Making GW change

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**Grimtuff**

Talys wrote:

Now, specifically Games Workshop: I disagree with the characterization that they have a poor attitude towards me. I've emailed both the White Dwarf guys and Customer Service, and always gotten a pleasant, human response, and even carried a conversation via email. I would actually say that Games Workshop treats me better than most companies that aren't local small businesses treat me. Certainly as well as I would expect any multimillion dollar company that's located halfway around the world would.

I suggest you do your homework and read up on several things GW have said about their customers, either behind closed doors or in a court of law.

The latter has brought about the fact GW see the hobby as simply "Buying GW products". So, yeah...

**Talys**

Grimtuff wrote:
Talys wrote:

Now, specifically Games Workshop: I disagree with the characterization that they have a poor attitude towards me. I've emailed both the White Dwarf guys and Customer Service, and always gotten a pleasant, human response, and even carried a conversation via email. I would actually say that Games Workshop treats me better than most companies that aren't local small businesses treat me. Certainly as well as I would expect any multimillion dollar company that's located halfway around the world would.

I suggest you do your homework and read up on several things GW have said about their customers, either behind closed doors or in a court of law.

The latter has brought about the fact GW see the hobby as simply "Buying GW products". So, yeah...

How do you think other multinational, multimillion dollar companies think of you? But regardless, I judge a company by how the *actually* treat me -- ie when I contact them -- rather than a snippet of something in a legal proceeding. Do you think Universal Pictures, at a corporate level, sees you as anything other than movie tickets and advertising dollars? On the other hand, if you call them, you'll get someone pleasant on the phone.

I might not like their answers, but (a) they always answer me, (b) with a real person and (c) and politely, intelligently and often in good humor. All I can ask for, from a company, man.

I can't even get this out of my cell phone company. Call... robot woman... hold...... 30 mintues later ... hold... 30 mintues later... "would you like us to call you back?". Followed by useless CSR in India who is reading from a flowchart, takes my comments and throws them in the garbage.

**Azreal13**

Talys wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
I don't think you're in a position to judge that dude.

Did you mean me? That I'm not in a position to judge whether I (or jah, for example), is a sucker?

That seems like an odd thing to say, as it's just a matter of opinion.

Yeah, it's an opinion that one isn't really in a position to make a call on for oneself.

I very much doubt anyone considers themselves a sucker.

Talys wrote:[I judge a company by how the *actually* treat me

That's a really, really bad metric. You mean you'd heartily endorse "Dirty Bombs R Us" as long as they had good CSRs on the phone and replying to emails?

**Talys**

Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, it's an opinion that one isn't really in a position to make a call on for oneself.

I very much doubt anyone considers themselves a sucker.

I do consider that I'm a sucker for liking Reece's Peanut Butter Cups, because they keep shrinking them every year, and I keep bitching about it, but I keep buying them. And I'm a sucker for getting my car washed by donation folks, because I'll do it even when my car is perfectly clean, and I'm a sucker for giving kids who knock on my door money for chocolates and cookies that I'll never eat. Not so much spending money on miniatures that I really enjoy.

But anyways, there's no point in arguing this, so I'll just disagree with you and leave it at that

Azreal13 wrote:
That's a really, really bad metric. You mean you'd heartily endorse "Dirty Bombs R Us" as long as they had good CSRs on the phone and replying to emails?

That's a terrible comparison, because I wouldn't want the original, illegal product is intended to kill innocent people and would at best land the purchaser in a 7x10 cell for the rest of their life.

Give me an example of something that can actually be sold, and that I might actually want to buy, and let's have a debate about it. I think girl scout cookies are as good an example as anything else. I am almost 100% guaranteed to be a sucker by buying them even though I'll just toss them in the food donation bin; even though they cost five times more than a box of cookies at a grocery store; and even though I don't like cookies!

Another example might be British Petroleum: they probably have great customer service and great PR, but they're probably not a great company, at least not to the environment. However, other than the oil spill a few years back (the Deepwater Horizon) I actually know not that much about them, so I won't rush to a judgment.

**Pacific**

Talys wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Talys wrote:

Now, specifically Games Workshop: I disagree with the characterization that they have a poor attitude towards me. I've emailed both the White Dwarf guys and Customer Service, and always gotten a pleasant, human response, and even carried a conversation via email. I would actually say that Games Workshop treats me better than most companies that aren't local small businesses treat me. Certainly as well as I would expect any multimillion dollar company that's located halfway around the world would.

