Police Driver Acquitted RE: Freddie Gray

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**CptJake**

Soldier as a Victim meets Soldier as a Psycho, coming soon to a police force near you.

But what about the actual PTSD symptoms? What are they, and do they typically include violent behaviors, like murder?

Simply put, PTSD is “fear” based, not “aggression” based. The DSM-IV-R (Diagnostic Statistical Manual, Revised) is clear. In brief, the primary features of the this illness are:

· flashbacks
· withdrawal
· numbing
· hyperarousal
· and isolation.

Violence is not included. In fact, not one single research study exists linking violent behavior with the diagnosis of PTSD. While, anger and agitation are common symptoms of PTSD, these feelings tend to be turned inward, contributing to making it the terribly painful disorder it is. Combined with depression, it is not unusual for the sufferer to become suicidal. But a diagnosis of PTSD, in itself, does not make a person violent towards others. Again, the concern should be more that they will be a danger to themselves, not others. There is a possibility, of course, that unintentional harm could come to others as the result of a suicide attempt, not only by gunshot, but though an intentional automobile accident, jumping from a building, or any other number of self-destructive acts. John Violanti, Ph.D., in his book, “Police Suicide: Epidemic in Blue,” points out the interesting phenomenon of “suicide by suspect,” in which an officer consciously or unconsciously wishes to die and willfully involves himself in situations of extreme danger or confrontation with a criminal, thereby increasing the risk of death. Even so, in these situations the danger to others is indirect and unintentional.

The unfortunate result of this misinformation is that more and more cases are erroneously using the defense that PTSD is to blame for murders by veterans when, in fact, there were other emotional disorders and problems involved, including prior anger issues, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI), and substance abuse, that were more likely responsible for the individual’s violent behavior. Society already views the mentally ill as "dangerous"--we need to be very careful not to further stigmatize these people via this illness by suggesting that a violent/murderous potential exists or was the primary factor until everything has been examined.

http://www.policesuicidestudy.com/id13.html

**nels1031**

BlaxicanX wrote:
nels1031 wrote:
thoroughly innacurate and debunked "broken soldier" stereotype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_veteran_suicide

What are you trying to prove with that link? Use your words like a big boy, champ.

All it does is prove that veterans with mental health issues focus their violence inwards, rather than outwards towards the general population, like nkelsch and the reporter who made those idiotic comments think.

**CptJake**

Jihadin wrote:
BlaxicanX wrote:
nels1031 wrote:
thoroughly innacurate and debunked "broken soldier" stereotype
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_veteran_suicide

I do not even have to click on the link..(if it worked ).....OIF/OEF vets are opting themselves out more then (like 10 a week or something) then opting someone else out.

They've actually found that most opting themselves out are not combat vets, but more likely are guys who have been chaptered out.

Rather, the study found that the military group at highest risk for suicide are soldiers who served in the military for less than a full enlistment.

In fact, the suicide rate among those who served less than a year was 2.5 times the active-duty rate, according to the research.

And the rate remained extremely high among those who served less than three years.

...

Why are these people at higher risk, we don't have data to explain it," said Mark Reger, study lead author and deputy director of T2.

But the authors did speculate, based on previous research on why people commit suicide, that problems such as injury, a legal issue or mental health conditions that might force a person out of the military could contribute to suicidal behavior.

Or, the transition itself — the loss of identity, difficulty developing a new social support system, difficulty trying to find meaningful work after service, a sense that they are a burden or that they don't fit into civilian society -- could play a role.

"Additional research is needed to clarify what the circumstances are surrounding early discharges and how these factors may be related to suicide," the authors wrote.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/04/02/suicide-troops-veterans-combat-study/70842540/

Link to the study mentioned in that article: http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2211891

From there:

Results Deployment was not associated with the rate of suicide (hazard ratio, 0.96; 99% CI, 0.87-1.05). There was an increased rate of suicide associated with separation from military service (hazard ratio, 1.63; 99% CI, 1.50-1.77), regardless of whether service members had deployed or not. Rates of suicide were also elevated for service members who separated with less than 4 years of military service or who did not separate with an honorable discharge.

Conclusions and Relevance Findings do not support an association between deployment and suicide mortality in this cohort. Early military separation (<4 years) and discharge that is not honorable were suicide risk factors.

