs
T7 3+ (Talos)
T8 3+ (Wraithlords/knights)
T3 2+ (Terminator Inquisitor)
TEQ
T5 2+ (Bike Captain with Artificer Armor)
T6 2+ (Riptide)

If you're battling different stuff than these, Lasers are better.

Good list. I'd say that those units and their equivalents are by far the majority of units in the game. The SL has an advantage over the SC in basically 2 spots: Light vehicles and T-shirt saves(6+) on models T8 and below.

Bharring wrote:

Light vehicles and GEQ? SL wins.

Actually, SC wins vs GEQ because of the 5+ armor vs. AP 5.

I will probably go for mostly Shuriken Cannons because IMO the bladestorm AP is more important than range in this edition.
We face more and more monsters (wraithknights), T5 (bikes) and 2+ armour against which every little bit of a chance helps.

Furthermore. If you jink, you only hit on 6s which combines very well with bladestorm and a re-roll-to-hit from a warlock.
Anything that hits will be AP2 as well.
Or am i making a thinking error here?

Its 6-to-wound for bladestorm, not 6-to-hit.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Actually, SC wins vs GEQ because of the 5+ armor vs. AP 5.

Why do people keep saying there is a difference between AP5 & AP6? A 5+ cover save is the same vs either, and lets be honest, if something with only a 5+ armour ISNT in cover, you wont need the AP5 to erase it.

Therefore, I would say that the Scatterlaser is still better against anything with a 5+ armour, since cover is a thing.

However, I do think that the Shuricannon has a good place on bikes. I will be fielding 3 units: 2 units having Scatters to hug the flanks and shot from afar, but 1 unit with Shuricannons in midfield to deal with "harder" targets.

Take both (in different units).
You wont be able to keep all your bikes at 36" to 48" away (shoot and scoot), and if some have to be closer, you might as well have some shuriken cannons.

Another thing that you don't want to under estimate; shuriken cannons makes 2 wound pools. That might give you some flexibility.

 Galef wrote:

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

Actually, SC wins vs GEQ because of the 5+ armor vs. AP 5.

Why do people keep saying there is a difference between AP5 & AP6? A 5+ cover save is the same vs either, and lets be honest, if something with only a 5+ armour ISNT in cover, you wont need the AP5 to erase it.

Therefore, I would say that the Scatterlaser is still better against anything with a 5+ armour, since cover is a thing.

However, I do think that the Shuricannon has a good place on bikes. I will be fielding 3 units: 2 units having Scatters to hug the flanks and shot from afar, but 1 unit with Shuricannons in midfield to deal with "harder" targets.

All of these stats assume no cover and no invulnerable save, which isn't something you are likely to encounter every often.

Meq in 5+ cover, you would be better with a scatter laser
TH/SS in the open, you would be better with a scatter laser

33% more shots, vs some of the shots are AP2. AP2 doesnt go through cover or invuln saves.

i don't play craftworld eldar, but I do play Dark Eldar. The range difference is massively important and easily makes the scatter laser generically better.

Venom have a 36 inch range which usually nullifies small arms fire. Even though its only av 10 they have to shoot real anti tank weapons at it to kill it usually,

When you apply this to Eldar jetbikes, and their assault move it makes them very survivable. In many list they will have to use long range weapons that have limited shots to overkill individual bikes because you should be able to use the bikes mobility to avoid most other threats. This can be compounded by bringing them in from reserve instead of starting them on the board.