I suggest you do your homework and read up on several things GW have said about their customers, either behind closed doors or in a court of law.

The latter has brought about the fact GW see the hobby as simply "Buying GW products". So, yeah...

How do you think other multinational, multimillion dollar companies think of you? But regardless, I judge a company by how the *actually* treat me -- ie when I contact them -- rather than a snippet of something in a legal proceeding. Do you think Universal Pictures, at a corporate level, sees you as anything other than movie tickets and advertising dollars? On the other hand, if you call them, you'll get someone pleasant on the phone.

I might not like their answers, but (a) they always answer me, (b) with a real person and (c) and politely, intelligently and often in good humor. All I can ask for, from a company, man.

I can't even get this out of my cell phone company. Call... robot woman... hold...... 30 mintues later ... hold... 30 mintues later... "would you like us to call you back?". Followed by useless CSR in India who is reading from a flowchart, takes my comments and throws them in the garbage.

I think what he was trying to point out wasn't at the customer services people that work on the telephones (obviously they are paid to do a job, and GW get plus points for allocating enough resources for them to do it effectively) but at the executive/management level.

I have read (and actually heard for that matter) several pretty appalling comments from both my time working for GW and from other people I know that worked there. I would never repeat it in a public forum, suffice to say that the punter that comes into their shops is not exactly held in high regard.

You mention Universal Pictures, I agree there are probably a lot of corporations that regard their customers in the same way. The difference is that the wargaming and miniature industry is still pretty small fry, and has always been very personable. That whole 'answerable to share-holders, screw the rule balance it might impact kit sales by 10%' attitude just seems ugly and out of place in such a small industry. And especially while there are so many other companies that do care about putting out quality products, listen to their customer feedback, try and make better games. Without everything having to go through a filter of sales departments and hardline price/cost ratios.

I think it's something that a lot of, certainly the more veteran, customers feel and you certainly start to pick up on once you have been around for a while. Of course, like everything else, it bothers people to either a greater or lesser extent.

**Aesop the God Awful**

Talys wrote:
Do some of their rules infuriate me? YES. Do I wish some of the products cost les? YES! But you know what, I don't think it's because they don't hear the noise from the crowd, I think it's because they want the game a different way. Just because they don't do what I want doesn't mean they aren't listening to me, it just means they disagree.

They have explicitly said that they do, in fact, not listen.

Talys wrote:
I do consider that I'm a sucker for liking Reece's Peanut Butter Cups, because they keep shrinking them every year, and I keep bitching about it, but I keep buying them.

How is this different from Games Workshop? Apart from that you're not bitching about it, of course.

**Talys**

Pacific wrote:
I think it's something that a lot of, certainly the more veteran, customers feel and you certainly start to pick up on once you have been around for a while. Of course, like everything else, it bothers people to either a greater or lesser extent.

See, I think this is the core of it.

I am totally desensitized to companies that make stuff I like, not really valuing me beyond my potential as a customer. A fantastic example is Blizzard Entertainment. I **love** their products. I will happily give them money for their next Warcraft, StarCraft, Diablo, Hearthstone, etc. product, despite knowing that their customer service is terrible, and that they barely listen to their customers. To me, a great product is much more important than the company "treating me as an valued individual", or whatever. I really don't care what the corporate culture is at a company that I'm consuming products of, unless they're horribly abusing their employees, doing something illegal, or the like.

By the way, I have corresponded with people inside GW other than customer service for various reasons. To a person, they have always been nice folks, and happy to just chat about models, 40k, and so on.

**agnosto**

Lanrak wrote:
Here is just an example of why people buying from GW are being 'suckered'.

If you buy a £50 box of the brand new Assault marines.
Do you know how much it cost GW plc research develop manufacture (including ALL associated overheads.)and pack this product ready to be transported to the shops?
£12.

Other companies basically add the logistic cost on to this price.(To ship the product to retailers and wholesale.)
And double this cost to arrive at the RRP..
Eg £12 +£1. logistic cost = £13 This is doubled to £26. RRP.
The retailer gets £6.50 profit , and the manufacturer gets £6,50 profit, off each box sold. (25% gross profit for the manufacturer.)
As plastic manufacture is geared to maximize profit from economies of scale.(The more you sell the more profit you make.)
Pricing to sell lots and lots makes much more sense if you are selling a product as a 'social event' as war games are.
(The more people play and have good experiences the more you sell to more people!).