**Jihadin**

Talk about paratrooper and look what pops on TV.....

He got what sounds like a 14/14 and they tacked on 12 more days to his punishment. Last jump in the 82nd

Edit

Pet fish

Quite a few of us back in the day had jump buddies.....mine was a stuff frog

**Co'tor Shas**

That's kind of adorable.

**nkelsch**

nels1031 wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
Considering one of the major defenses for Police Misconduct and excessive force is PTSD, I do think there should be some level of scrutiny applied to *ANYONE* Military or otherwise who tries to be a police officer who has been the target of live fire or deadly force.

I've never heard of PTSD used as an excuse for police misconduct, can you give me a few references please. I'd love to read them if they exist.

Also, do you think PTSD is only triggered by being in combat?

**nels1031**

Got another one? Thats one case and you said its a "major defense" there must be others.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Jihadin wrote:
Talk about paratrooper and look what pops on TV.....

Spoiler:

He got what sounds like a 14/14 and they tacked on 12 more days to his punishment. Last jump in the 82nd

Edit

Pet fish

Quite a few of us back in the day had jump buddies.....mine was a stuff frog

What exactly did they charge him with?

**Ensis Ferrae**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

What exactly did they charge him with?

From what I've read it's kind of a "general misconduct", failure to follow unit standards/ SOP and that sort of thing... I think there was something about endangering others in there as well.

I mean, it's an Article 15, so there's no record of it beyond his military service... he doesn't get put on any "List" that people can search on the internet (aside from maybe the Skippy list?) or have to report it on any Resume, etc.

**dogma**

nels1031 wrote:

Can you elaborate on why you feel it wasn't inflammatory?

"...but some of them are coming back from war...they don't know the communities, and they're ready to do battle." is inflammatory? I don't think so. Though I'm more interested in why you believe it was, negative arguments being impossible to make.

**nels1031**

I find it inflammatory because the comment was baseless and without evidence.

**NuggzTheNinja**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:

What exactly did they charge him with?

From what I've read it's kind of a "general misconduct", failure to follow unit standards/ SOP and that sort of thing... I think there was something about endangering others in there as well.

I mean, it's an Article 15, so there's no record of it beyond his military service... he doesn't get put on any "List" that people can search on the internet (aside from maybe the Skippy list?) or have to report it on any Resume, etc.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully he thinks it was worth it, because it was a pretty cool pic!

**Ahtman**

That fish is the hero we need.

**Jihadin**

NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
NuggzTheNinja wrote:

What exactly did they charge him with?

From what I've read it's kind of a "general misconduct", failure to follow unit standards/ SOP and that sort of thing... I think there was something about endangering others in there as well.

I mean, it's an Article 15, so there's no record of it beyond his military service... he doesn't get put on any "List" that people can search on the internet (aside from maybe the Skippy list?) or have to report it on any Resume, etc.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully he thinks it was worth it, because it was a pretty cool pic!

No one out ranks Safety.

We jump from 800ft. So he was a hazard to himself and others. Being focused on taking a selfie of him and a pet fish. He just sweeping the barracks for a couple more days then busting sweat on extra duty

No Beta was harmed on this jump

**dogma**

nels1031 wrote:
I find it inflammatory because the comment was baseless and without evidence.

It was a comment made in the course of an interview, to expect the presentation of evidence in such a context is mad; the use of the word "some" takes care of everything else.

You're looking for a reason to be offended, that's all.

**nels1031**

Nah, not particularly offended, just disappointed to see veterans needlessly interjected into a debate about decades of police misconduct that led up to the riots.

**d-usa**

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/05/01/403496063/freddie-gray-update-new-speculation-on-his-death-and-peaceful-protests?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20150501

**daedalus**

Oh snap!

**jasper76**

Depraved-heart murder...I had to look it up.

**nkelsch**

The investigation by the prosecutor's office found there had been no reason to detain Gray — and that his arrest was in itself illegal, Mosby said. She said the knife that police officers found on Gray turned out to be legal.

I also assume the reason everyone is charged with manslaughter is due to knowledge of the 'rough ride' protocol and failure to step in and stop it. Basically even though the officers who did an illegal arrest didn't directly cause his death, the illegal arrest and knowledge of the 'rough ride' meant they are liable for it.

This is the stuff of Jack McCoy right here...