If the current £50 price tag was just £26, then they would sell quite a lot more product.

So where does the extra £23 per box that GW charges go ?GW plc are not making 46% gross profit ...Only about 12 %.

All the extra £23 pounds GW customers pay on a £50 box set pays for GW plc outdated ideas of owning their own retail chain.
As GW plc have been reducing the value of GW hobby shops by making them sub par one man retail outlets.

You are actually paying an extra £23 on a £50 box RRP to make up for GW plc incompetent corporate management.
This is what I like to call GWs incompetent management tax.

It's simple to determine really. You take the company's stated cost of sales and divide it by the gross profit. I'll skip to the end and just say that they're earning roughly 70% profit on products sold. This would include sale of such items as hobby supplies and books but excludes royalties and other income.

Source, GW full-year financials for previous year:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Games-Workshop-Group-14-combined-FINAL-cover-version.pdf

About 43% of sales are direct channel through their hobby stores, about 13% via website and 30something% through trade channels. So, 56% or more of sales will not have the detracting 40% trade discount cutting into profit but even considering trade discounts, they're making 30% profit average per items sold.

**Talizvar**

The label of "sucker" will just not go anywhere constructively.
Some stuff you can only get from GW (mainly the grim-dark models) so you will get dinged for IP and their estimation of a monopoly supply and demand.
From my own estimation they are pushing that limit: Do I get the new assault marines or a "few" items for Star Wars Armada?
Hard thing to gauge that gaming bang for your buck, what genre means more to you in a monetary way?

I am progressively being distracted away from GW with things a little more shiny and "seems" to give me stuff of more "value" to me than what GW has on offer.

I have a mature enough collection I am in no hurry to get the latest hotness of GW and as the prices climb for less models or stuff in general they will just decrease in relevancy.

The OP title for this should be "Making GW change, before they cease to matter.".
Yeah Kirby, just keep cannibalizing the company to pay yourself those dividends until there is no more and pull out that golden parachute.

**Thunderfrog**

Azreal13 wrote:
Talys wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
I don't think you're in a position to judge that dude.

Did you mean me? That I'm not in a position to judge whether I (or jah, for example), is a sucker?

That seems like an odd thing to say, as it's just a matter of opinion.

Yeah, it's an opinion that one isn't really in a position to make a call on for oneself.

I very much doubt anyone considers themselves a sucker.

Talys wrote:[I judge a company by how the *actually* treat me

That's a really, really bad metric. You mean you'd heartily endorse "Dirty Bombs R Us" as long as they had good CSRs on the phone and replying to emails?

I have to agree with Talys.

Expecting a company to care - at all - about the customers who use it's products reeks of entitlement. Also, you misquoted PT Barnum. His sucker reference was to folks who paid a nickel to see the snake lady, then got disappointed it wasn't really a snake lady. He always felt sure of his entertainment under the big top and its value.

What matters when you spend is you get what you expect. If you are spending anyways, knowing you aren't getting that, then sure. Sucker. But if all you expect from GW is a kit of 5 nice looking marines for 40$, and you get it, then you aren't being suckered. You're are being content, unthrifty, but content.

**TheAuldGrump**

Azreal13 wrote:
Talys wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
I don't think you're in a position to judge that dude.

Did you mean me? That I'm not in a position to judge whether I (or jah, for example), is a sucker?

That seems like an odd thing to say, as it's just a matter of opinion.

Yeah, it's an opinion that one isn't really in a position to make a call on for oneself.

I very much doubt anyone considers themselves a sucker.

Actually, I very much did call myself a sucker - in particular because I bought food while at an amusement park, and that specifically I bought fried dough.

The mark up on fried dough, as a percentage, makes GW seem reasonable - yet at the same time, I 'only' bought about eight dollars of fried dough - far less than even one box of space marines. (I bought two and a half orders- I split one order with my girlfriend, and let her steal another half from me....)

Between my last post and this one,my girlfriend sent me a link to that comic... it seemed applicable....

The Auld Grump

**jah-joshua**

@TheAuldGrup: good reply, even though i still disagree with your rationale

...

you misunderstand me, though...
i am not a gamer, and never have been...
i am a painter...

i have nothing to say about the rules being good, or bad...
i don't use them...
i don't feel like i am on some merry-go-round of must-buy products, as dictated to me by Kirby and Crew...
i don't feel like i have been suckered in any way...
i have had over 30 years of enjoyment from the books and minis that GW sell, and still enjoy the products just as much as i did as a kid...
just because someone else thinks i'm a sucker, if i don't feel like one, which one of us is right???

one thing that i think people overlook in these debates, is that GW is not a person...
i don't have to like Kirby & Crew, their descisions, the direction they take the company, or their contempt for their customers...
i do like the people who work the phones, man the shops, design, sculpt, and cast the models, make the artwork, and write the books...

i am not going to boycott a company, that has never done anything wrong to me personally, just because the management are greedy jerks...
especially not at the expense of taking away all of the good jobs the company provides, and the products that i enjoy...

cheers
jah

**TheAuldGrump**

jah-joshua wrote:
@TheAuldGrup: good reply, even though i still disagree with your rationale...

you misunderstand me, though...
i am not a gamer, and never have been...
i am a painter...

i have nothing to say about the rules being good, or bad...
i don't use them...
i don't feel like i am on some merry-go-round of must-buy products, as dictated to me by Kirby and Crew...
i don't feel like i have been suckered in any way...
i have had over 30 years of enjoyment from the books and minis that GW sell, and still enjoy the products just as much as i did as a kid...
just because someone else thinks i'm a sucker, if i don't feel like one, which one of us is right???

one thing that i think people overlook in these debates, is that GW is not a person...
i don't have to like Kirby & Crew, their descisions, the direction they take the company, or their contempt for their customers...
i do like the people who work the phones, man the shops, design, sculpt, and cast the models, make the artwork, and write the books...

i am not going to boycott a company, that has never done anything wrong to me personally, just because the management are greedy jerks...
especially not at the expense of taking away all of the good jobs the company provides, and the products that i enjoy...

cheers
jah

As I said - it just means that you are an informed sucker - you do know that the company is treating its fans (if not you specifically) poorly.

And I am willing to boycott a company that is managed by greedy jerks.

That insults their fan base.

That indulges in frivolous lawsuits while attempting to be IP bullies.

That refuses to properly playtest and balance their rules.

That refuses to acknowledge a changing paradigm, and make the needed adjustments. then brags about it.

That provides a shrinking benefit for investing in the game.

And that engages in deliberate price gouging.

As for the folks working for the company that will be impacted when the company fails... the sculptors and artists are the lucky ones - they will not remain unemployed long.

The game designers... will likely fair less well - and given the recent crop of rules... deservedly so.

So, I am afraid that my reaction to GW failing is to shrug and say 'we all saw that coming'.

The biggest problem that I have is that Kirby has done a very good job of lining his parachute with gold.

I am more saddened by the impact on the 3rd party companies that support the GW games - and often do a better job of doing so than GW themselves.

The Auld Grump

**Lanrak**

@agnosto.
GW plc admit to a 76% gross profit before the cost of logistic and retail is factored in.
(GW sources tell me logistics runs at about 10% of gross profits.)
So without the cost of GWs own retail chain they would have a nett profit of about 68%.
After the cost of GW s own retail chain is taken out , they are left with less than 13% nett profit.

So the GW plc retail chain cost them 55% of their turn over.And only generates 43% of sales.
They spend £68M on their own shops to get £53M worth of sales.(To generate appx £38M profit.)

They spend less than £2M on the remaining sales channels that generate £70M of sales .(To generate appx £42M profit.)

So if GW did not have its own expensive retail chain and just sold through independent retailers.
They could halve the retail price , and make more nett profit due to increased sales and massively reduced overheads...

**agnosto**

Lanrak wrote:
@agnosto.
GW plc admit to a 76% gross profit before the cost of logistic and retail is factored in.
(GW sources tell me logistics runs at about 10% of gross profits.)
So without the cost of GWs own retail chain they would have a nett profit of about 68%.
After the cost of GW s own retail chain is taken out , they are left with less than 13% nett profit.

So the GW plc retail chain cost them 55% of their turn over.And only generates 43% of sales.
They spend £68M on their own shops to get £53M worth of sales.(To generate appx £38M profit.)

They spend less than £2M on the remaining sales channels that generate £70M of sales .(To generate appx £42M profit.)