And Screw the police union. "independent prosecutor" is code for someone they can control and can cover up or will pull punches. DAs are supposed to have ties to the community and are SUPPOSED to look out for their citizens. So I am fine with Mosby and her background and her ties to the community.

**Kanluwen**

Amen Nkelsch.

**KiloFiX**

Wait, a "rough ride" killed him? How?

Could the charges just be scapegoating given the riots?

Am not speculating one way or another but there's still lack of details.

**nkelsch**

KiloFiX wrote:
Wait, a "rough ride" killed him? How?

Could the charges just be scapegoating given the riots?

Am not speculating one way or another but there's still lack of details.

Considering two other people in Baltimore have had spinal injuries and been paralyzed due to a "rough ride" and it is virtually impossible to stabilize yourself when unsecured in the back of a van without using your arms, Yes, a "Rough Ride" can totally kill him. Often it is worse damage than an actual beating and the police know this which is why they do it as you can cause a perp a ton of harm without having to actually touch them.

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/2015/04/24/baltimores-history-of-police-van-injuries/26342051/

The charges seem totally legit, at least for the Van driver... who will probably claim he was 'told to' and 'everyone does it'. The rest will probably try to plea out for cooperation of institutional corruption. The police had actually updated the policy for 'securing passengers' just 8 days before the incident so it was a known issue which was officially pointed out to officers what not to do.

**Grey Templar**

KiloFiX wrote:
Wait, a "rough ride" killed him? How?

Could the charges just be scapegoating given the riots?

Am not speculating one way or another but there's still lack of details.

I'm not an expert on law, but I imagine the defense could certainly play the "he's only getting charged to stop the rioting" angle and get the officer at least a lighter sentence. Thats why the rioting is bad for justice as appeasing the mob and submitting to mob rule is wrong, even if the charges are totally justified. Which I do think is the case, but the rioting doesn't help anything.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

It's also not helping the officers that the investigation turned up a stop (via aprivate CCTV recording) that none of them admitted to the van having made.

The police have not given any further details of it yet, but given the officers not mentioning it, it looks like it might be a 'oops guys he's bounced around so much he's no longer moving pause' or potentially even a direct intervention/attack by one or more of them,

**Relapse**

KiloFiX wrote:
Wait, a "rough ride" killed him? How?

Could the charges just be scapegoating given the riots?

Am not speculating one way or another but there's still lack of details.

Figure that being bounced around in a metal box that has edges(seats, etc.) could easily cause someone harm.

**Ouze**

I'm surprised to see appropriate charges filed - as they all clammed up I thought it would be pretty difficult to file charges.

**Jihadin**

Ouze wrote:
I'm surprised to see appropriate charges filed - as they all clammed up I thought it would be pretty difficult to file charges.

Now to see which charges actually "stick" to any of the officers. Its seems to "Shotgun blast" of an approach.

**Goliath**

Jihadin wrote:
Ouze wrote:
I'm surprised to see appropriate charges filed - as they all clammed up I thought it would be pretty difficult to file charges.

Now to see which charges actually "stick" to any of the officers. Its seems to "Shotgun blast" of an approach.

How so? They've actually got different charges for the different officers, so one would assume that they're fairly certain about them.

NPR wrote:
Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr.: Second degree depraved heart murder; involuntary manslaughter; second degree assault; manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence); manslaughter by vehicle (criminal negligence); misconduct in office

Officer William G. Porter: Involuntary manslaughter; second degree assault; misconduct in office

Lt. Brian W. Rice: Involuntary manslaughter; two counts of second degree assault; manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence); two counts of misconduct in office; false imprisonment

Officer Edward M. Nero: Two counts of second degree assault; manslaughter by vehicle (gross negligence); two counts of misconduct in office; false imprisonment

Officer Garrett E. Miller: Two counts of second degree assault; two counts of misconduct in office; false imprisonment

Sgt. Alicia D. White: Involuntary manslaughter; second degree assault; misconduct in office

**nkelsch**

Article outlining each officers involvement and shows at which points they knew something was wrong and should have either stopped the incident, followed proper procedure or obtained medical help.

Looks like the highest ranking one had mental health issues and had been hospitalized for them at some point and had to have his guns confiscated.

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2015/05/a-look-at-the-6-officers-charged-in-freddie-gray-s-death-113655.html