So if GW did not have its own expensive retail chain and just sold through independent retailers.
They could halve the retail price , and make more nett profit due to increased sales and massively reduced overheads...

The numbers that I pulled from their financial statement IS pre-retail chain cost but the question was how much profit each model is sold for and what I stated takes production, manufacturing and storage into consideration.

What's obvious to you and I apparently escapes current management. I suspect these are the same people who feel that a UK business model will work in every market.

**jah-joshua**

@TheAuldGrump: like i said, i don't feel like a sucker in any way, shape, or form...
if you insist that i am, that's your opinion...
i will simply disagree with you, and walk away...

i happen to like some of the minis that GW makes, enjoy the Black Library novels, and think Forge World is awesome...
i will continue to buy the things that i like, and not buy the things i don't..
simple...

cheers
jah

**SirDonlad**

agnosto wrote:

Source, GW full-year financials for previous year:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Games-Workshop-Group-14-combined-FINAL-cover-version.pdf

VERY intresting reading there. Doesn't Kirby come across as "that 80's guy" from futurama episode 'future stock'?

"Don't you worry about >blank<; Let me worry about >blank<!"

>

**Vyxen**

I'm with Thunderfrog, Jah-Joshua, and Talys. How can you call someone who is happy spending money on something they want being a sucker? That sounds so silly. I spend about $200 every month on new books from Amazon. That's almost $2,500 a year, which is way, way more than I'll ever spend on Warhammer 40,000 or any other game, and the cost of printing isn't even a teenie tiny portion of the sticker price.

Each set of wedding photos is WAY more expensive than the paper to print them on. How about a wedding dress? They cost many, many more times the cost of fabric. You could buy just as functional clothing at Walmart!

Some of you people just crack me up!

**Azreal13**

What if I told you that the people that print those books you love are not only charging you a massive markup over cost, but they're laughing at you for buying them?

**jah-joshua**

Azreal13 wrote:
What if I told you that the people that print those books you love are not only charging you a massive markup over cost, but they're laughing at you for buying them?

i would believe you...
then i would buy what makes me happy, at the best price i can get it for, and enjoy something that brings way more pleasure than money in my pocket does...

cheers
jah

**Azreal13**

See, you're an informed sucker, just like Grump said!

**SirDonlad**

I heard that you're a 'sucker' if you don't play public enemy on your radio show...

Still looking through that GW report; the guy before kirby got £569000 as 'compensation for loss of office' (!!)

And kirby gets paid £450k per annum! for contrast, our primeminister gets paid ~120k per annum...

**agnosto**

Different strokes for different folks. I prefer money in the bank (or stock portfolio in my case) than otherwise. I stopped buying hobby related materials after the birth of my daughter, almost a year now....gosh, and instead converting my hobby budget away into stock; after a few choice investments, I could cash out now and buy a whole fleet of mantas or just use the dividends to buy an army every year and continue to put more into stock as I go, the best of both worlds and I only had to delay satisfaction a year to get here.

**jah-joshua**

you are free to that opinion, Az, but i disagree...
if i didn't buy any products in this world that has a high mark-up, or was run by execs that snidely laugh behind their customers' backs, i'm sure i would be left naked, holding nothing...
it's a cruel world...

again, if i don't feel like a sucker, then i'm not one...
you, or anyone, else calling me a sucker for doing what makes me happy is just you being rude...

i say that i work all the angles, to get the best deal available, in the price rise thread, and i get treated like a hypocrite who doesn't really support the guys in the design studio...
i say i only buy what i like in this thread, and get called a sucker...
it's just rude and unnecessary...
you guys are obviously not interested in the viewpoint of anyone else, so there isn't really much point in a discussion...

cheers
jah

**agnosto**

SirDonlad wrote:
I heard that you're a 'sucker' if you don't play public enemy on your radio show...

Still looking through that GW report; the guy before kirby got £569000 as 'compensation for loss of office' (!!)

And kirby gets paid £450k per annum! for contrast, our primeminister gets paid ~120k per annum...

Have you got to the part where he gave himself a 28% raise? Very generous for a company that's losing money.

**jah-joshua**

agnosto wrote:
Different strokes for different folks. I prefer money in the bank (or stock portfolio in my case) than otherwise. I stopped buying hobby related materials after the birth of my daughter, almost a year now....gosh, and instead converting my hobby budget away into stock; after a few choice investments, I could cash out now and buy a whole fleet of mantas or just use the dividends to buy an army every year and continue to put more into stock as I go, the best of both worlds and I only had to delay satisfaction a year to get here.

see, now this is a reasonable response...
good on you, agnosto...

personally, i could die tomorrow out surfing 20-foot waves, so i enjoy what i have today...
i also happen to make a living painting models, which means that everything that i buy can turn a profit...
every model i buy is an investment

...

cheers
jah

**Vyxen**

Azreal13 wrote:
What if I told you that the people that print those books you love are not only charging you a massive markup over cost, but they're laughing at you for buying them?

I would tell you that you are crazy, because I assure you, Bantam Books or Random House doesn't laugh at its customers for, you know, buying books. I would also tell you that you're a person who doesn't like paying for nice things or that you don't like to read?

Since the latest Song and Fire and Ice book is translated into 40 languages at least some people agree that buying books is a worthwhile way to spend money.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

jah-joshua wrote:
personally, i could die tomorrow out surfing 20-foot waves, so i enjoy what i have today...
i also happen to make a living painting models, which means that everything that i buy can turn a profit...
every model i buy is an investment...

That is very neat, jah-joshua, and by the way, if I may say so, you have gorgeous models in your gallery! I hear you though. Leaving behind a fortune and not living a life without experiencing the things you want to experience is no way to live life. There has to be a responsible happy medium between spending all your money on frivolous things and spending none of your money on things that you want.

If you want and can afford Warhammer models or grilling cookbooks or a Naomi Novik novel, you should enjoy it!

**agnosto**

jah-joshua wrote:
agnosto wrote:
Different strokes for different folks. I prefer money in the bank (or stock portfolio in my case) than otherwise. I stopped buying hobby related materials after the birth of my daughter, almost a year now....gosh, and instead converting my hobby budget away into stock; after a few choice investments, I could cash out now and buy a whole fleet of mantas or just use the dividends to buy an army every year and continue to put more into stock as I go, the best of both worlds and I only had to delay satisfaction a year to get here.

see, now this is a reasonable response...
good on you, agnosto...

personally, i could die tomorrow out surfing 20-foot waves, so i enjoy what i have today...
i also happen to make a living painting models, which means that everything that i buy can turn a profit...
every model i buy is an investment...

cheers
jah

I get you, mainly because I used to feel the same way, but my daughter coming along forced me to start taking the long view on a lot of things. I will admit that I cheat now and again, usually when forgeworld makes something that I absolutely have to have. ;-). I also get that you have a business related to miniatures so you don't necessarily have the leisure of waiting to buy.

Like I said, different strokes for different folks, value is completely subjective and what's worth me spending money on will be completely useless to someone else. I spent $2000 building my own gaming PC and my wife just shook her head; conversely I can't fathom her infatuation with shoes and Coach purses... :-D

**Azreal13**

Vyxen wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:
What if I told you that the people that print those books you love are not only charging you a massive markup over cost, but they're laughing at you for buying them?

I would tell you that you are crazy, because I assure you, Bantam Books or Random House doesn't laugh at its customers for, you know, buying books. I would also tell you that you're a person who doesn't like paying for nice things or that you don't like to read?

Since the latest Song and Fire and Ice book is translated into 40 languages at least some people agree that buying books is a worthwhile way to spend money.

My point exactly.

Random House or Bantam don't mock the people who buy their products because they love them, because they appreciate that it is those people who keep the lights on and their children in shoes.

There's a compelling body of evidence, albeit largely anecdotal, that key senior staff at GW view their customers in a decidedly less sensible and appreciative light, and it is that attitude to people who deign to give them a massive amount more cash than common sense would suggest is appropriate for their product which prompted Grump's whole "suckers" commentary.

**Talys**

agnosto wrote:
Like I said, different strokes for different folks, value is completely subjective and what's worth me spending money on will be completely useless to someone else. I spent $2000 building my own gaming PC and my wife just shook her head; conversely I can't fathom her infatuation with shoes and Coach purses... :-D

LOL. Let's not get into handbags and shoooooos. Without even getting into jewelry, my wife's handbag and shoe collection dwarf 30 years of hobby collecting.

On the bright side, she can never say anything about me spending $50 on a box of 5 space marines.

If we are ever both unemployed and in dire straights, she can sell her barely-used handbags and I can ebay my new-in-box GW and PP collection